Kitchen Sink is at roughly 6th and Washington (about a block north of Washington on 6th). We took an Uber to the MX building and walked from there to the Kitchen Sink and back. Sen Thai is located in the Shell Building, so we parked behind the Central Library (by the NLEC and that park) during dinner, and then drove to the MX for the movie. Had we felt more comfortable walking back there late at night we likely would have left our car and walked to the movie.downtown2007 wrote:Did you go down Washington Ave or another street?
I was downtown to day for lunch and it did not seem dead not bustling too but had a good crowd. Did not see any homeless people but saw some make shift beds in old store fronts in downtown west.
What would help downtown if the media would not over-blow every crime downtown.
Last month a guy got beaten and robed in Kirkwood and was just a foot note on the news.
What would help downtown if the media would not over-blow every crime downtown.
Last month a guy got beaten and robed in Kirkwood and was just a foot note on the news.
I know some people want to "live in the moment" or be mindful of their surroundings, but I wish people would post a few pictures to demonstrate their downtown experience.
With that said, the desolation after 6pm is City Hall's problem. They, it seems, simply aren't doing enough to make downtown enjoyable and safe after 6pm. No retail. No after hours events that lure street activity - even in winter. At least if downtown had some retail, it could attract some Christmas shoppers.
Let's keep mind too that it is the holiday season - so people travel out of town and out of the country. It is also colder temperatures.
Also, despite the fact homeless people exist in every downtown in every major urban city in America, the difference in downtown St. Louis, it seems, is that general pedestrian activity doesn't balance out the homeless population except around the Gateway Arch/Market/Broadway area.
People will go downtown to work and to venues for concerts, BPV mall, sports, plays etc., but most leave afterwards.
A couple of things:
1. The City Treasurer's Office needs to relax parking meters on Friday evenings, Saturdays and Sundays.
2. It's too late, but BPV Phase I shouldn't have been built as an enclosed mall. Most of the restaurants probably should have been street level and on an urban street grid.
With that said, the desolation after 6pm is City Hall's problem. They, it seems, simply aren't doing enough to make downtown enjoyable and safe after 6pm. No retail. No after hours events that lure street activity - even in winter. At least if downtown had some retail, it could attract some Christmas shoppers.
Let's keep mind too that it is the holiday season - so people travel out of town and out of the country. It is also colder temperatures.
Also, despite the fact homeless people exist in every downtown in every major urban city in America, the difference in downtown St. Louis, it seems, is that general pedestrian activity doesn't balance out the homeless population except around the Gateway Arch/Market/Broadway area.
People will go downtown to work and to venues for concerts, BPV mall, sports, plays etc., but most leave afterwards.
A couple of things:
1. The City Treasurer's Office needs to relax parking meters on Friday evenings, Saturdays and Sundays.
2. It's too late, but BPV Phase I shouldn't have been built as an enclosed mall. Most of the restaurants probably should have been street level and on an urban street grid.
Granted I've only lived downtown since August, but in that time I feel like downtown has slowly but surely gotten livelier and livelier. Yes, sometimes it's dead. A few businesses have closed. But overall I see more people walking along Wash Ave on an average day/night in December than I did in August. Tucker has more traffic now than it did in August. Of course this is all anecdotal and I have no data to back it up, but downtown feels more dynamic to me now than it did when I moved in in August. Which is a good thing.
I'm sure some will disagree, but my perception is downtown is getting less and less vibrant...at least in the core CBD around 4th, Olive, Locust, Broadway, etc.
I've worked DT since 2007 and the streets really do feel emptier now...even during the day. The only time I see lots of people on the street is during lunch. A lot of time, i'm the only person on the sidewalk on the whole block, and this is walking to Culinaria or the new Gyro place from around 4th street.
There are just too many empty or underutilized buildings and, to be honest, really old, ugly and crumbling infrastructure doesn't make downtown very attractive.
I feel downtown has nodes of activity, but they aren't connected to create a truly vibrant atmosphere or a cohesive DT experience.
I love working DT and i'm not bad mouthing it, but, to me, it feels like it's on life support.
