urbanSTL

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Sep 15, 2024

Probably values in the City reached its highest total ever last year.  


Downtown related:  HOK has a letter of intent for its new long term Downtown office space.

It would be interesting to see historical property assessment data. But almost every downtown office building's assessment is well below peak numbers, even without adjusting for inflation. Other commercial and residential also is weak.

From a Clevelander. He did compliment some of our other neighborhoods

My daily reminder to the STL metro that downtown’s biggest issue is the people, or lack thereof. If we made a concerted effort as a people to spend our time in the civic spaces which are pretty great and money at the existing businesses, activity will spur.

It should not be this empty in a nice Sept Saturday

Cleveland is getting a new corporate skyscraper in their downtown for 1,000 employees. Even with tax breaks on their earnings tax, they are still paying a higher rate than our 1%. Cleveland has all of the same systemic problems that STL has, high crime, segregation, white flight, earnings tax 2.5x higher than ours.... The only major difference? We are our own county while Cleveland has the support and cooperation of their county.

His entire thread is a more nuanced than that but what he says isn’t new nor is it exactly accurate.  We know it’s not empty by all kinds of real life visitors and spending data.  I know to from talking to restaurants and hotel owners.   There is more things to do, see and eat in downtown any anywhere else and it has 5,500 residents per sq mile.

The problem has always been the same - lack of
cohesive plan for downtown and I think a lot of people have realized that and tremendous progress has happened this year on that front.   BPV gets 6-7m visitors a year but unless you’re there you wouldn’t know it. Union Station is pushing 3m, city museum 1m.   But it’s all on islands and part of it is that downtown was build for a different type of city. Best example of that is Tucker. Luckily this fall project should be award to make it smaller and better.  7th street connecting BPV and Wash Ave kicks  off and Broadway and 4th should be in the next 18 or so months.  GSLs real estate fund is spending like crazy to fill the gap and get the last few of these remaining vacant buildings going, the most important being railway because when that’s active that completely changes the feel on street level in that entire central part that disconnects downtown in all directions.

There are still other things that need to happen, the biz community needs to take pride in the regions one and only downtown and bring jobs back and the City has to allocate $100,000,000 from rams settlement for infrastructure to keep working on connecting all these islands. A lot of progress on that front behind the scenes

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Sep 22, 2024

His entire thread is a more nuanced than that but what he says isn’t new nor is it exactly accurate.  We know it’s not empty by all kinds of real life visitors and spending data.  I know to from talking to restaurants and hotel owners.   There is more things to do, see and eat in downtown any anywhere else and it has 5,500 residents per sq mile.

The problem has always been the same - lack of
cohesive plan for downtown and I think a lot of people have realized that and tremendous progress has happened this year on that front.   BPV gets 6-7m visitors a year but unless you’re there you wouldn’t know it. Union Station is pushing 3m, city museum 1m.   But it’s all on islands and part of it is that downtown was build for a different type of city. Best example of that is Tucker. Luckily this fall project should be award to make it smaller and better.  7th street connecting BPV and Wash Ave kicks  off and Broadway and 4th should be in the next 18 or so months.  GSLs real estate fund is spending like crazy to fill the gap and get the last few of these remaining vacant buildings going, the most important being railway because when that’s active that completely changes the feel on street level in that entire central part that disconnects downtown in all directions.

There are still other things that need to happen, the biz community needs to take pride in the regions one and only downtown and bring jobs back and the City has to allocate $100,000,000 from rams settlement for infrastructure to keep working on connecting all these islands.  A lot of progress on that front behind the scenes

Any progress being made with the Chemical Building?

If Millennium site is re-branded Gateway Yards, and 4 blue-glass skyscrapers are built housing Enterprise Mobility HQ in one, Edward Jones HQ in another, JW Marriott in another, and mixed-use in the final…boom, our downtown, with Gateway Yards adjacent to Chouteau Landing development, is immediately a top-10 downtown in the country.

Pipe dream, of course. But not that far-fetched seeing what other Rust Belt cities are doing getting their HQ’s downtown.

But it’s there for the taking.

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Sep 22, 2024

His entire thread is a more nuanced than that but what he says isn’t new nor is it exactly accurate.  We know it’s not empty by all kinds of real life visitors and spending data.  I know to from talking to restaurants and hotel owners.   There is more things to do, see and eat in downtown any anywhere else and it has 5,500 residents per sq mile.

