The State of Downtown

jsbru · PostDec 07, 2014#7762014-12-07T06:18+00:00

I live in the Wash. Ave. loft district. Just moved here this week and giving my initial impressions. Can't understand why there's not at least a Walgreens around here open late.

My loft building is nearly full with tenants, and it seems like there's dozens of other similar buildings like it. Where are all these people? Does everyone telecommute from home or something? Is it just the weather? Maybe the hundreds of SLU law students are all cooped up in the library studying for finals. But it doesn't seem like the residents are out walking to work in the morning or going out to dinner on the weeknight.

It might sound like I'm complaining too much, but I'm not. Overall, I like where I live so far. I'm just surprised that these streets are pretty much a ghost town even during the weekday rush. The only streets that are busy are Tucker and Market, and those are people in cars rushing to the highways to flee.

bigmclargehuge · PostDec 07, 2014#7772014-12-07T06:32+00:00

jsbru wrote:Where are all these people? Does everyone telecommute from home or something?

Haha many of us have asked that question many times. I know there are people living down here. Where the hell are they. The only thing i can come up with is most of them dont work downtown. So by the time they get home they either already ate close to work, got drinks close to work, picked up their groceries on the way home, etc. And no its not the weather, although it will pick up when there is a baseball game.

Its all a big mystery to me

jsbru · PostDec 07, 2014#7782014-12-07T06:39+00:00

Maybe it's just an illusion. There's residents along Wash Ave., and there's some residential towers along Broadway, but most other streets are parking lots, parking garages, sports arenas/parks, and office towers with parking garages attached. I thought I read somewhere that there's 90,000 or so jobs in the downtown area? And 13,000 residents? I pass maybe an average of 6 other pedestrians on my walk to work at 8:45 from Wash. Ave. to Spruce. Should be more people than that.

bigmclargehuge · PostDec 07, 2014#7792014-12-07T06:43+00:00

I think downtown has closer to 9000 residents and well as for the jobs...No one has the number but there is no way there are 90000. I think someone had estimates around 70 or so.(Roger or someone please correct me if im wrong) But those are just estimates. Its clear downtown has taken a huge hit to daytime population over the last 10 years. I think the city is scared to actaully tell the real number of workers.

But actually downtown is more livable than it was 10 years. And hopefully if we can get three or four projects going it will start to pick back up.

TheNewSaintLouis · PostDec 07, 2014#7802014-12-07T22:08+00:00

I would think there probably close to 80000 jobs downtown. Theres no doubt that Clayton and the burbs have taken a big bite out of the downtown work force. Hopefully with all the ongoings of all the negative that have evolve here maybe we're hitting an all new low and possibly just possibly theres a light at the end of the tunnel where we can regain some forward progress. I would run across nude downtown if we actually land a company that brings more than 5,000 jobs within the next year .

roger wyoming II · PostDec 08, 2014#7812014-12-08T01:11+00:00

jsbru wrote: I thought I read somewhere that there's 90,000 or so jobs in the downtown area? And 13,000 residents? I pass maybe an average of 6 other pedestrians on my walk to work at 8:45 from Wash. Ave. to Spruce. Should be more people than that.

Welcome to the STL! bigmcgif is pretty much on target in his response ^^.

The last time the downtown org did a jobs count was around 2007 I believe and came up with a number of 85,000 iirc.... but this included large employers on the perimeter of downtown like Purina & Ameren and, in the case of Wells-Fargo, even technically in Midtown. So in the CBD I'd wager the number even back then was closer to 70-75,000. I believe dblsouthcity posted figures from a recent presentation downtown citing 65,000 or so workers (could be wrong on the precise figure) using some ESRI data but I can't recall if this was for just the CBD or also included expanded downtown boundaries.

On residential, the downtown org also was inflating the numbers you mentioned as it included the adjacent Carr Square and Columbus Square neighborhoods; as the gifmeister mentioned the actual number is closer to 9,000 for the Downtown and Downtown West neighborhoods. So instead of adding about 500 people per year in recent years and having a population of 13,500, in reality in recent years we really only have been adding about 350 people per year and have a total of about 8,500-9,000 total.

The good news though is that the new head of what is now called Downtown STL, Inc. is distinguishing between "Downtown Core" and "Greater Downtown" and coming up with numbers for each and I believe is planning on conducting a much needed jobs census update; they have hired this guy who should be a big help:

Mobin Khan
Director, Economic Development & Research
mkhan@downtownstl.org

Here is the website for Downtown STL, btw: http://www.downtownstl.org/

I'll post later on why I am cautiously optimistic for the future.

bigmclargehuge · PostDec 08, 2014#7822014-12-08T01:34+00:00

^KHAAAN

Presbyterian · PostDec 08, 2014#7832014-12-08T01:57+00:00

Here's a visual.

