urbanSTL

downtownguy wrote:whats going on with the westgate development auctioning off about 30% of their building? what prompted this? I hope this isn't going to be the norm...

There was another thread about this. I am not sure what the cause behind this was, but it did raise some serious questions about how far west the loft demand will go.

On the other hand, there are quite a few lofts left at our building also. Hopefully, spring will determine new owners (and neighbors) for us

Not to mention the closing of 40. That's projected to have a nice little impact on loft sales, too.

I know. That will be ugly. It will put a LOT of load on other highways too.

The "prospective" good news is, "yuppies" who actually live in the burbs and work in the city (and there are LOTS) may be inclined to buy/lease lofts, which may actually spur the sales this year.

Then again........

One rumor...and again take it for what its worth...regarding wesgate is that one of the investors needed to cash out of the project and sales were not going as quickly as planned, so the McGowans needed to liquidate to get this investor his money.



there are several problems with westgate that we don't face at the ventana...namely



1. Westgate isnt near anything...you can't walk anywhere fromt here unless you work at AG edwards



2. the finishes there are kind of...well...less than premium



3. we arent across the street from Sam Light pawn shop



I really don't think this is or will be the norm. The ventana is 50%sold at the time of occupancy, that is actually pretty good. Plus now, when people are shown units, they will be able to move in immediately which opens up an entirely new market. We forget that most people don't want to finacially commit to something that is years away, like we did with the Ventana.



I will say that if I lived in Westgate or in one of the buildings close by 2020, Packard, Adler, Motor Lofts, Iwould be very concerned as to what this "auction" was going to do to the comps in the area which would affect appraisals for sale or refinancing.

mophipsi wrote:One rumor...and again take it for what its worth...regarding wesgate is that one of the investors needed to cash out of the project and sales were not going as quickly as planned, so the McGowans needed to liquidate to get this investor his money.



there are several problems with westgate that we don't face at the ventana...namely



1. Westgate isnt near anything...you can't walk anywhere fromt here unless you work at AG edwards



2. the finishes there are kind of...well...less than premium



3. we arent across the street from Sam Light pawn shop



I really don't think this is or will be the norm. The ventana is 50%sold at the time of occupancy, that is actually pretty good. Plus now, when people are shown units, they will be able to move in immediately which opens up an entirely new market. We forget that most people don't want to finacially commit to something that is years away, like we did with the Ventana.



I will say that if I lived in Westgate or in one of the buildings close by 2020, Packard, Adler, Motor Lofts, Iwould be very concerned as to what this "auction" was going to do to the comps in the area which would affect appraisals for sale or refinancing.

If I were in one of those other buildings I really would not be worried about Westgate pricing effecting my comps. For one thing, appraisals are just an opinion and no matter what is going on always seem to be where they need to be to get the borrower into their new home. And as pricing does tend to have averages down here, it is still kind of all over the board. There are a lot of variables that go into a loft as they can all be very very different from one another.



A good example is Elder Shirt. That building has had numerous resales at a much lower price than buildings within a stones throw. But it has not brought down prices for those buidlings. Elder faces a somewhat similar location challenge as Westgate (even though it is much closer to the action) and is considered in my opinion to not be a fair comparison to everything else.

That is an excellent point (about Elder shirts sales not affecting other prices)



The quality at Ventana is WAY above par. I am very happy with the quality. Ventana also has some rare features.



Unobstrcuted view of North city and IL.

Complete regut and high grade construction.

Opposite a building which employs security guards

Complete secured indoor parking (OK.... maybe not "so" rare)

Rooftop pool, with party grade club house on top.



All in all.... A happy owner

Hi, all.



Well, I moved in a few more boxes of mine into my unit this evening. This is when I made the following observation again. The parking garage ramp (basement level of parking garage) seems to be a little steep. I say this because my car, along with my girlfriend's car, both get scratched at the underside of the car when entering the parking garage going down the ramp. As I see it, there is a time when the front wheels, I suppose, lose contact with the surface of the ramp just for a moment, causing the underside of the car to fall and hit the "street level-ramp junction." It's happened twice already. For those that live already in their units, have any of you experienced this? If not, I still won't be surprised. However I'm sure others will experience this as well. What are your observations? I'm sure scratching the underside of your car every day at the same spot can't be a good thing. What do you all think about the parking garage too in general? Aside from the tight parking spaces, it seems that the garage is heated and I really like that.

BLUsky7 wrote:Hi, all.



Well, I moved in a few more boxes of mine into my unit this evening. This is when I made the following observation again. The parking garage ramp (basement level of parking garage) seems to be a little steep. I say this because my car, along with my girlfriend's car, both get scratched at the underside of the car when entering the parking garage going down the ramp. As I see it, there is a time when the front wheels, I suppose, lose contact with the surface of the ramp just for a moment, causing the underside of the car to fall and hit the "street level-ramp junction." It's happened twice already. For those that live already in their units, have any of you experienced this? If not, I still won't be surprised. However I'm sure others will experience this as well. What are your observations? I'm sure scratching the underside of your car every day at the same spot can't be a good thing. What do you all think about the parking garage too in general? Aside from the tight parking spaces, it seems that the garage is heated and I really like that.

