Do you propose demolition of mass early suburban housing from the 1940s and 1950s to be replaced by New Urbanism?
Suburban new urban renewal
Suburban new urban renewal
- 11K
^Excellent.
We'll all soon be protesting the wholesale demolition of these:
![]()
I'm somewhere in the middle on preservation so I wouldn't mind seeing some inner burbs bulldozed and attempted again.
We'll all soon be protesting the wholesale demolition of these:
I'm somewhere in the middle on preservation so I wouldn't mind seeing some inner burbs bulldozed and attempted again.
- 43
Doesn't $70 million seem like a lot??
Huge TIF is sought for former Noah's Ark
By Mark Schlinkmann
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
12/04/2006
ST. CHARLES — Four months ago, city officials approved annexation, rezoning and other steps needed for the massive commercial-residential complex proposed by developer Greg Whittaker to replace the vacant Noah's Ark restaurant and motel.
Now comes what may be a politically more volatile task: deciding whether to give Whittaker a nearly $70 million tax subsidy to help build the $385 million project.
An 11-member city tax increment financing commission may vote later this month on a plan that would devote $65.5 million — a portion of new local sales and property tax dollars generated by the project over as long as 23 years — to help pay for related improvements such as streets, sewers and garages.
If approved by the commission and the City Council, that would become the largest TIF plan in the city's history and one of the biggest in St. Charles County.
Advocates say that amount of aid is needed to spur a project with the size, ambiance — and long-term tax-producing impact — of the type Whittaker wants to build at the pivotal location southeast of the exchange at Interstate 70 and South Fifth Street. Opponents say that subsidy is just too much.
In describing the project, Whittaker said, "I've been saying a Clayton feel with a St. Charles style."
Among other things, the high-density Plaza at Noah's Ark calls for an 18-story residential tower, a string of shorter condo buildings with lower-floor shops and restaurants, a 10-to-14-floor upscale hotel, a six-to-eight-screen movie theater and an outdoor ice rink.
"I'm looking at a site where virtually nothing has happened for 20 years," said Tom Cunningham, a lawyer and TIF expert who is advising the city on the issue.
"It has environmental problems, access problems, grading problems, land assembly problems. If there ever was a poster child for a blighted site, this is the one."
While Cunningham represents the city, his fees are paid by the developer.
County Executive-elect Steve Ehlmann contends the plan would provide unfair subsidized competition to existing businesses and shortchange the financially pressed St. Charles School District.
Ehlmann argued that the district could gain extra tax money from a less costly project that doesn't need TIF aid.
"This is really about the schools first and foremost," said Ehlmann, who will succeed Joe Ortwerth as executive next month. Ehlmann's wife teaches at St. Charles High School, and one of their sons is a student in the district.
Ortwerth also opposes the TIF, said Matt Brown, a county tax official and an Ortwerth appointee to the commission.
Another skeptic, City Councilman Michael Weller of the 5th Ward, said he likes the project but that the TIF amount should be cut to around $35 million to $40 million.
"There's not enough retail space in that development" to justify the larger amount, he said.
The Noah's Ark motel shut down in December 2002, about two years after the closing of the ark-shaped restaurant that had been a St. Charles fixture since 1968.
The 26.8-acre Whittaker proposal includes the warm-water pool and exercise facility planned for the site since 2004 by the nonprofit ShowMe Aquatics and Fitness organization, which promotes accessibility for the disabled.
Plans call for the Noah's Ark buildings, several rental homes and a vacant gas station to be demolished and for a QuikTrip convenience store and gas station on the site's southern end to be expanded.
A tentative TIF plan calls for the subsidy to cover clearing and grading, demolition, removal of asbestos from the old hotel and underground fuel tanks.
The subsidy also would pay for new streets and sidewalks, traffic signals, parks and plazas and sewer and water service improvements. Costs of relocating existing residents also would be covered.
By far the biggest TIF cost in the tentative plan would be $29 million to pay for part of the cost of several garages — the 1,827 spaces allocated for nonresidential uses. At commission members' request, the original proposal was modified so TIF money would not cover residential parking spaces, city planning manager Dave Tomek said.
Whittaker said he hopes to begin clearing the land next spring, with construction beginning in 2008. He said he expects the entire project to take six to seven years to build.