Red dot = 10 jobs
Blue dot = 10 residents

Notice the dead zone between 6th and 7th streets in the CBD.

jcity · PostDec 08, 2014#7842014-12-08T05:37+00:00

There should be a block by block redevelopment program for downtown done by the planning department. In particular, the focus should be on surface lots and buildings that haven't been redeveloped. Does any such program exist? I'd really like to see the vacant areas between soulard and downtown and areas north and west of downtown addressed in particular. Also, London style cameras all over the CBD. I heard Railway will soon be redeveloped, but I'm not sure the exact timeline.

roger wyoming II · PostDec 08, 2014#7852014-12-08T20:47+00:00

^ I hadn't heard anything about the Railway Exchange other than WUSTLers submitting some design ideas.... I usually take that sort of project as meaning actual development is a long way away, but hopefully something is moving along quietly.

Also, I just saw this from the Collective owner....

"The past three months have been rough," explains store owner Nicole Benoist. "Sales just plummeted—we didn't have the traffic coming downtown that we'd hoped for. It's really no comparison to the same time last year."

Benoist also cited several recent security issues. "Downtown has been struggling. With that struggle, if you put something else in the mix that's negative, it causes us to lose even more traffic."

http://www.stlmag.com/style/collective- ... is-closes/

ouch!

rbb · PostDec 08, 2014#7862014-12-08T21:47+00:00

roger wyoming II wrote:^ I hadn't heard anything about the Railway Exchange other than WUSTLers submitting some design ideas.... I usually take that sort of project as meaning actual development is a long way away, but hopefully something is moving along quietly.

Also, I just saw this from the Collective owner....

"The past three months have been rough," explains store owner Nicole Benoist. "Sales just plummeted—we didn't have the traffic coming downtown that we'd hoped for. It's really no comparison to the same time last year."

Benoist also cited several recent security issues. "Downtown has been struggling. With that struggle, if you put something else in the mix that's negative, it causes us to lose even more traffic."

http://www.stlmag.com/style/collective- ... is-closes/

ouch!

^ There's no reason to doubt this, but I can't help but think that this:

The Collective also had a short-lived location at Taubman Prestige Outlets, opening with the outlet mall in August 2013 and closing just four months later.

Had an impact on their numbers too. I wonder if they could have buckled down and ridden out the downturn a little longer had they not tried to expand out in Gumbo...

-RBB

TheNewSaintLouis · PostDec 08, 2014#7872014-12-08T21:51+00:00

Just this weekend 3 teens were shot at downtown one was hit in the foot. The parents were charged with not knowing where their kids were located which the city needs to start doing . Do you all feel like the whole Ferguson events and the recent surge in crime within the city itself has hurt downtown a lot?

robertn42 · PostDec 08, 2014#7882014-12-08T22:31+00:00

^No Question, but I hope and believe it will be short-lived. The Arcade, Union Station, and a residential component to BPV will push DT forward. Other projects will follow.

The criminal element we keep battle is more complex and disturbing. I have no answers for the gun violence and cannot even try to tackle it. Although I agree with you, making parents accountable for their kids is a big step.

MatthewHall · PostDec 09, 2014#7892014-12-09T00:26+00:00

TheNewSaintLouis wrote:Just this weekend 3 teens were shot at downtown one was hit in the foot. The parents were charged with not knowing where their kids were located which the city needs to start doing . Do you all feel like the whole Ferguson events and the recent surge in crime within the city itself has hurt downtown a lot?

Ferguson hurt Ferguson a thousand times more.

gary kreie · PostDec 12, 2014#7902014-12-12T22:43+00:00

Downtown at night yesterday, it was good to see all the upper floor lights on in the Philip Johnson building (Old General American) now being converted for use by Laclede. Also, all the lights were on in the Arcade building upper floors for construction.

roger wyoming II · PostDec 14, 2014#7912014-12-14T19:20+00:00

^ Can't wait for both of those to open.... by this time next year we should have several key buildings giving life to various parts of the CBD. While we need more activity in all parts of the CBD, it seems like the only one that is really moribund is the Mercantile/Railway Exchange area... it probably will be some time before a new plan for the Railway Exchange can get off the ground, but I'd like to think the more modest LaSalle Building and Mercantile Library are attractive candidates for moving forward soon.

