Are you arguing that downtown hasn't lost significant number of jobs and still has the 90,000ish number?
No. I am asking for proof. Just like I have no proof it's over 70k. If someone can come up with an accurate figure it would be the first step raising awareness of the issue and looking for a solution. But speculating on the number and sweeping it under the rug like most would rather do isn't going to get us anywhere.
The business community needs to take more leadership on the issue and realize the importance of jobs downtown.
What is the importance of jobs downtown? I'm not asking that in a snarky way, I'm sincerely asking, to the business community, what is that importance? To us as urbanists, yeah, having jobs downtown are vital to a healthy corridor which is important to a healthy city which is important to a healthy region. Sure, I guess that could help business, but plenty of them seem to be doing just fine on their county campuses.
shimmy wrote:What is the importance of jobs downtown? I'm not asking that in a snarky way, I'm sincerely asking, to the business community, what is that importance? To us as urbanists, yeah, having jobs downtown are vital to a healthy corridor which is important to a healthy city which is important to a healthy region. Sure, I guess that could help business, but plenty of them seem to be doing just fine on their county campuses.
Are you asking why they should prefer DT over the suburbs?
^^ I think the benefit for concentrating office employment varies depending upon the company, but in general there are several important benefits that I believe are starting to be recognized more and more. It increases networking, stimulates creativity and offers a more enriched environment and commuting access for workers that increasingly are wanting the downtown experience.
“312 Elm is a great building, but it’s a few blocks west of the center core where business gets done,” Mellott told me....
Mangialardo also said one of Mellott’s goals with the move was to be closer to the core of the city. Even though the Enquirer building isn’t far from the heart of downtown, Scripps Center is closer. The firm wanted to be able to run into more people to network with, Mangialardo said.
“They wanted to get right in the heart of the action,” Mangialardo said.
This article made me think again about the weakening of our downtown core office area with a further move south of Market by Laclede Gas and Anders... not a big deal but it does dissipate office worker density even further and probably add to BPV and Cupples area restaurants at the expense of the North of Market core.
Now one thing I've never thought about is a residential to jobs trade off.
Would we still be worried if downtown had 70k jobs and a 20k residential population? How about 50k jobs but a 40k residential population? 45k and 45k?
Great question! Supposedly we are at 14,000 or so including Columbus Square and Carr Square so maybe around 10K in downtown and downtown west. I'd still be grumbling if we doubled that to 20K in D & DW but still had a dismal jobs base. However, I think that level of residential would be getting close to crossing the tipping point for creating a truly vibrant neighborhood that simultaneously would be a big draw for employers. At some point, it should be a win/win as we add more residents.
Somewhat similar, I've also thought about the degree to which our sucky downtown jobs base has made it easier to develop our growing residential numbers. The low rents on buildings with little prospect for landing office tenants certainly has played a meaningful role on making the financials work out on the historic building conversions. Pittsburgh is a city that has pretty much retained a decent office market even through rough times and now is one of the healthiest in the nation; but it appears that the downtown residential growth has only started more recently.
What kind of DT population growth are we looking at with all the new residential units proposed? In those units, what will be the avg. #/residents? Maybe 2? When they're all done (and I'm not including things like Drury Tower and BPV), what will that bring DT's population up to if we assume that every unit gets leased?
^ I'd be more conservative at 1.5 people per unit as it doesn't seem there is a whole lot of 2 and 3 bedrooms in the works. Maybe 1,500 residents? I'd say 2,000 at most. We'll need things like the Butler and Jefferson Arms to also come online as well as new construction most likely to close in on 20k for downtown proper.
roger wyoming II wrote:^^ I think the benefit for concentrating office employment varies depending upon the company, but in general there are several important benefits that I believe are starting to be recognized more and more. It increases networking, stimulates creativity and offers a more enriched environment and commuting access for workers that increasingly are wanting the downtown experience.
Right, but do those benefits outweigh the benefits of being able to drive 4 minutes from your suburban McMansion to work in a clean, crime-free area?
Until they do, I wouldn't expect much movement on that front, especially not here.