I've worked DT since 2007 and the streets really do feel emptier now...even during the day. The only time I see lots of people on the street is during lunch. A lot of time, i'm the only person on the sidewalk on the whole block, and this is walking to Culinaria or the new Gyro place from around 4th street.
There are just too many empty or underutilized buildings and, to be honest, really old, ugly and crumbling infrastructure doesn't make downtown very attractive.
I feel downtown has nodes of activity, but they aren't connected to create a truly vibrant atmosphere or a cohesive DT experience.
I love working DT and i'm not bad mouthing it, but, to me, it feels like it's on life support.
- 10K
I spend most of my time in the same area, and I agree. Sometimes, walking down Locust I feel like I'm on the set of the Walking Dead - the only people I see are folks that don't really seem to have any particular place to go.olvidarte wrote:I'm sure some will disagree, but my perception is downtown is getting less and less vibrant...at least in the core CBD around 4th, Olive, Locust, Broadway, etc.
I've worked DT since 2007 and the streets really do feel emptier now...even during the day. The only time I see lots of people on the street is during lunch. A lot of time, i'm the only person on the sidewalk on the whole block, and this is walking to Culinaria or the new Gyro place from around 4th street.
There are just too many empty or underutilized buildings and, to be honest, really old, ugly and crumbling infrastructure doesn't make downtown very attractive.
I feel downtown has nodes of activity, but they aren't connected to create a truly vibrant atmosphere or a cohesive DT experience.
I love working DT and i'm not bad mouthing it, but, to me, it feels like it's on life support.
Washington is usually pretty active during the day. Olive still is, but less than it used to be with Macy's closed. The Starbucks on Olive is a minor hub of activity. Culinaria helps.
Right now we have two vacant major buildings - the Railway Exchange and the Mercantile Library - that really suck the life out of the core of downtown.
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Don't forget the AT&T building. If we could convince all of these companies that keep relocating/building on the periphery of the Metro area to stay/move DT, it would be the place to be. We will continue to shoot ourselves in the foot as a region as long as we refuse to at least collaborate on economic development priorities.
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A few things....
The homeless situation is one that downtown is left for dead with. We have a high concentration of service providers that are left servicing the homeless population of the entire region and beyond. We really need to spread out the services. More neighborhoods and the county need to help out servicing the homeless. If not downtown, the region, and the homeless will continue to suffer. And as one already mentioned, STL has a relatively small homeless population compared to other regions. The lack of people at times makes the homeless population seem more present than it does in a lot of other cities like SF and Seattle, who have much larger populations.
Downtown STL is the highest revenue generator for the city. Yes, we are the golden goose. However, all that revenue goes into the general fund which is then distributed to the neighborhoods. We get back pennies on the dollar. Other downtowns like Denver and KC get back roughly 20% of what they generate and it is noticeable. We need to capture more of the revenue that is produced. We need that revenue for more police coverage and update our infrastructure. Create a safe downtown and let it prosper. It will generate more revenue which in turn, helps the neighborhoods. A rising tide lifts all boats if done properly.
The news continues to blast away negative coverage about downtown to the point where it's not fair. Any crime is treated differently when it happens downtown than if it happened elsewhere. It creates a lot of unnecessary fear. It's as if everyone rejoices in its struggles.
Until these things happen downtown will continue to plod along.
The homeless situation is one that downtown is left for dead with. We have a high concentration of service providers that are left servicing the homeless population of the entire region and beyond. We really need to spread out the services. More neighborhoods and the county need to help out servicing the homeless. If not downtown, the region, and the homeless will continue to suffer. And as one already mentioned, STL has a relatively small homeless population compared to other regions. The lack of people at times makes the homeless population seem more present than it does in a lot of other cities like SF and Seattle, who have much larger populations.
Downtown STL is the highest revenue generator for the city. Yes, we are the golden goose. However, all that revenue goes into the general fund which is then distributed to the neighborhoods. We get back pennies on the dollar. Other downtowns like Denver and KC get back roughly 20% of what they generate and it is noticeable. We need to capture more of the revenue that is produced. We need that revenue for more police coverage and update our infrastructure. Create a safe downtown and let it prosper. It will generate more revenue which in turn, helps the neighborhoods. A rising tide lifts all boats if done properly.
