The State of Downtown

wabash · PostOct 01, 2014#4262014-10-01T20:20+00:00

roger wyoming II wrote: so where previously it was saying that downtown was adding around 500 people annually in recent years and had a population of over 13,000, now we see that we're really adding only around 350 and have a population of around 8,000.

There's something weird going on with their stats. I like that they've moved from their rather generous definition of "Greater Downtown St. Louis" to focusing more closely on the "Downtown Core" (a.k.a. the Downtown & Downtown West neighborhoods). But there numbers still don't entirely make sense.

The 2010 Census has the Downtown Core population as 7,641 (Downtown=3,701 & Downtown West=3,940). And the Downtown Partnership has a 2014 Downtown Core estimate of 7,967. Granted there was a recession and all, but it seems unlikely that the Downtown Core grew by only 326 residents between 2010 and early 2014, especially considering the Park Pacific (230 units) and Laurel Apartments (205 units) have opened in that time among others. Also, I'm not sure where they're getting their 350 per year statistic if the increase has been only 326 in the last 3-4 years.

roger wyoming II · PostOct 01, 2014#4272014-10-01T21:18+00:00

^ yeah. it is odd. Are there any complexes that maybe shed people since 2010? I can't recall the history of all the Plaza Square towers. Maybe a subsidized complex or two elsewhere. I'll try to enquire about their numbers.

PostOct 02, 2014#4282014-10-02T17:16+00:00

moorlander wrote:Can you image our downtown if even half of the following chose downtown instead of expanding in the county?
Scottrade, Edward Jones, Centene, Express Scripts, WWT and RGA?

Exactly.... the small but steady annual increase in residents adds diversity and expands hours of activity to downtown, but it is not growing enough to overcome jobs loss and allow downtown to reach a consistent level of activity and fill up storefronts. But if our corporate community committed to downtown thousands of jobs easily could be added and we'd actually have an undisputed thriving downtown.

gary kreie · PostOct 02, 2014#4292014-10-02T17:37+00:00

Cover the left end of this photo (by Bob Sandor) with your hand and show it to a St. Louisan and say, "Isn't Seattle a beautiful city?" Then move your hand.

_T8A0187 by Bob Sandor 2014, on Flickr

bigmclargehuge · PostOct 02, 2014#4302014-10-02T17:55+00:00

Photoshop is a glorious tool. Can make anything look good. Including most people on tinder

terence d · PostOct 02, 2014#4312014-10-02T17:57+00:00

^^Yep, undeniable.

^Whats photoshopped?

roger wyoming II · PostOct 02, 2014#4322014-10-02T18:06+00:00

here is a view of Seattle w/o the Space Needle:

and another:

Much denser and many more taller buildings. I am not sure if we'll have to fill up key acreage like Bottle District, BPV & LL with 30+ story towers to get the density we need for downtown to really thrive, but we definitely will need at least a fair number of midrises.

bigmclargehuge · PostOct 02, 2014#4332014-10-02T18:25+00:00

Downtown STL is like being at a bar at 3am. In a certain light at the certain angle it looks greats. But turn on the lights and you see how dated, run down, and passed over it looks. LOTS of Other cities looks great no matter the time of day. I accnowledge downtown STL has seen better days and it will be great when all the offices are filled and lit up and more modern touches are added into the mix and skyline. Im not saying ours is the worst but it needs alot of work.

downtown2007 · PostOct 02, 2014#4342014-10-02T18:32+00:00

bigmclargehuge wrote:Downtown STL is like being at a bar at 3am. In a certain light at the certain angle it looks greats. But turn on the lights and you see how dated, run down, and passed over it looks. LOTS of Other cities looks great no matter the time of day. I accnowledge downtown STL has seen better days and it will be great when all the offices are filled and lit up and more modern touches are added into the mix and skyline. Im not saying ours is the worst but it needs alot of work.

The old post office district and Washington Ave have seen streetscape improvements over the last 10 years. The MX district has had a massive rehab and city garden was built. 12 years ago downtown looked like Beirut.

Could it use more work? Of course. How ever it has come along way and is quite aesthetically appeasing.

gary kreie · PostOct 02, 2014#4352014-10-02T18:37+00:00

bigmclargehuge wrote:Downtown STL is like being at a bar at 3am. In a certain light at the certain angle it looks greats. But turn on the lights and you see how dated, run down, and passed over it looks. LOTS of Other cities looks great no matter the time of day. I accnowledge downtown STL has seen better days and it will be great when all the offices are filled and lit up and more modern touches are added into the mix and skyline. Im not saying ours is the worst but it needs alot of work.

And here is Seattle as it looks most of the time -- gloomy. They don't make the post card from this photo.

The point is, the general public think nearly all skylines look alike without something identifiably iconic in it.

bigmclargehuge · PostOct 02, 2014#4362014-10-02T18:40+00:00

^Thats great then dont move to Seattle then since you dont like it so much. And Downtown 2007 yes there have been great improvements but alot have been offset by additional closings etc. Washington is ok. but Steches of Pine, Locust and Olive are very rundown with alot of empty storefronts. Sometime it feels like we just shifted things around and there has been only minimal improvement. At least lately it feels like that

roger wyoming II · PostOct 02, 2014#4372014-10-02T18:57+00:00

gary kreie wrote: And here is Seattle as it looks most of the time -- gloomy. They don't make the post card from this photo.

The point is, the general public think nearly all skylines look alike without something identifiably iconic in it.