^ Maybe for now, but the country club olds are retiring and hopefully a new generation of corporate leaders is emerging in Saint Louis... actually I think it is occurring to some extent, like Ed Jones realizing it has to change its model and target young, urban people if it is to grow... might as well have an employee immersion office downtown! "Young recruit, we are now going to go to BPV and Washington Avenue. Your task at the end will be to determine the differences between Yo-Bros and hipsters!"
Just a little insight on the demand/demographics for DT's residential.
I rent out my loft down there now. My current renter is moving (27 year-old female) and I put it up on craigslist 2 weeks ago. In 2 weeks I've had 8 showings and 2 offers. The showings consisted of the following:
1) A late 30's couple w/ an 8month old from Knoxville, TN. He just took a job as a professor for SLU.
2) A mid 20s female and her boyfriend who were moving here from NJ so she start her residency at Wash U.
3) A late 20s/early 30s couple (he is a city fireman and she worked at the Scottrade Center) who wanted to move from their house around Gravois and Grand area due to crime.
4) A late 20s female (who works downtown) and her boyfriend. They moved to Richmond Heights from Chicago a year ago and wanted more walkability and a urban feel.
5) A late 20s male from Chicago who had just take a job in the 600 Washington building.
6) An early 40s couple who currently live downtown and wanted a better space.
7) An early 30s female from Marion, IL who had just taken a job with the SLPS.
An early 30s male who works from home and currently lives in U-City.
Knowitall wrote:Gov defense mapping place across the street from Budweiser is on the chopping block, 5,000 job and $4m in earnings tax lose if it happens
I truly hope this does not happen. If it does there should be outrage with the feds and our representation in the legislature.
robertn42 wrote:Just a little insight on the demand/demographics for DT's residential.
I rent out my loft down there now. My current renter is moving (27 year-old female) and I put it up on craigslist 2 weeks ago. In 2 weeks I've had 8 showings and 2 offers. The showings consisted of the following:
1) A late 30's couple w/ an 8month old from Knoxville, TN. He just took a job as a professor for SLU.
2) A mid 20s female and her boyfriend who were moving here from NJ so she start her residency at Wash U.
3) A late 20s/early 30s couple (he is a city fireman and she worked at the Scottrade Center) who wanted to move from their house around Gravois and Grand area due to crime.
4) A late 20s female (who works downtown) and her boyfriend. They moved to Richmond Heights from Chicago a year ago and wanted more walkability and a urban feel.
5) A late 20s male from Chicago who had just take a job in the 600 Washington building.
6) An early 40s couple who currently live downtown and wanted a better space.
7) An early 30s female from Marion, IL who had just taken a job with the SLPS.
An early 30s male who works from home and currently lives in U-City.
So mainly people that are in the 25-45 age range that are not from the STL area. Agree?
^ I agree from what I have seen most transplants have little desire to live in the suburbs unless they have kids. A lot of the growth we see in the city is directly related to transplants. I think we as St. Louisans have this idea that everybody that is here was born, lives, and dies in St. Louis. Not realizing that in a given decade literally hundreds of thousands of people leave and arrive St. Louis, just like any other major metropolis. We also are getting a lot of people from other countries that don't have the same urban and racial stigmas that make many Americans fearful of city living. Many people from big urban cities and even small rural towns are immediately attracted to our inner city and it boggles their minds how we could have abandoned such a beautiful city. I guy from Philadelphia once told me that St. Louis is like a smaller, friendly, and cleaner Philadelphia and if people from the East Coast ever discovered it, they would be moving here in droves making it unaffordable overnight. I've even had people from Chicago come to St. Louis and locals will trash St. Louis to them, they seem to have this weird look on their face like they cant believe St. Louisans have such low self esteem. I have relatives from Nashville that visit St. Louis and always mention how much more progressive and fast paced St. Louis is compared to Tennessee living, but Nashville is growing because they have a can do attitude. I brought friends from Miami to St. Louis once and they were totally shocked, they were expecting little house on the prairie and found a "happening town" as they put it, they are well traveled and wondered why they never heard St. Louis was so cool. The stories go on and on.
We take our museums, architecture, amenities, even our smallish light rail system for granted and don't leverage it correctly. I'm starting to think esteem is one of our biggest issues.