The news continues to blast away negative coverage about downtown to the point where it's not fair. Any crime is treated differently when it happens downtown than if it happened elsewhere. It creates a lot of unnecessary fear. It's as if everyone rejoices in its struggles.
Until these things happen downtown will continue to plod along.
A little bit of optimistic news for the crowd
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 2af1b.html
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 2af1b.html
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My largest gripe in the theme of "downtown subsidizes other neighborhoods" theme is that every person I had the opportunity to vote for in the 7th ward election lived in Soulard. Tough not to prioritize your own neighborhood over other ones. Id love for there to be a special downtown alderperson. Its the most important neighborhood in the city.
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^ I don't know which is better.... having a downtown-centric single ward or having several alders rep it like now. Obviously things aren't working out like they should now, but I think that is more of a lack of overall leadership.
On a separate note, I think the breakdown/cancellation in the Citygarden's planned holiday move series this week is symbolic of downtown... just not where it should be/needs to be.
On a separate note, I think the breakdown/cancellation in the Citygarden's planned holiday move series this week is symbolic of downtown... just not where it should be/needs to be.
Interesting conversation.
I imagine the daytime decline is directly related to job flight, with retail flight as a secondary cause. And I would think any nightlife flight would be impacted by the emergence of some great nightlife neighborhoods, namely The Grove, but also Cherokee.
I suppose it's a longterm play, but I still think residents are the best path to Downtown vitality. Keep chipping away at the buildings, Union Trust, Chemical, Jefferson Arms, Mercantile Library, Butler Bros. - a 100 apartments here, a 100 apartments there - and it will (eventually) support the retail, dining and general street life that Downtown needs to thrive. Of course it would help to bring 1,000 workers to the AT&T building, and have a major employer move to Downtown, but that's the kind of silver bullet thinking that should be icing on the cake, not the primary strategy of Downtown revitalization.
IMO not much has worked to revitalize Downtown thus far. Lumiere and BPV are flops in my opinion (at least in that regard), the Dome and Peabody are less flops but still attract a mostly park and leave crowd. I think residential multi-family redevelopment has made the biggest impact, with the academic investments of SLU Law and now Webster, City Garden and hopefully the Arch Grounds renovation (which I have a lot of faith in), and increasing signs of DT's tech incubation efforts paying tangible dividends. Residential, academics, truly attractive/engaging investment in existing park spaces, and encouragement/accommodation of start-ups - I think if Downtown sticks with that game plan it will gain the vibrancy and momentum it aspires to, just not overnight, perhaps not even in this decade.
I imagine the daytime decline is directly related to job flight, with retail flight as a secondary cause. And I would think any nightlife flight would be impacted by the emergence of some great nightlife neighborhoods, namely The Grove, but also Cherokee.
I suppose it's a longterm play, but I still think residents are the best path to Downtown vitality. Keep chipping away at the buildings, Union Trust, Chemical, Jefferson Arms, Mercantile Library, Butler Bros. - a 100 apartments here, a 100 apartments there - and it will (eventually) support the retail, dining and general street life that Downtown needs to thrive. Of course it would help to bring 1,000 workers to the AT&T building, and have a major employer move to Downtown, but that's the kind of silver bullet thinking that should be icing on the cake, not the primary strategy of Downtown revitalization.
IMO not much has worked to revitalize Downtown thus far. Lumiere and BPV are flops in my opinion (at least in that regard), the Dome and Peabody are less flops but still attract a mostly park and leave crowd. I think residential multi-family redevelopment has made the biggest impact, with the academic investments of SLU Law and now Webster, City Garden and hopefully the Arch Grounds renovation (which I have a lot of faith in), and increasing signs of DT's tech incubation efforts paying tangible dividends. Residential, academics, truly attractive/engaging investment in existing park spaces, and encouragement/accommodation of start-ups - I think if Downtown sticks with that game plan it will gain the vibrancy and momentum it aspires to, just not overnight, perhaps not even in this decade.