Same thing happened at Railway with the ramps. In fact, a friend of mine who lives over there made the comment that you all were going to have the same problems based on how he saw your ramps going in. Guess he was right.



They contacted the developer and the problem was corrected fairly quickly. They just filled the transition in a bit with either concrete or asphalt (do not remember) and that stopped the cars from scraping.

Yes, we had the same problem...although for now we are parking ont he main level instead of the basement becasue there is construction material in our actual spot...



both of our cars scrape coming out of the basement...

bsharmastl wrote:That is an excellent point (about Elder shirts sales not affecting other prices)



The quality at Ventana is WAY above par. I am very happy with the quality. Ventana also has some rare features.



Unobstrcuted view of North city and IL.

Complete regut and high grade construction.

Opposite a building which employs security guards

Complete secured indoor parking (OK.... maybe not "so" rare)

Rooftop pool, with party grade club house on top.



All in all.... A happy owner

The Ventana building is great and the finishes are probably premium as well, but as far as the amenities listed as being rare...



Unobstrcuted view of North city and IL.

**Is this such a plus? I agree that due to the location Westgate is not CURRENTLY the most pedestrian friendly location, but not everyone cares to be in the heart of the "action". I'd argue that from the rooftop, Westgate may have the best unobstructed view of downtown.

Complete regut and high grade construction.

**Again, maybe not the BASE level finishes of other projects, but solid contruction and the ability to upgrade...

Opposite a building which employs security guards

**As does Westgate

Complete secured indoor parking (OK.... maybe not "so" rare)

**As does Westgate

Rooftop pool, with party grade club house on top.

**As does Westgate



What the public is unaware of, is that nearly all of Westgates units were reserved at one point in time. Either with earnest money or contracts. I would suggest that money people got out, not because of location, but because of delays.

STLTapper9 wrote:

bsharmastl wrote:That is an excellent point (about Elder shirts sales not affecting other prices)



The quality at Ventana is WAY above par. I am very happy with the quality. Ventana also has some rare features.



Unobstrcuted view of North city and IL.

Complete regut and high grade construction.

Opposite a building which employs security guards

Complete secured indoor parking (OK.... maybe not "so" rare)

Rooftop pool, with party grade club house on top.



All in all.... A happy owner

The Ventana building is great and the finishes are probably premium as well, but as far as the amenities listed as being rare...



Unobstrcuted view of North city and IL.

**Is this such a plus? I agree that due to the location Westgate is not CURRENTLY the most pedestrian friendly location, but not everyone cares to be in the heart of the "action". I'd argue that from the rooftop, Westgate may have the best unobstructed view of downtown.

Complete regut and high grade construction.

**Again, maybe not the BASE level finishes of other projects, but solid contruction and the ability to upgrade...

Opposite a building which employs security guards

**As does Westgate

Complete secured indoor parking (OK.... maybe not "so" rare)

**As does Westgate

Rooftop pool, with party grade club house on top.

**As does Westgate



What the public is unaware of, is that nearly all of Westgates units were reserved at one point in time. Either with earnest money or contracts. I would suggest that money people got out, not because of location, but because of delays.

I've got to agree with everything you've said. Long ago when I was first looking at lofts, Westagte was nearly completely reserved/contracted. It was only after the crazy delays did the occupancy drop. Ventana on the otherhand was never over 50% occupancy. Partially because, the 2004 martket and the 2006 market are two different animals. Partially because the price point for this building has always been out of sync with the market.

I wouldnt call the price point for the Ventana out of sync. It is slightly higher than comparable other properties, but offered more amenities at the "base level" upgrades were also incredibly reasonable...



an example of this is that the cabinets they used as a base at the ventana are nicer than the upgrades at every other property that we looked at. Similarly the cost to upgrade to granite was cheaper here than anywhere else and the granite they used is very heavy duty, most other developments used 2 cm or 3 cm granite. everything from the bathroom fixtures to the appliances are great quality.



We are moving here from 2020 Washington and that building is just simply a dump, but the finishes there are not even inthe same league as the Ventanas. We ahve been on several of the loft tours and what brought us to the VEntana was the quality of the materials and construction compared to other projects.



Jacob, Paric and all of the subcontractors have delivered with flying colors.

mophipsi wrote:I wouldnt call the price point for the Ventana out of sync. It is slightly higher than comparable other properties, but offered more amenities at the "base level" upgrades were also incredibly reasonable...



an example of this is that the cabinets they used as a base at the ventana are nicer than the upgrades at every other property that we looked at. Similarly the cost to upgrade to granite was cheaper here than anywhere else and the granite they used is very heavy duty, most other developments used 2 cm or 3 cm granite. everything from the bathroom fixtures to the appliances are great quality.