PostDec 15, 2014#7922014-12-15T20:27+00:00

An interesting story out of Cincy in how that city's government is handling incentives on a mixed-use tower:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/n ... sized.html

The original plan was for a 30 story residential tower with 300 units on top of a 15,000 sq. ft. grocery store and parking for 950 cars. The city would have given a $12 million forgivable loan and tax abatement.

However, the new mayor balked at that and now a down-sized project seems to be moving forward.
The new agreement is for 8 floors of residential with 208 units on top of 25,000 sq. ft. of retail/commercial and 925 parking spots. The city will now give an outright $5.5 million grant and a $4 million loan for the garage that would be paid back to the city. (With the new mayor saying this saves the city $6.5 million.)

And on the tax abatement front, a new change in effect in the new year on downtown projects will reduce the abatement percentage a few percentage points and direct those funds to the operation of the new streetcar.

I can see pros and cons of such direct subsidies for downtown, but I can see them being a good thing in certain instances. And I really like the streetcar funding mechanism. Thoughts?

TheNewSaintLouis · PostDec 15, 2014#7932014-12-15T22:39+00:00

I think the street car alone is a attractive investment that our city should look further incorporating into our tourism industry. We'll soon learn how successful both the KC and Cincy street cars will be. Its ashamed that the new mayor there balked on that 30 story tower cause i believe Cincy has such a very underrated beautiful skyline. I don't really see our mayor doing what Cincy mayor is going in financing a new residential or mix use office building although i could be wrong mayor Slay just seems to be more focused on rehabbing older buildings. I agree the Arcade will breathe new life into the CBD but i do know that the loss of Macy's has hurt downtown in many ways. I was curious on how come theres no Aloft Hotel or Conrad hotel here in St.Louis and if we were to get either where do you think one would go?
Also do you think they should move the Hard Rock Cafe onto Wash Ave? maybe build a Hard Rock hotel ?

Theres many things i would love for our city to do for downtown

downtown2007 · PostDec 15, 2014#7942014-12-15T23:22+00:00

I would love to see Aloft build a hotel on the lot across the street from Rooster or the lot on the Northwest corner of Washington and 11th.

roger wyoming II · PostDec 15, 2014#7952014-12-15T23:55+00:00

^ Aloft would be great and they have opened in peer Midwest cities recently.... they went into a new construction mixed-use tower on the downtown Cleveland lakefront and are just now opening in downtown Detroit in a historic tower as part of a mixed-use rehab.

shadrach · PostDec 16, 2014#7962014-12-16T00:43+00:00

if we get an Aloft hotel, which I hope we do, I think it'll be in Cortex.

roger wyoming II · PostDec 16, 2014#7972014-12-16T01:15+00:00

^ I could see that working in the Cortex area.... it would be a nice fit. So it is settled then that we'll put an Aloft in Cortex and a Kimpton downtown?

jsbru · PostDec 16, 2014#7982014-12-16T01:24+00:00

roger wyoming II wrote: it seems like the only one that is really moribund is the Mercantile/Railway Exchange area... it probably will be some time before a new plan for the Railway Exchange can get off the ground, but I'd like to think the more modest LaSalle Building and Mercantile Library are attractive candidates for moving forward soon.

The stretch of Locust between 9th and Tucker is pretty bad, too. The Alverne rehab should help, but there's those three buildings between 9th and 10th (the ones they were going to tear down and rehab one into a boutique hotel), then there's two under-used taller ones between 10th and 11th, and then between 11th and Tucker there's a ton of surface parking and some more under-used, vacant buildings. And then there's the Jefferson Arms. Would be nice to see some new construction over one of those surface lots on 11th. You would think that the addition of SLU law would create more housing demand, but it doesn't seem like there's been any response from developers.

roger wyoming II · PostDec 16, 2014#7992014-12-16T02:26+00:00

^ 1115 Pine by SLU Law will be undergoing a renovation.... a smallish building but it will be nice to see it back in action. The area between 10th & Tucker is kind of sleepy but I didn't include it as completely moribund like RRX & Mercantile super-blocks as there are a smattering of projects in various stages -- as you say the Alverne (which looks like a 2016 project), the old Bussone's on Olive which is targeted for the next Bailey's project, 1115 Pine, etc.

dbInSouthCity · PostDec 16, 2014#8002014-12-16T13:25+00:00

Speaking on SLU Law- seems like every time i go by it there is a new neon sign....i think there is at least 4 on the building now.

1- entrance- names of the couple that donated the building
2- main sign on top of the building
3- the docket sign on the side
4- above the docket sign about half way up the building there is a sign for a guy that the law library is named after...odd to have a huge sign on the building for that.

The State of Downtown

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