I 100% agree. Adding residents takes control of the situation. DT can't count on the fickleness of the nightlife crowd and employers. As long as there are people there is life. The rental occupancy rates support more development. Now we need developers that are willing to leave the safety of the suburbs and invest. It's striking to me that some of the best and largest developments in the city are done by developers from out of town.wabash wrote:Interesting conversation.
I imagine the daytime decline is directly related to job flight, with retail flight as a secondary cause. And I would think any nightlife flight would be impacted by the emergence of some great nightlife neighborhoods, namely The Grove, but also Cherokee.
I suppose it's a longterm play, but I still think residents are the best path to Downtown vitality. Keep chipping away at the buildings, Union Trust, Chemical, Jefferson Arms, Mercantile Library, Butler Bros. - a 100 apartments here, a 100 apartments there - and it will (eventually) support the retail, dining and general street life that Downtown needs to thrive. Of course it would help to bring 1,000 workers to the AT&T building, and have a major employer move to Downtown, but that's the kind of silver bullet thinking that should be icing on the cake, not the primary strategy of Downtown revitalization.
IMO not much has worked to revitalize Downtown thus far. Lumiere and BPV are flops in my opinion (at least in that regard), the Dome and Peabody are less flops but still attract a mostly park and leave crowd. I think residential multi-family redevelopment has made the biggest impact, with the academic investments of SLU Law and now Webster, City Garden and hopefully the Arch Grounds renovation (which I have a lot of faith in), and increasing signs of DT's tech incubation efforts paying tangible dividends. Residential, academics, truly attractive/engaging investment in existing park spaces, and encouragement/accommodation of start-ups - I think if Downtown sticks with that game plan it will gain the vibrancy and momentum it aspires to, just not overnight, perhaps not even in this decade.
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I think the most frustrating thing is the fact that I felt like we had so much momentum DT and here we are, regressing. Wash. Ave. was always a place we could turn to, to make ourselves feel better about DT. I know it is premature to say Wash. Ave. is in decline, but a few staple establishments closing, the lack of streetscape maintenance and the lesser foot traffic, makes it feel like we’ve taken a step back. Throw in the Landing’s misfortunes and it really gets me down. I think most of us understood that ‘silver bullet’ developments like BPV and Lumiere do not spur development, but actually suck life from other areas. People do not leave these places to patronize other local establishments. The Lockerdome announcement is big, but we need more. Let’s hope the tech sector and Webster U. can help Wash. Ave. Keep chipping away at vacant buildings, adding residents, to create more and more vibrancy. Work diligently with local companies to do everything in our power to keep them DT… Hardees, AT&T, Ralcorp. . . etc…. The City has got to find a way to stop the street crime, robberies, assaults and even murders. One murder can really keep people away, since the media blows it out of proportion. Perception is everything. I hope the crime plan that Slay & French came up with, works for the entire city, not just French’s ward. As mentioned, spread out the homeless shelters throughout the region, not so concentrated in DT. I’m really hoping the successes in the central corridor, will eventually spread DT and to Midtown/Midtown Alley. A streetcar could help connect everything. I’d love to see a strong, dense and completely filled-in corridor, from the Arch to Clayton. (No dead zones) In the end, it comes down to jobs and residents. Then everything else will come.
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Good discussion here.... my 2c is that it has to be both jobs and residential. I don't think we can expect to add enough residents alone to reach the needed level of vitality for years to come. In addition, having a strong jobs density in the CBD is vitally important not just for the health of downtown as a neighborhood, but also for the region as a whole.... it is only through that density that we can expect to make solid gains with such things as transit expansion and rebuilding the core in general.
Fundamentally, I think what downtown needs is a strong, capable downtown organization that plays an active role in developing greater downtown in a smart fashion that fosters both jobs and residential growth. Downtown Saint Louis currently is not that organization; it needs an overhaul and greater financial resources. And as downtown2007 said, being able to recapture more revenue generated downtown for projects and infrastructure is needed.