I'd give up the Arch for that kind of density of tall buildings any day (as long as their not Potemkin).

bigmclargehuge · PostOct 02, 2014#4382014-10-02T19:01+00:00

^yes

dbInSouthCity · PostOct 02, 2014#4392014-10-02T19:17+00:00

roger wyoming II wrote:
gary kreie wrote:
I'd give up the Arch for that kind of density of tall buildings any day (as long as their not Potemkin).

I'd give up the Arch and Ozzie Smith to have that kind of port in north city

olvidarte · PostOct 02, 2014#4402014-10-02T19:25+00:00

The conversation on this forum is becoming hilarious and just sad. Now you're talking about trading the Arch, a marvel of modern sculpture, for greater density and a more beautiful downtown.

I get where the thought and desire comes from, but sheesh....looks like the old defeatist and negative STL attitude has started to settle in here. We're just not cool enough

I think it's time to unbookmark this forum.

<Insert stupid gif here>

moorlander · PostOct 02, 2014#4412014-10-02T19:27+00:00

Imagine a central corridor with this density

If only.....

dbInSouthCity · PostOct 02, 2014#4422014-10-02T19:32+00:00

olvidarte wrote:The conversation on this forum is becoming hilarious and just sad. Now you're talking about trading the Arch, a marvel of modern sculpture, for greater density and a more beautiful downtown.

I get where the thought and desire comes from, but sheesh....looks like the old defeatist and negative STL attitude has started to settle in here. We're just not cool enough

I think it's time to unbookmark this forum.

<Insert stupid gif here>

roger wyoming II · PostOct 02, 2014#4432014-10-02T20:03+00:00

olvidarte wrote:The conversation on this forum is becoming hilarious and just sad. Now you're talking about trading the Arch, a marvel of modern sculpture, for greater density and a more beautiful downtown.

I get where the thought and desire comes from, but sheesh....looks like the old defeatist and negative STL attitude has started to settle in here. We're just not cool enough

I think it's time to unbookmark this forum.

<Insert stupid gif here>

I'm far from a defeatist but I'm also a realist. If we want a truly thriving downtown that is teeming with people and have a couple drug stores and clothing stores and this and that that we all want we will have to bring a lot more people downtown. Of course the whole concept of a trade of an iconic landmark for more people is silly, but to me what holds more promise and hope for our city and region is a thriving, denser downtown as opposed to a stunning, iconic landmark.

bigmclargehuge · PostOct 02, 2014#4442014-10-02T20:26+00:00

^Yes this. And for me ive both lived and worked down here for 10ish years. Im considering a job move next summer. Realizing most of my options are 170 and beyond is so frustrating. I dont want to spend time in a car. And living downtown my options are becoming less and less. So dont mistake our frustration for negativity. Im glad your happy with Downtowns current state. I am not. We want Downtown STL to thrive and become a modern BUSTLING city.

dbInSouthCity · PostOct 02, 2014#4452014-10-02T20:28+00:00

bigmclargehuge wrote:^Yes this. And for me ive both lived and worked down here for 10ish years. Im considering a job move next summer. Realizing most of my options are 170 and beyond is so frustrating. I dont want to spend time in a car. And living downtown my options are becoming less and less. So dont mistake our frustration for negativity. We want Downtown STL to thrive and become a modern BUSTLING city

I live in South Hampton and work in deep west county....22 min each way. as long as i make it to hampton and 64 before 7am and leave work around 3:45

roger wyoming II · PostOct 02, 2014#4462014-10-02T20:51+00:00

moorlander wrote:Imagine a central corridor with this density If only.....

It would be interesting to know how many more residents and employment we'd have if we utilized more of what we already have... if say we got up to a much healthier 90% office occupancy and activated key buildings like RRX. Jefferson Arms and Butler Bros. Those three alone total about 2 million square feet of space. Without constructing anything new we could still be in a much better position, but how much? (Of course, all that momentum would lead to more demand for new construction as well.)

Edit....

Here are some possible residential numbers based off prior proposals
Chemical - 120 units + retail
Jefferson Arms - 450-500 units + office
Butler Bros. - 342 luxury units + retail

So that's 900+ residential units that at one point or another have been proposed for some of the remaining larger ghost buildings. The monster Railway Exchange could easily add 300+ more units as part of a mixed-use project and I suspect converting the Lasalle and Mercantile Buildings would bring several hundred more between them. Perhaps a couple hundred more in the old Stouffer Hotel complex. With other smaller buildings like the Intrada Lofts & 1800 Pine proposals, I suppose we could get another 2,500+ residential units out of existing buildings in the downtown core.

I think with typical household size for downtown units, that would be about 3,500 or so more people. That would be a huge boost but it seems like to make it up to 20,000+ population we're going to need some substantial infill.

TheNewSaintLouis · PostOct 02, 2014#4472014-10-02T21:11+00:00

I really enjoyed everyone's reply thank you much for responding as far as me not liking St.Louis ??? I'm almost in love with St.Louis.
The reasoning i asked everyone's honest opinion cause i was reading someone's post in the KCRag forum & i wanted to know every persons opinion on the St.Louis in this forum.
I honestly think we are 5 or so years away from something extraordinary or maybe I'm overly optimistic ..

Yes Ferguson is a big learning lesson for all of us & St.Louis really needs to consolidate all forms of its Government & municipalities..

Presbyterian · PostOct 03, 2014#4482014-10-03T15:42+00:00

moorlander wrote:Imagine a central corridor with this density If only.....

Best photo ever.

roger wyoming II · PostOct 03, 2014#4492014-10-03T15:56+00:00

^ we could use some supertalls on the E. Riverfront to take advantage!

JNOnSTL · PostOct 03, 2014#4502014-10-03T16:58+00:00

^^Where is this?

The State of Downtown

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