As for St. Charles schools, data compiled by Cunningham show the district getting additional money — through personal property tax gains due to the project that aren't diverted by a TIF. The gains would range from $63,595 in the first year of the TIF to $721,681 in the 23rd and final year.
Brad Goss, an attorney for Whittaker, said the developer also is willing to pay the school district an extra $1.25 million in lieu of taxes.
Meanwhile, Cunningham says he's projected a gain of only 24 students for the district due to new residents moving to the condos. He said that's based partly on a study of the types of people living in similar developments in Palm Beach County, Fla. Ehlmann questioned whether that's applicable to St. Charles County.
In addition to the TIF being considered by the city, Whittaker also plans to seek approval from state officials to allow $10 million to $12 million in state tax receipts generated by the project to pay for some improvements.
The developer also wants the city to set up a community improvement tax district at the site to raise an additional $10 million. That would come from a special property tax and a 1-cent sales tax paid by shoppers and restaurant users at the development.
Link
In describing the project, Whittaker said, "I've been saying a Clayton feel with a St. Charles style." I laughed out loud when I read that.
Huge TIF is sought for former Noah's Ark
By Mark Schlinkmann
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
12/04/2006
ST. CHARLES — Four months ago, city officials approved annexation, rezoning and other steps needed for the massive commercial-residential complex proposed by developer Greg Whittaker to replace the vacant Noah's Ark restaurant and motel.
Now comes what may be a politically more volatile task: deciding whether to give Whittaker a nearly $70 million tax subsidy to help build the $385 million project.
An 11-member city tax increment financing commission may vote later this month on a plan that would devote $65.5 million — a portion of new local sales and property tax dollars generated by the project over as long as 23 years — to help pay for related improvements such as streets, sewers and garages.
If approved by the commission and the City Council, that would become the largest TIF plan in the city's history and one of the biggest in St. Charles County.
Advocates say that amount of aid is needed to spur a project with the size, ambiance — and long-term tax-producing impact — of the type Whittaker wants to build at the pivotal location southeast of the exchange at Interstate 70 and South Fifth Street. Opponents say that subsidy is just too much.
In describing the project, Whittaker said, "I've been saying a Clayton feel with a St. Charles style."
Among other things, the high-density Plaza at Noah's Ark calls for an 18-story residential tower, a string of shorter condo buildings with lower-floor shops and restaurants, a 10-to-14-floor upscale hotel, a six-to-eight-screen movie theater and an outdoor ice rink.
"I'm looking at a site where virtually nothing has happened for 20 years," said Tom Cunningham, a lawyer and TIF expert who is advising the city on the issue.
"It has environmental problems, access problems, grading problems, land assembly problems. If there ever was a poster child for a blighted site, this is the one."
While Cunningham represents the city, his fees are paid by the developer.
County Executive-elect Steve Ehlmann contends the plan would provide unfair subsidized competition to existing businesses and shortchange the financially pressed St. Charles School District.
Ehlmann argued that the district could gain extra tax money from a less costly project that doesn't need TIF aid.
"This is really about the schools first and foremost," said Ehlmann, who will succeed Joe Ortwerth as executive next month. Ehlmann's wife teaches at St. Charles High School, and one of their sons is a student in the district.
Ortwerth also opposes the TIF, said Matt Brown, a county tax official and an Ortwerth appointee to the commission.
Another skeptic, City Councilman Michael Weller of the 5th Ward, said he likes the project but that the TIF amount should be cut to around $35 million to $40 million.
"There's not enough retail space in that development" to justify the larger amount, he said.
The Noah's Ark motel shut down in December 2002, about two years after the closing of the ark-shaped restaurant that had been a St. Charles fixture since 1968.
The 26.8-acre Whittaker proposal includes the warm-water pool and exercise facility planned for the site since 2004 by the nonprofit ShowMe Aquatics and Fitness organization, which promotes accessibility for the disabled.
Plans call for the Noah's Ark buildings, several rental homes and a vacant gas station to be demolished and for a QuikTrip convenience store and gas station on the site's southern end to be expanded.
A tentative TIF plan calls for the subsidy to cover clearing and grading, demolition, removal of asbestos from the old hotel and underground fuel tanks.