Fundamentally, I think what downtown needs is a strong, capable downtown organization that plays an active role in developing greater downtown in a smart fashion that fosters both jobs and residential growth. Downtown Saint Louis currently is not that organization; it needs an overhaul and greater financial resources. And as downtown2007 said, being able to recapture more revenue generated downtown for projects and infrastructure is needed.
wrt the Lockerdome move (late next year, I believe), it will be interesting to see how the musical chairs play... what moves into their vacated space? where do the fitness center and McGowan Bros. offices -- currently in the new space -- move to? On that last one, Biz Journal said McGowan Bros. still have an interest in Jefferson Arms and speculated they may want to move there. That would be awesome if they could pull off a mixed-use redevelopment announcement next year.
I think the issue with downtown St. Louis is indicative of our entire slow-growth region.
Fragmentation.
For a metro area of this size, I think we have a disproportionate amount of competition (often tax subsidized) among:
"central business districts” (downtown STL, downtown Clayton, CWE/Cortex)
"entertainment districts” (Downtown, Soulard, CWE, Grove, Loop, Landing, Ballpark Village, etc.)
"residential districts." (Downtown, Soulard, CWE, Grove, Loop, etc.)
Quite simply, I’m not sure we have enough people/jobs/residents to support all of this stuff successfully.
Furthermore, I don’t think any other metro of our size has a CBD that’s split between two areas like we have with DT St. Louis and DT Clayton.
Fragmentation.
For a metro area of this size, I think we have a disproportionate amount of competition (often tax subsidized) among:
"central business districts” (downtown STL, downtown Clayton, CWE/Cortex)
"entertainment districts” (Downtown, Soulard, CWE, Grove, Loop, Landing, Ballpark Village, etc.)
"residential districts." (Downtown, Soulard, CWE, Grove, Loop, etc.)
Quite simply, I’m not sure we have enough people/jobs/residents to support all of this stuff successfully.
Furthermore, I don’t think any other metro of our size has a CBD that’s split between two areas like we have with DT St. Louis and DT Clayton.
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^right! as one area improves another goes down hill. Until we have a growing population we'll see this continue.
I think it's more nuanced than that though. Yes, St. Louis is a slow growth region. But Downtown, all of the neighborhoods you mentioned (except The Grove), and the Central Corridor as a whole are growing. Even in a zero-sum vacuum, Downtown is attracting residents away from or at a greater clip than other parts of the City and region.soulardx wrote:I think the issue with downtown St. Louis is indicative of our entire slow-growth region.
Quite simply, I’m not sure we have enough people/jobs/residents to support all of this stuff successfully.
Last decade Downtown saw enormous population growth, and continues to add a few hundred residents a year, probably keeping it as one of the fastest growing neighborhoods (residentially) in the City. At the neighborhood level - even with all of the competition from Clayton, the County, neighboring counties, and other City neighborhoods (particularly the CWE), Downtown residentially is still a growth story. It's slowed since the idea of loft apartment living was meaningfully introduced to the area, but it continues steadily.
Maybe there aren't "enough people/jobs/residents to support all this stuff successfully", but Downtown is increasingly one of the areas within the region that is being supported the most. CWE and Clayton seem to be seeing the most support currently - probably as a product of being able to attract both residents AND jobs to a dense/walkable setting - but DT is certainly a part of the overall Central Corridor growth story that's emerged since at least the turn of the century.
It's not a question of if St. Louis can support a thriving Downtown. As a Metro of 2.8 million St. Louis could support a Downtown of 30,000 residents and 100,000 jobs, even without any regional population growth. It's a matter of making the investments and policy choices that encourage and enable such an outcome.
^ I think it will just take time. Downtown is certainly moving in the right direction and as abandoned buildings keep getting redeveloped, downtown will incrementally start to fill robust. I no longer live in St. Louis and I can definitely tell the difference when I come back. I think people that see downtown regularly don't appreciate the big changes that have happened. The biggest issue facing downtown is the lack of a cohesive streetscapes and security. I think a clean and well lit downtown will go a long way to creating an inviting environment and incentivizing further development. I have no doubt that downtown will be much more vibrant 5, 10, 20 years from now. One thing is for sure, neighborhood redevelopment is usually characterized by starts and stops. We may have a couple year period where development is slower, then all of sudden...BOOM!
apologies for not being able to use the quote function, so please bear with me......