The problem has always been the same - lack of
cohesive plan for downtown and I think a lot of people have realized that and tremendous progress has happened this year on that front.   BPV gets 6-7m visitors a year but unless you’re there you wouldn’t know it. Union Station is pushing 3m, city museum 1m.   But it’s all on islands and part of it is that downtown was build for a different type of city. Best example of that is Tucker. Luckily this fall project should be award to make it smaller and better.  7th street connecting BPV and Wash Ave kicks  off and Broadway and 4th should be in the next 18 or so months.  GSLs real estate fund is spending like crazy to fill the gap and get the last few of these remaining vacant buildings going, the most important being railway because when that’s active that completely changes the feel on street level in that entire central part that disconnects downtown in all directions.

There are still other things that need to happen, the biz community needs to take pride in the regions one and only downtown and bring jobs back and the City has to allocate $100,000,000 from rams settlement for infrastructure to keep working on connecting all these islands.  A lot of progress on that front behind the scenes

can GSL entice any corporate client to open its HQ in downtown?

stlurbanist wrote: ↑

Sep 22, 2024

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Sep 22, 2024

His entire thread is a more nuanced than that but what he says isn’t new nor is it exactly accurate.  We know it’s not empty by all kinds of real life visitors and spending data.  I know to from talking to restaurants and hotel owners.   There is more things to do, see and eat in downtown any anywhere else and it has 5,500 residents per sq mile.

The problem has always been the same - lack of
cohesive plan for downtown and I think a lot of people have realized that and tremendous progress has happened this year on that front.   BPV gets 6-7m visitors a year but unless you’re there you wouldn’t know it. Union Station is pushing 3m, city museum 1m.   But it’s all on islands and part of it is that downtown was build for a different type of city. Best example of that is Tucker. Luckily this fall project should be award to make it smaller and better.  7th street connecting BPV and Wash Ave kicks  off and Broadway and 4th should be in the next 18 or so months.  GSLs real estate fund is spending like crazy to fill the gap and get the last few of these remaining vacant buildings going, the most important being railway because when that’s active that completely changes the feel on street level in that entire central part that disconnects downtown in all directions.

There are still other things that need to happen, the biz community needs to take pride in the regions one and only downtown and bring jobs back and the City has to allocate $100,000,000 from rams settlement for infrastructure to keep working on connecting all these islands.  A lot of progress on that front behind the scenes

can GSL entice any corporate client to open its HQ in downtown?

They’ve spent the last few years playing defense and getting some major tenants to stay and I think things have now stabilized on that front. Now it’s time to move on to offense.

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Sep 22, 2024

His entire thread is a more nuanced than that but what he says isn’t new nor is it exactly accurate.  We know it’s not empty by all kinds of real life visitors and spending data.  I know to from talking to restaurants and hotel owners.   There is more things to do, see and eat in downtown any anywhere else and it has 5,500 residents per sq mile.

The problem has always been the same - lack of
cohesive plan for downtown and I think a lot of people have realized that and tremendous progress has happened this year on that front.   BPV gets 6-7m visitors a year but unless you’re there you wouldn’t know it. Union Station is pushing 3m, city museum 1m.   But it’s all on islands and part of it is that downtown was build for a different type of city. Best example of that is Tucker. Luckily this fall project should be award to make it smaller and better.  7th street connecting BPV and Wash Ave kicks  off and Broadway and 4th should be in the next 18 or so months.  GSLs real estate fund is spending like crazy to fill the gap and get the last few of these remaining vacant buildings going, the most important being railway because when that’s active that completely changes the feel on street level in that entire central part that disconnects downtown in all directions.

There are still other things that need to happen, the biz community needs to take pride in the regions one and only downtown and bring jobs back and the City has to allocate $100,000,000 from rams settlement for infrastructure to keep working on connecting all these islands. A lot of progress on that front behind the scenes

Agreed. Downtown is so close to being one of the best in the country. The projects for 7th, Tucker, 4th/Broadway will all help connectivity. Downtown has islands and itself is a peninsula at best with the only seamless connection to the rest of the city being to its west. Getting development on its north side and connecting to Soulard will also be necessary for more normal everyday activity.

Not many downtowns can boast the attractions that StL can - Busch, Enterprise, CityPark, Union Station, Arch, Citygarden, Keiner, City Museum. It’s really only about getting more people walking around downtown streets to fill in the gaps as you point out. Wash Ave and Olive can be amazing main commercial corridors once again. Every street downtown has something that can be built upon. They just need more foot traffic. Residential has momentum, and we need the business community to come to the table as they have done in many other cities.

It’s already worth going downtown so it’s frustrating I feel like I’m pulling teeth for others to go with me.