The subsidy also would pay for new streets and sidewalks, traffic signals, parks and plazas and sewer and water service improvements. Costs of relocating existing residents also would be covered.
By far the biggest TIF cost in the tentative plan would be $29 million to pay for part of the cost of several garages — the 1,827 spaces allocated for nonresidential uses. At commission members' request, the original proposal was modified so TIF money would not cover residential parking spaces, city planning manager Dave Tomek said.
Whittaker said he hopes to begin clearing the land next spring, with construction beginning in 2008. He said he expects the entire project to take six to seven years to build.
As for St. Charles schools, data compiled by Cunningham show the district getting additional money — through personal property tax gains due to the project that aren't diverted by a TIF. The gains would range from $63,595 in the first year of the TIF to $721,681 in the 23rd and final year.
Brad Goss, an attorney for Whittaker, said the developer also is willing to pay the school district an extra $1.25 million in lieu of taxes.
Meanwhile, Cunningham says he's projected a gain of only 24 students for the district due to new residents moving to the condos. He said that's based partly on a study of the types of people living in similar developments in Palm Beach County, Fla. Ehlmann questioned whether that's applicable to St. Charles County.
In addition to the TIF being considered by the city, Whittaker also plans to seek approval from state officials to allow $10 million to $12 million in state tax receipts generated by the project to pay for some improvements.
The developer also wants the city to set up a community improvement tax district at the site to raise an additional $10 million. That would come from a special property tax and a 1-cent sales tax paid by shoppers and restaurant users at the development.
Link
In describing the project, Whittaker said, "I've been saying a Clayton feel with a St. Charles style." I laughed out loud when I read that.
- 516
Sounds like the lawyer advising the city really has his facts together...
"I'm looking at a site where virtually nothing has happened for 20 years," said Tom Cunningham, a lawyer and TIF expert who is advising the city on the issue.
The Noah's Ark motel shut down in December 2002, about two years after the closing of the ark-shaped restaurant that had been a St. Charles fixture since 1968.
"I'm looking at a site where virtually nothing has happened for 20 years," said Tom Cunningham, a lawyer and TIF expert who is advising the city on the issue.
The Noah's Ark motel shut down in December 2002, about two years after the closing of the ark-shaped restaurant that had been a St. Charles fixture since 1968.
SMSPlanstu wrote:Do you propose demolition of mass early suburban housing from the 1940s and 1950s to be replaced by New Urbanism?
Suburban new urban renewal
Strip malls, yes. Northwest Plaza and the like, yes. Homes which are
historical, no. I consider homes from the 40s-50's to have value,
however the accompanying strip malls have no value. These can be
replaced with new urbanism.
New urbanism is not the new urban renewal. New Urbanism's weakness, at least in St. Louis, is that it exists too far from the core. It should, rather, replace the deteriorating inner ring suburbs as this new style would draw people to the core. Instead this unique design is drawing people away from the core to St. Charles. By placing it out in the exurbs, even if the community is urban, the wonderful community is effectively isolated from the rest of the region. What aspects that cannot be provided within the community, such as entertainment and culture, must then be acquired via auto commute to the City. By placing these developments nearer to the core, the commute could be lessened. Transit expansion/TOD could make this even better, yet exurban location makes this nearly impossible.
Consider we can do little regionally due to our fragmentation, competition is the only route, unless regionalism takes hold (another story for another day). St. Louis County needs some unique designs or it will loose out. Dardene Prarie is doing New Urbanism and we can expect more munis out West to do the same.
Here is an example: acquire property between Natural Bridge and Hanley
to Natural Bridge and Florissant and create a mixed use entertainment/residential district, similar in some ways to the Delmar Loop. With UMSL in walking distance, Express Scripts HQ nearby, the airport, and finally North Park, this could actually be viable. Shorten the lanes to one each way as Delmar does and this could be a walkable entertainment district actually making UMSL a real college experience. It would do a lot for the surrounding area.
- 1,054
I'm not sure if you ever thought much about it, but St. Charles City is the central city of St. Charles County and is a mini St. Louis. It is the central city for 350,000 people making it not on the core edge. The edge would be O'Fallon.
Florissant is a northern core city
Kirkwood is a southern core city
Chesterfield is trying to be the western one but lacks a central and historic center that is widely recognized.