We are moving here from 2020 Washington and that building is just simply a dump, but the finishes there are not even inthe same league as the Ventanas. We ahve been on several of the loft tours and what brought us to the VEntana was the quality of the materials and construction compared to other projects.



Jacob, Paric and all of the subcontractors have delivered with flying colors.

I haven't looked at the Ventana website for a long time, but back when I was looking into buying there there were a number of issues. I have no issues with their finish work. What made the prices seem out of sync were things like parking and bathrooms.



Parking was initially not included and was 10k extra on top of already high prices. Also they originaly only had 40 or so in building spots, and wanted to put the rest of the cars in an adjacent lot. This made me skeptickal that they would have the building any where near completely sold out during occupancy(looks like my fears were correct). They wised up and changed this I believe.



Also, most of the units were essentially 2br 1ba units, and ith prices $20-$30 a sq. ft. higher than other properties. That second bathroom I think is what makes the prices seem so high by comparison. Ammenities are great, but a second bathroom would be used daily where as a pool would not. That's where the gap is forming.



Another concern was that they had sold an entire floor (the 2nd) to one business. I was worried what would happen if that business decided to leave(again my fears were correct).



Since all of these things happened, most of the problems were resolved, and though the pricing is still high(above market), it isn't as high as it once was.



What's really hurting your sales is the Syndicate building. For the same amount of money you have always been able to buy into the Syndacite building at 9th floor and up(Ventana tops out at 7 floors I think). They raised expectation on what ammenities you can get for the dollar.



All of this combined is why the building sits at 50% occupancy while others are in the 85%+ range during closings. It has nothing to do with the quality of the building(the building itself is AWESOME). It has to do with Jacob having no clue as to the market value of a STL loft.

elitist,

where do you live at downtown?

It wouldn't take much research on this forum to figure it out. If you think I'm trying to push Syndicate, no I do not live or have a unit reserved there. People seemd to be kind of condescending to Westgate in this thread for some reason. I'm just saying don't throw stones.

I disagree with you on a few things...



first, the reason aprking was originally $10000 and not included was that they were going to make the entire 1st floor retail and only the basement would have indoor parking...this would be about 40 spots, so they were for sale. At that point hey wanted to buy the lot behind or across from the ventana and build a garage with first floor retail but couldnt get the owners to sell the lots. At this point they brought all of the parking in and included a space with each unit and adjusted the prices.



Second, on the second bathroom...we actually prefer the one batroom setup at the ventana...the powder rooma nd shower/bath are all separated by pocket doors, but you don't lose square footage to a second bathroom...instead more fo that square footage is in our living space. We would not use a second bathroom daily, we would most likely not even use it monthly.



I believe that Jacob has done a very good job, they stumbled a couple of times, but this was their first project. They are not finished with all of the unoccupied units yet, once they are, I am confident they will sell well. I have lived in a loft done by pyramid and one done by Jacob, there is no comparison. I would gladly pay a premium for the sound insulation efforts and quality materials that Jacob used.

mophipsi wrote:I disagree with you on a few things...



Second, on the second bathroom...we actually prefer the one batroom setup at the ventana...the powder rooma nd shower/bath are all separated by pocket doors, but you don't lose square footage to a second bathroom...instead more fo that square footage is in our living space. We would not use a second bathroom daily, we would most likely not even use it monthly.

I think you're making Urban Elitist's point for him: of course those in the Ventana like the single bathroom layout - that's why you all bought there. But UE's saying that the majority of people don't seem to agree with you (that's one of the reason Ventana is half full at closings).

JimJim15 wrote:I think you're making Urban Elitist's point for him: of course those in the Ventana like the single bathroom layout - that's why you all bought there. But UE's saying that the majority of people don't seem to agree with you (that's one of the reason Ventana is half full at closings).

Exactaly. My point is building out second bathrooms costs upwards of 10k. So if they go with the no 2nd bathroom layout, that's fine...but it should be 10k cheaper..not 20k more expensive. In many buildings, if you get rid of your second bathroom, they will credit you back the cost of building it out. Syndicate, for example, does credit backs.

A second bathroom can take up as liitle as 50 square feet so really does not give you all that much more living space if you eliminate it. I think the developers that don't do units with two baths are just trying to cut their costs.



Part of the reason that prices at Ventana and Bogen are a bit higher is because the developer paid a ton of money for the buildings.

I think the reason for the Ventana at 50% is the price differential could not be appreciated without seeing the end product and it's quality. I am sure they will start selling out as this (#$@&(#$& cold weather warms up a little.