Downtown streets will be more people oriented in a couple years, so hopefully the people come with that. I think they will if we get these redevelopment sites going that have been sitting on plan after plan for 10 years.

some things cannot be disputed. 

Went to the downtown movie theatre for the first time tonight after work. $5 movies on Wednesdays. Three screens. Interesting little amenity for downtown living. 

^Yeah, I like it. I go there every now and then for the $5 Wednesday movie. It's always been pretty quiet when I was there. Hope you enjoyed your time.

I love to hear about the future projects, momentum and behind the scenes planning. That being said, Downtown has a huge perception problem right now. When I mention Downtown to people who are not there much, they speak as if it is a war zone. We all know that is not true. Has Downtown taken it's lumps, for sure, but every incident is amplified in the media. There have been some high-profile crimes, no doubt. The City and the various organizations have to put MAJOR focus on changing this perception. I know this is nothing new, but I get so frustrated when people say things like " I'm not getting shot down there" I'm not getting my car broken into going to a Cards/Blues game" etc. etc. I would guess this is at the top of the list for many of the organizations trying to bring back Downtown, as it should be. The narrative & the negativity has to be reversed. We St. Lousians are sometimes our own worst enemies. We love our City, but many trash it any time they get the opportunity. The way to change the narrative is to make Downtown as safe as can be and sustain that safety for the long haul. The rest will come. There is too much unrealized potential. We all know more people visiting and living there will equate to a safer feel. Of course, police presence is an important part of that, 7 days a week, 24-7, not just for events. 

^am sure even though Armory and midtown is not part of downtown, it will get the bad rapport. of course, downtown does take credit for other projects in midtown.

If you havent been over to the landing much, you should. It is starting to really come together. Another rehab ongoing at a new building. The beautification has been well done with the exception of the entrance into the landing and the connection to the riverfront trail/Leonard Sullivan.

There’s a great market/deli called The Cobblestone. I purchased various local food items and beer there today. Brew Tulum also is inside which is good coffee if you have not tried. Beautiful spaces. They both seem to be slow so give them a visit.

It’s quiet down there but in a serene way. With some more visitors to supplement the residential community there, I think some retail could fill in and it could become a little European-type haven of mixed uses and patio alleys.

Brew Tulum should be starting soon with its restaurant build out. Got a little off track because of some kitchen hood issues

I noticed UB Greensfelder has new building signage. Instead of the squate with a green corner it says "UBGreensfelder" and it's a lot brighter than the old sign, bolder text too.

Similar density to downtown and downtown west StL I believe. A lot more counted residents which I assume is due to the boundaries Indy draws for downtown. Probably matches the proportions of their insanely large city limits (an aside that annoys me greatly when people tell me Indy and Louisville are larger cities than St. Louis). Begs the question - obviously there’d be better draw for investment if our city could actually annex dense munis (Maplewood, U City would actually INCREASE stl city density) if there were ever a merger. Should we also combine redraw “downtown” to give a refreshed bumped up representation of the residential and investment opportunity to companies? Companies are a lot dumber than we think and are influenced by boundaries too like the layperson.

Has anybody done a good comparison of our downtown population to these peers? I’d like to see a breakdown - Indy, Cincy, KC, Columbus, Cleveland, Milwaukee.

One benefit those cities have is that downtown is still somewhat centered in their population. We probably need to pace ahead of those type cities due to our population center being so far west of downtown.

Also notes - the positive press of the headline which we could use more of from local media. All three of those things would also be true of downtown StL.

It’s about 5 sq miles, so over twice as big as “downtown” STL. If you overlay that here and take it south to Lafayette and to midtown, it’s probably the same population.  Whatever the tweet above used for boundary seems a little bigger than official,  official downtown Indy had 22,000 people in 2020, I highly doubt it’s added 7,500 in 3 + years


We are a rare place that has an actual neighborhood called downtown and downtown west. Most cities it’s a collection of other neighborhoods, like KC which is like 6-7 sq miles of neighborhoods

Ironically I’ve never seen as many people as I did today around 11;45am in downtown.

I don't want to rub salt into the wound but the stretch of area on 7th street between Washington Ave and Chestnut looks like ghost town. It didn't sink in until now.

stlurbanist wrote: ↑

Oct 03, 2024

I don't want to rub salt into the wound but the stretch of area on 7th street between Washington Ave and Chestnut looks like ghost town. It didn't sink in until now.

You’re in luck, it’s about to be full of people all
day for a year. The 7th street project just started today