I'm happy to announce that I have talked my parents into getting a place downtown, my mom just turned 50 and dad is 56, lived in south city since 1996 and just have no desire to live in the burbs dad said he rather just get it all over with then live in the burbs and he really doesn't want yard work anymore. So after looking all around, I made a case for downtown and they bought it. They will rent first to see how it goes and then buy within a year or 2
^ that's crazy.... the same guy from Brookings is used as a primary source for both! Seems like the one year numbers slowed a bit for cities but still is growing.
I do worry a bit though on the impact on a return to looser mortgage requirements.... I think the tighter era has benefitted cities, including Saint Louis, and there may be a good deal of pent up demand for young families wanting to move out. We'll see.
roger wyoming II wrote:^ that's crazy.... the same guy from Brookings is used as a primary source for both! Seems like the one year numbers slowed a bit for cities but still is growing.
I do worry a bit though on the impact on a return to looser mortgage requirements.... I think the tighter era has benefitted cities, including Saint Louis, and there may be a good deal of pent up demand for young families wanting to move out. We'll see.
Or 20 something's wanting to move out of their parents basement to the city.
goat314 wrote:^ I agree from what I have seen most transplants have little desire to live in the suburbs unless they have kids. A lot of the growth we see in the city is directly related to transplants. I think we as St. Louisans have this idea that everybody that is here was born, lives, and dies in St. Louis. Not realizing that in a given decade literally hundreds of thousands of people leave and arrive St. Louis, just like any other major metropolis. We also are getting a lot of people from other countries that don't have the same urban and racial stigmas that make many Americans fearful of city living. Many people from big urban cities and even small rural towns are immediately attracted to our inner city and it boggles their minds how we could have abandoned such a beautiful city. I guy from Philadelphia once told me that St. Louis is like a smaller, friendly, and cleaner Philadelphia and if people from the East Coast ever discovered it, they would be moving here in droves making it unaffordable overnight. I've even had people from Chicago come to St. Louis and locals will trash St. Louis to them, they seem to have this weird look on their face like they cant believe St. Louisans have such low self esteem. I have relatives from Nashville that visit St. Louis and always mention how much more progressive and fast paced St. Louis is compared to Tennessee living, but Nashville is growing because they have a can do attitude. I brought friends from Miami to St. Louis once and they were totally shocked, they were expecting little house on the prairie and found a "happening town" as they put it, they are well traveled and wondered why they never heard St. Louis was so cool. The stories go on and on.
We take our museums, architecture, amenities, even our smallish light rail system for granted and don't leverage it correctly. I'm starting to think esteem is one of our biggest issues.
Goat, I 100% agree. My job takes me to cities similar in size to St Louis on a weekly basis. St Louis trumps them all. This is not being a homer. The majority of St Louisians have no idea how good we have it here. We have all the amenities of a top 5/top 10 city combined with the beautiful architecture and dense urban fabric of the older larger east coast cities. However, this makes it even more frustrating that we haven't cultivated these foundations to make St Louis a truly world class city.
I used to love living downtown and hearing people not from St Louis commenting on how much they liked it here.
Sidenote: My biggest pet-peeve is sitting on a plane listening to someone from the outer suburbs talk about how bad the city is to their seatmate from another city. The suburbanite never has any idea of what the city is really like and their only exposure is Cardinal games or stories from the local news. It drives me mad, its horrible for St Louis, and happens all of the time.
roger wyoming II wrote:^ that's crazy.... the same guy from Brookings is used as a primary source for both! Seems like the one year numbers slowed a bit for cities but still is growing.
exactly. the WSJ article is just a sensational spin on a short-term fluctuation. journalism is BS these days.
goat314 wrote: I have relatives from Nashville that visit St. Louis and always mention how much more progressive and fast paced St. Louis is compared to Tennessee living, but Nashville is growing because they have a can do attitude.
Yes, yes, yes! We need a lot more of the Can Do Attitude that other cities have. Not just to get people to visit the Arch or dine, but that we're crafting the City as the place to live and do business.
Others recently posted the renderings for the modest proposals that were last put forth for the Washington & Tucker and Washington & 14th infill opportunities:
Tucker and Washington
14th & Washington, originally proposed as Skyhouse
I'd like to see the 14th & Washington site be more floors than that last proposal, but I certainly think the market is ready for development at these two spots now.