"It's a matter of making the investments and policy choices that encourage and enable such an outcome." Please elaborate. What realistic investments/choices would you recommend? I'm not being antagonistic at all. Love to hear your thoughts.
I can't say I agree with this either: "Downtown is increasingly one of the areas within the region that is being supported the most." As a downtown worker since 2007 (and consumer/diner/drinker since the mid 90s), I'm rather tired of hearing this question from colleagues (visiting from other offices): "Why are there no people in downtown St. Louis?" As much as I am a proud St. Louisan, I can't help but be embarrassed when I hear that question. Since 2007, I've heard that questions often too. And, these aren't colleagues from NY/Chicago. They’re from Minneapolis, Baltimore, Denver, Charlotte.
Form my eyes -- eyes that are downtown ~50 hours a week -- at best downtown foot traffic is the same now as it was in 2007. (The lone exception may be blocks around the Culinaria at lunch.) Sure, there are more residents and there's been some topnotch cosmetic changes like MX, but there are no more people in the streets during the day. And to me, that's the true mark of a vibrant downtown -- foot traffic.
"It's a matter of making the investments and policy choices that encourage and enable such an outcome." Please elaborate. What realistic investments/choices would you recommend? I'm not being antagonistic at all. Love to hear your thoughts.
I can't say I agree with this either: "Downtown is increasingly one of the areas within the region that is being supported the most." As a downtown worker since 2007 (and consumer/diner/drinker since the mid 90s), I'm rather tired of hearing this question from colleagues (visiting from other offices): "Why are there no people in downtown St. Louis?" As much as I am a proud St. Louisan, I can't help but be embarrassed when I hear that question. Since 2007, I've heard that questions often too. And, these aren't colleagues from NY/Chicago. They’re from Minneapolis, Baltimore, Denver, Charlotte.
Form my eyes -- eyes that are downtown ~50 hours a week -- at best downtown foot traffic is the same now as it was in 2007. (The lone exception may be blocks around the Culinaria at lunch.) Sure, there are more residents and there's been some topnotch cosmetic changes like MX, but there are no more people in the streets during the day. And to me, that's the true mark of a vibrant downtown -- foot traffic.
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^ My 2c is that downtown is more well-rounded as a neighborhood compared to 10 years ago (with some exceptions with certain losses of retail such as Left Bank Books) but I agree the growth in residential has yet to reach the level of density needed to make things hustle and bustle. (And that's part of the reason why we need more jobs and more residents.)
But I fully agree with Wabash that our region is more than capable of having a more vibrant downtown in addition to the other established and up-and-coming neighborhoods around this slowly-growing burg. Change can happen quickly, and I believe we are on the cusp of some great things if we can just fit some of those last few pieces of the puzzle together.
But I fully agree with Wabash that our region is more than capable of having a more vibrant downtown in addition to the other established and up-and-coming neighborhoods around this slowly-growing burg. Change can happen quickly, and I believe we are on the cusp of some great things if we can just fit some of those last few pieces of the puzzle together.
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In regards to some concerned comments about the recent closures of a few businesses. I don't necessarily view it as a bad thing, but merely look at the business mix as turning over. We will see what goes in those places that recently closed on Wash Ave but it may be better establishments. The Dubliner and Prime were great, but they had warts and could have executed better. I actually wouldn't mind a few more longtime businesses (Copia, Side Bar) close.
Plus there have been some great additions to the MX.
Plus there have been some great additions to the MX.
- 8,155
^ no doubt. The restaurant/bar biz is a tough one and regular closings are just going to happen no matter where. I'd say 2015 has been a pretty good year, we've had a national chain, regional chain and at least a half dozen local independents open up shop this past year... with a few more highly anticipated restaurants scheduled to open soon.
About those highly anticipated restaurants: http://www.stlmag.com/dining/the-10-mos ... -for-2016/