Florissant is a northern core city
Kirkwood is a southern core city
Chesterfield is trying to be the western one but lacks a central and historic center that is widely recognized.
- 11K
"If there ever was a poster child for a blighted site, this is the one."
Wow. With this and Rahn I'm starting an "urban" development quote hall-of-fame.
- 52
Noah's Ark project has TIF panelist in a bind
The St. Charles School Board's decision to oppose a tax subsidy for a $385 million commercial-residential complex at the former Noah's Ark site has put one of its members into a touchy situation.
Bernie Weinrich, who was appointed by fellow board members to the city tax-increment financing commission, thinks the proposed $65.6 million subsidy is justified.
But he hasn't said whether he'll follow his own judgment or that of the School Board majority, which voted 4-3 last week to oppose the plan.
"I was in favor of the TIF side, which causes a great dilemma for me right now," he said Wednesday after a commission hearing.
He said he'd talk with the School Board president before deciding how to vote when the TIF commission meets again Jan. 10. That's when the commission is expected to make its recommendation to the City Council, which has the final say.
The School Board's other appointee to the commission, Assistant Superintendent Mick Willis, said he'll vote against the plan. The 11-member commission also includes six city appointees, two from St. Charles County government and one representing other taxing districts potentially affected by tax increment financing.
Under TIF plans, a portion of new local sales and property tax dollars generated by a development are used to help pay for related improvements such as streets, sewers, sidewalks and garages.
Supporters say the subsidy is needed to spur a project with the size, ambience and tax-producing impact of that planned by Whittaker Builders for the site at Interstate 70 and South Fifth Street.
Among other things, the high-density Plaza at Noah's Ark would have an 18-story condominium tower, a string of shorter residential buildings with lower-floor shops and restaurants, a 10-to-14-floor upscale hotel, a movie theater, an outdoor ice rink and six garages.
The vacant Noah's Ark motel was shut down in 2002, about two years after the closing of the ark-shaped restaurant that had been a fixture since 1968.
Brad Goss, an attorney for Whittaker, told the commission that the project would be "an appropriate front door" for the city and St. Charles County and would be unlike anything else in the county.
He and Tom Cunningham, an attorney for the city, asserted that it would produce significantly more tax revenue for schools and other local governments than "big-box" stores typically built in suburban areas — even during the period when much of it is diverted to the TIF.
"We want to do something that lasts," Goss said.
Cunningham said local governments would get $1.5 million annually in net extra tax revenue by the time the project is completed — in about five years.
An opponent, County Executive-elect Steve Ehlmann, contends that the school district and other governments could gain significant extra tax money as well from a less costly project that doesn't need tax increment financing. He didn't attend the hearing Wednesday.
Cunningham disputed that notion. He said the inaccessible streets, severe sloping on the site and the cost of removing asbestos from existing buildings make redevelopment unlikely without a major subsidy. He noted that no major development has occurred at the site for 25 years.
James Reid, a commercial property owner in the Main Street district, urged the commission to reduce the subsidy amount so that garages aren't covered. He said he didn't object to items that he said more clearly provide public benefit, such as streets.
City Councilman Joe Koester, 9th Ward, urged the commission "to come to some kind of compromise where we can have a win situation" for everyone.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/s ... +%22ark%22
The St. Charles School Board's decision to oppose a tax subsidy for a $385 million commercial-residential complex at the former Noah's Ark site has put one of its members into a touchy situation.
Bernie Weinrich, who was appointed by fellow board members to the city tax-increment financing commission, thinks the proposed $65.6 million subsidy is justified.
But he hasn't said whether he'll follow his own judgment or that of the School Board majority, which voted 4-3 last week to oppose the plan.
"I was in favor of the TIF side, which causes a great dilemma for me right now," he said Wednesday after a commission hearing.
He said he'd talk with the School Board president before deciding how to vote when the TIF commission meets again Jan. 10. That's when the commission is expected to make its recommendation to the City Council, which has the final say.
The School Board's other appointee to the commission, Assistant Superintendent Mick Willis, said he'll vote against the plan. The 11-member commission also includes six city appointees, two from St. Charles County government and one representing other taxing districts potentially affected by tax increment financing.