Westgate is a nice building, but out of the true loft zone. Even the Ventana is at the edge, but still within the reach of all the fun. I repeat that I CAN WALK back home from my Cards, Rams and Blues games.



I also LOVE the view of the North city and the church steeples. McKinley bridge looks AWESOME. In my opinion this is the TRUE differentiator and was the clincher for me.

bsharmastl wrote:I think the reason for the Ventana at 50% is the price differential could not be appreciated without seeing the end product and it's quality. I am sure they will start selling out as this (#$@&(#$& cold weather warms up a little.



Westgate is a nice building, but out of the true loft zone. Even the Ventana is at the edge, but still within the reach of all the fun. I repeat that I CAN WALK back home from my Cards, Rams and Blues games.



I also LOVE the view of the North city and the church steeples. McKinley bridge looks AWESOME. In my opinion this is the TRUE differentiator and was the clincher for me.

Agreed on the views. If you're up high enough to see the entire north side, it has a ton of interesting things out their to check out. I had more of an urban view in my last place and now have a higher northwest view and love being able to see all the sun, various cloud formations, sunsets, blue skies, and all else that falls in between. And yes, I am right behind you guys at the Ventana (great looking building by the way) and I too have zero problems walking to any three of the stadiums, City Grocer's, the Landing, whatever.

I also think the news of the BPV getting final approval (for the final vote) today is an EXCELLENT indicator of the prospects of DT in the mid to long term, which will reflect on existing developments.



And of course my meds may be responsible for me claiming that the 40 hwy reconstruction may actually spur loft sales (specially if BPV brings in MORE high paying jobs in it's commercial units).



One thing about the balconies at the Ventana. Standing on them, the view is awesome, until you see STRAIGHT down at a seven floor drop. Slightly freaky. My kids abolutely REFUSED to set foot on it.

irocktheparty2000 wrote:

bsharmastl wrote:I think the reason for the Ventana at 50% is the price differential could not be appreciated without seeing the end product and it's quality. I am sure they will start selling out as this (#$@&(#$& cold weather warms up a little.



Westgate is a nice building, but out of the true loft zone. Even the Ventana is at the edge, but still within the reach of all the fun. I repeat that I CAN WALK back home from my Cards, Rams and Blues games.



I also LOVE the view of the North city and the church steeples. McKinley bridge looks AWESOME. In my opinion this is the TRUE differentiator and was the clincher for me.

Agreed on the views. If you're up high enough to see the entire north side, it has a ton of interesting things out their to check out. I had more of an urban view in my last place and now have a higher northwest view and love being able to see all the sun, various cloud formations, sunsets, blue skies, and all else that falls in between. And yes, I am right behind you guys at the Ventana (great looking building by the way) and I too have zero problems walking to any three of the stadiums, City Grocer's, the Landing, whatever.

I don't think anyone is disputing that the Ventana is a great building. But it baffles me to hear people so focused on the "loft zone" and what defines that area as of today. Isn't the "zone" too young to put such parameters on it? How big was it ten years ago...five years ago? Regardless of what others may think, I believe the "zone" will grow. Quit frankly, at this point in time, there isn't enough commercialized growth to sustain a true city lifestyle anywhere in the City. I think many people, just as I, moved with the belief that it could and would happen. Yes, there are numerous restaurants in the "zone", but what else? City Grocers is convenient, but I can't image too many people use it as their primary source of groceries. You mentioned being able to walk to the landing. Just as easy as you may do that, can't others make a comparable trek from the Western edge to the "zone"? I live on the Western edge and walked to at least 3 baseball games last year. ScottTrade would be even easier. I just have a tough time believing that developments such as The Edge, Adler, Majestic Stove, Westgate, Motor, Packard, and GEW won't help the "zone" grow Westward. The Tap Room, Nectar, Pepper Lounge, Everest Cafe, Imo's, etc., the list goes on. Just recently, the owners of the Tin Can in Tower Grove purchased Panama Reds on Locust in an attempt to capitalize on the Downtown West growth. Rumor also has it that Jim Edmonds purchased a building across the street from Panama Reds to start a night club. Yes, my rant has been a bit lengthly, but I cannot believe pso many of the general public don't see the Western Loft District as a viable alternative to being in the heart of downtown. If it's true and the Western edge can't sustain, then there are going to be a lot of unhappy and busted developers in the coming years.

I absolutely do not dispute that the area westwards will grow and keep on growing. My point was that "currently", it is out of the loft zone (which even the Ventana is nearly out of).

There is a differnece in the "walk to games" between U and I. I have season tickets for Cards and we make it to at the least 40 games. Also, all Rams games and a lot of Blues games. For me (personally), much further than 20th st. would have been an issue (Yes..... I guess I am lazy).

Personally, Westgate (and several others mentioned) are integral in bridging the gap between DT and Grand in the next few years.