Under TIF plans, a portion of new local sales and property tax dollars generated by a development are used to help pay for related improvements such as streets, sewers, sidewalks and garages.
Supporters say the subsidy is needed to spur a project with the size, ambience and tax-producing impact of that planned by Whittaker Builders for the site at Interstate 70 and South Fifth Street.
Among other things, the high-density Plaza at Noah's Ark would have an 18-story condominium tower, a string of shorter residential buildings with lower-floor shops and restaurants, a 10-to-14-floor upscale hotel, a movie theater, an outdoor ice rink and six garages.
The vacant Noah's Ark motel was shut down in 2002, about two years after the closing of the ark-shaped restaurant that had been a fixture since 1968.
Brad Goss, an attorney for Whittaker, told the commission that the project would be "an appropriate front door" for the city and St. Charles County and would be unlike anything else in the county.
He and Tom Cunningham, an attorney for the city, asserted that it would produce significantly more tax revenue for schools and other local governments than "big-box" stores typically built in suburban areas — even during the period when much of it is diverted to the TIF.
"We want to do something that lasts," Goss said.
Cunningham said local governments would get $1.5 million annually in net extra tax revenue by the time the project is completed — in about five years.
An opponent, County Executive-elect Steve Ehlmann, contends that the school district and other governments could gain significant extra tax money as well from a less costly project that doesn't need tax increment financing. He didn't attend the hearing Wednesday.
Cunningham disputed that notion. He said the inaccessible streets, severe sloping on the site and the cost of removing asbestos from existing buildings make redevelopment unlikely without a major subsidy. He noted that no major development has occurred at the site for 25 years.
James Reid, a commercial property owner in the Main Street district, urged the commission to reduce the subsidy amount so that garages aren't covered. He said he didn't object to items that he said more clearly provide public benefit, such as streets.
City Councilman Joe Koester, 9th Ward, urged the commission "to come to some kind of compromise where we can have a win situation" for everyone.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/s ... +%22ark%22
- 8,905
digitalcaffeine wrote:
Brad Goss, an attorney for Whittaker, told the commission that the project would be "an appropriate front door" for the city and St. Charles County and would be unlike anything else in the county.
He and Tom Cunningham, an attorney for the city, asserted that it would produce significantly more tax revenue for schools and other local governments than "big-box" stores typically built in suburban areas — even during the period when much of it is diverted to the TIF.
"We want to do something that lasts," Goss said.
Could St. Chuck finally be realizing that current big box retailer designs SUCK?
- 1,610
I don't get the guy's dilemma. If there are two school board reps on the TIF commission, then one board appointee voting "yes" and the other "no" comes closest to the near 50/50 (though closer to 60/40), 4-3 vote the school board had.
- 1,054
TIF Commission meeting arguements
One elderly resident who has lived in the city for 69 years gave the comment that little has occured for 47 years with this prime location.
Cunningham was phenomenal! The man gave multiple scenarios for the financial situation that disproved the County Executive and school district arguements about money. The TIF goes to public infrastructure and not to subsidizing the actual development. However, the public infrastructure is needed to make the development work. Cunningham gave the alternative scenarios based on a perfect site, a flat graded site without the existing slopes or asbestos. At maximum buildout the site could be a bug box store grossing $800,000, but as Plaza at Noah's Ark it will gross at minimum $14 million. The taxes and revenue generated will be beyond all measure and all special districts benefit. The school district is lax in its duties and shooting itself in the foot by not approving the TIF since it will greatly benefit financially far greater than a big box store.
Cunningham talked a lot about the difference in sprawl like developments like a big box store that are not long lasting and exist in each city. This development would be businesses that would attract shoppers to non-typical stores and even provide 1,100 residential units to support the retail and businesses. You can't get better than that!
Cunningham also spoke about this development being a cataylst for future similar developments that will require less in TIFs and pay mopre out-of-pocket because of the profit return and demand. This project needs a TIF in order to get the ball rolling on new urbanist styled redevelopment.
It was an exciting meeting and is stiking up urban visions in St. Charles County in the County's central city, St. Charles. Will members of this forum give up their anti-St. Charles attitudes and urban elitism to welcome the growing urban lifestyle trend in cities where it is possible?
Imagine that central city St. Charles would redevelop at Clayton as new urban blending with its historic small town urban and establishing streetcars or trolleys to connect along Main Street, Fifth Street, Kingshighway, and First Capital. Will members of this forum continue to belittle the possibilities of redeveloping St. Charles as urbanist with walkable densities and attractive mass transit such to image the future more sustainable America?
Cunningham disputed that notion. He said the inaccessible streets, severe sloping on the site and the cost of removing asbestos from existing buildings make redevelopment unlikely without a major subsidy. He noted that no major development has occurred at the site for 25 years.
One elderly resident who has lived in the city for 69 years gave the comment that little has occured for 47 years with this prime location.
Cunningham was phenomenal! The man gave multiple scenarios for the financial situation that disproved the County Executive and school district arguements about money. The TIF goes to public infrastructure and not to subsidizing the actual development. However, the public infrastructure is needed to make the development work. Cunningham gave the alternative scenarios based on a perfect site, a flat graded site without the existing slopes or asbestos. At maximum buildout the site could be a bug box store grossing $800,000, but as Plaza at Noah's Ark it will gross at minimum $14 million. The taxes and revenue generated will be beyond all measure and all special districts benefit. The school district is lax in its duties and shooting itself in the foot by not approving the TIF since it will greatly benefit financially far greater than a big box store.
Cunningham talked a lot about the difference in sprawl like developments like a big box store that are not long lasting and exist in each city. This development would be businesses that would attract shoppers to non-typical stores and even provide 1,100 residential units to support the retail and businesses. You can't get better than that!
Cunningham also spoke about this development being a cataylst for future similar developments that will require less in TIFs and pay mopre out-of-pocket because of the profit return and demand. This project needs a TIF in order to get the ball rolling on new urbanist styled redevelopment.
It was an exciting meeting and is stiking up urban visions in St. Charles County in the County's central city, St. Charles. Will members of this forum give up their anti-St. Charles attitudes and urban elitism to welcome the growing urban lifestyle trend in cities where it is possible?
Imagine that central city St. Charles would redevelop at Clayton as new urban blending with its historic small town urban and establishing streetcars or trolleys to connect along Main Street, Fifth Street, Kingshighway, and First Capital. Will members of this forum continue to belittle the possibilities of redeveloping St. Charles as urbanist with walkable densities and attractive mass transit such to image the future more sustainable America?
SMSPlanstu wrote:TIF Commission meeting arguements
Cunningham disputed that notion. He said the inaccessible streets, severe sloping on the site and the cost of removing asbestos from existing buildings make redevelopment unlikely without a major subsidy. He noted that no major development has occurred at the site for 25 years.
One elderly resident who has lived in the city for 69 years gave the comment that little has occured for 47 years with this prime location.
Cunningham was phenomenal! The man gave multiple scenarios for the financial situation that disproved the County Executive and school district arguements about money. The TIF goes to public infrastructure and not to subsidizing the actual development. However, the public infrastructure is needed to make the development work. Cunningham gave the alternative scenarios based on a perfect site, a flat graded site without the existing slopes or asbestos. At maximum buildout the site could be a bug box store grossing $800,000, but as Plaza at Noah's Ark it will gross at minimum $14 million. The taxes and revenue generated will be beyond all measure and all special districts benefit. The school district is lax in its duties and shooting itself in the foot by not approving the TIF since it will greatly benefit financially far greater than a big box store.
Cunningham talked a lot about the difference in sprawl like developments like a big box store that are not long lasting and exist in each city. This development would be businesses that would attract shoppers to non-typical stores and even provide 1,100 residential units to support the retail and businesses. You can't get better than that!
Cunningham also spoke about this development being a cataylst for future similar developments that will require less in TIFs and pay mopre out-of-pocket because of the profit return and demand. This project needs a TIF in order to get the ball rolling on new urbanist styled redevelopment.
It was an exciting meeting and is stiking up urban visions in St. Charles County in the County's central city, St. Charles. Will members of this forum give up their anti-St. Charles attitudes and urban elitism to welcome the growing urban lifestyle trend in cities where it is possible?
Imagine that central city St. Charles would redevelop at Clayton as new urban blending with its historic small town urban and establishing streetcars or trolleys to connect along Main Street, Fifth Street, Kingshighway, and First Capital. Will members of this forum continue to belittle the possibilities of redeveloping St. Charles as urbanist with walkable densities and attractive mass transit such to image the future more sustainable America?
Nice post SMSPlanstu. I was at the meeting too. Were you sitting in the back row? I was the kid in the sweatshirt and jeans.
I also think it's wise to think of St. Charles city as an urban center of its own with O'Fallon and Wentzville being the "sprawl".
I was also encouraged by all the talk from Gross, representing Whittaker Homes, and Cunningham, representing the city, about how much better this project is than sprawl on just about every level. Times, they are a changin' in St. Chuck.
- 11K
Can we get some sweet urbanstl.com hats or somethin' so we can find one another at these things!?
SMSPlanstu wrote: Will members of this forum give up their anti-St. Charles attitudes and urban elitism to welcome the growing urban lifestyle trend in cities where it is possible?
People tend to forget that St. Charles was founded way back in 1769. It served as Missouri's first Capitol from 1821 to 1826. It was a thriving city in it's own right by the middle of the 19th Century.
I wonder how many people on this forum have actually bothered to walk around and explore South Main Street or Frenchtown?
Grover wrote:Can we get some sweet urbanstl.com hats or somethin' so we can find one another at these things!?
Wow, that's actually a really good idea! Has anyone on this board made up such a thing? If not, I think it's pretty easy to do via internetland.
- 52
tjacorn wrote:Grover wrote:Can we get some sweet urbanstl.com hats or somethin' so we can find one another at these things!?
Wow, that's actually a really good idea! Has anyone on this board made up such a thing? If not, I think it's pretty easy to do via internetland.
Somebody could take the logo (if granted permission, of course) and set it up on cafe press on hats and shirts.
- 52
From today's Post:
Isn't this what a TIF is supposed to be used for? Turning someplace that is derelict (for the last 20 years) and converting it to something useful that can be a starter for downtown St. Charles? As for the school districts, I can't imagine they are actually getting much of anything from the current property.
St. Charles panel turns down TIF for Noah's Ark site
A city advisory panel voted Wednesday against a $65 million tax subsidy for a massive commercial-residential development at the old Noah's Ark site.
The city's Tax Increment Financing Commission voted 7-4 to recommend against the subsidy for the $385 million project. The City Council has the final say.
Commission member John McGuire, president of St. Charles Community College, voted against the subsidy, questioning whether the city should subsidize upscale residences while there remains in St. Charles County a pressing need for low-income and "work force" housing.
Matt Brown, a county tax official who also voted to reject the proposal, said a TIF subsidy for the project would mean a tax burden on city taxpayers, many of whom are elderly, and on the public school system.
Commission Chairman David Arns, who voted in favor of the TIF recommendation, said the proposed subsidy was large but so would be the city's economic benefit. Arns, a Lindenwood University professor, called the Plaza at Noah's Ark an "anchor project" for the area.
Developer Greg Whittaker is proposing the commercial and residential complex to replace the vacant Noah's Ark restaurant and motel. A Whittaker representative said a tax increment financing subsidy of $65 million to build parking garages and other infrastructure is needed to develop 1,100 residential units and about 500,000 square feet of commercial space.
After defeating the proposal to recommend a $65 million TIF, commissioners discussed whether to tell the council that most members favor Whittaker's project but with a smaller public subsidy. Commissioners discussed the matter at length but adjourned without taking further action.
Under questioning by commissioners, Whittaker's representative, lawyer Brad Goss, said a TIF of $45 million could be acceptable.
Mayor Patti York and City Councilman John Gieseke both said Wednesday they favored the TIF requested by the Noah's Ark developer and hope that the council approves it. Former Mayor Grace Nichols, who is running against the two in the Feb. 6 mayoral primary, said she is undecided and will review the issue.
Under TIF financing, a portion of new local sales and property tax dollars generated by the project help pay for related improvements such as streets, sewers and garages.
Isn't this what a TIF is supposed to be used for? Turning someplace that is derelict (for the last 20 years) and converting it to something useful that can be a starter for downtown St. Charles? As for the school districts, I can't imagine they are actually getting much of anything from the current property.
^I agree. Though i don't think it has been vacant for 20 years, it is doing nothing to help St. Charles in its current state. Sometimes developers ask for too much TIF assistance, but I'm not sure that is happening in this case. Why give him $65MM if $45 will get it done? The argument that this would be a burden on tax payers doesn't make sense. Overall, I think this project will be a good addition to St. Charles' downtown area.
It's easy and popular for politicos to champion the public schools that get shafted by these TIFs. But that's only because there is little to no understanding from the general populace in regards to how a TIF works.
Every time I see somebody talking about how this project would take money away from the schools, I'm reminded of Reverend Lovejoy's wife on the Simpsons yelling, "Won't somebody think about the children!"
Every time I see somebody talking about how this project would take money away from the schools, I'm reminded of Reverend Lovejoy's wife on the Simpsons yelling, "Won't somebody think about the children!"
- 52
trent wrote:It's easy and popular for politicos to champion the public schools that get shafted by these TIFs. But that's only because there is little to no understanding from the general populace in regards to how a TIF works.
Is there a standard amount that a TIF sets aside or is every TIF different? I know one of the discussions was that the school district wasn't getting 100% of what they would get if there wasn't TIF. But they would be getting something that was more than they are getting now. And Whittaker also said he would put money in the hat for the school district as well.
The article from today's Post:
Council approves $55 million in aid for Noah's Ark site
By Mark Schlinkmann
01/24/2007
A $55 million tax increment financing subsidy for a commercial-residential development at the old Noah's Ark site won City Council approval on Tuesday night.
The council voted 6-3 for the plan, despite a negative recommendation this month from the city's Tax Increment Financing Commission. The original proposal, for $65 million in tax increment financing, was scaled back.
The developer, Greg Whittaker, hopes to begin clearing the 26.8-acre site this spring and start construction next year on the $385 million Plaza at Noah's Ark.
"We're going to have an entire community created where people can live and they can work — and where we're going to attract people in for shopping and things they can't get anywhere else," said a supporter, Councilman Rory Riddler, 1st Ward. "This is going to be a true destination."
The high-density complex is to include an 18-floor residential tower, several condo buildings with lower-floor shops and restaurants and offices, a 10-to-14-story hotel, a movie theater and an outdoor ice rink. The site is at the Interstate 70 interchange with South Fifth Street, just west of the Missouri River.
The tax increment financing subsidy assigns a portion of additional local sales and property tax dollars generated by a project for as long as 23 years to help pay for garages, streets, sidewalks, sewers, demolition and other items.
Supporters said the TIF — the largest ever awarded in St. Charles County — is needed to spur a project with the size and long-term economic benefit of the type Whittaker plans.
Opponents such as Councilman Michael Weller, 5th Ward, said the subsidy is too much and that public money shouldn't be used to build garages that will be used partly by residents of the complex.
Others contended that local governments would be shortchanged. "I know when someone's hand is in my back pocket," said Bruce Sowatsky, who heads a county children's services agency that gets sales tax revenue.
Supporters have said that even with some tax dollars diverted to the TIF, governments still will get more revenue from the site than they do now.
Joining Weller in voting against the bill were Council President Bob Kneemiller, 4th Ward, and Dottie Greer, 7th Ward.
The bill's sponsor, Mark Brown, 3rd Ward, was absent. Greer said Brown couldn't attend because of a problem at his business.
The council voted 8-1 to assign a $1.25 million payment from the TIF to the financially pressed St. Charles School District. The district board had voted to oppose the subsidy.
The complex also will include a pool and fitness center planned by a nonprofit organization promoting accessibility for the disabled. That group already owns part of the site.
The Noah's Ark motel shut down in late 2002, about two years after the closing of the ark-shaped restaurant that had been a local fixture since 1968.
The TIF bill also authorizes a community improvement district, which would allow a special property tax and sales tax at the site. That would raise an additional $10 million for the project.
Whittaker said some details still must be worked out, such as road access. Whittaker also will ask state officials to earmark $10 million in new state sales tax revenue from the project to related improvements.
- 623
I just heard on KMOX that the project will be called...
The Village at Noah's Ark?
Makes me want to sign up right now!
The Village at Noah's Ark?
Makes me want to sign up right now!