urbanSTL

^Well, sort of. Articles from a few weeks back when it was for sale suggest he was mainly looking to exit the business because of his health.

I'm sure lagging sales since BPV opened has impacted the market for a sale, though. But hopefully there's still some chance it could reopen under new ownership. I'd hate to lose that sign...

BPV didn't claim anything. The Dubliner claimed The Dubliner.

Any ideas on future tenants?

I went out on Wash Ave for the first time in awhile a month or so ago, and frankly it was startling how dead it was compared to how I remember it 2, 3, 4 years back.

Is it really all BPV's doing?

DowntownNick wrote:Yes, I remember when BPV first opened. Wash Ave was empty for months before some people started coming back. Dubliner was packed right before BPV opened up, then all of a sudden it was only my little group of friends going there.

The shooting on Tucker and the shooting in front of City Museum did Wash Ave no favors either. I live on Wash Ave and it hasn't been the same. People are actually scared to go to Wash Ave when I bring it up. People ask me if I'm safe walking around.

BPV started the downfall, but bad PR is what is keeping it down.

You're right, BPV was just one of many things that happened. High profile crime events have caused irrational fear of the area keeping many patrons away. Wash Ave is probably safer than it was 4 years ago but it's hard to convince people of that when a high profile event occurs.

Dubliner was on my about-once-every-two-weeks lunch rotation, for about five years, until this week. I enjoyed it; it was reliable and good quality. Now, I get that lunch was clearly not their main revenue generator, but I can say for certain that the lunch crowd dwindled significantly after BPV opened. The staff said as much as well. It may not have been the only reason for its closure, but it could have been the proverbial last straw.

Ballpark Village and crime are certainly legitimate factors for Wash Ave's slowdown. No doubt. But BPV and crime aren't the only factors:

A) A lot of the venues on Wash Ave are dependent on convention traffic. When there's a convention, everyone fights each other for the customers by dropping prices/ offering deals/ spends a lot on marketing which eats into profit, etc. When there's not a convention, things are much slower.

B) While still on Wash Ave, the MX development has shifted traffic to the east from the rest of Wash Ave and has cut off all the venues from 10th to the west from the convention traffic.

C) Nothing new, unique and exciting has opened in a couple years on Wash Ave. New blood can really help areas like this so hopefully the recent vacancies in the area will result in new and exciting concepts. Porano Pasta by Niche will hopefully kick start this. Taze should be noted as well. Hiro is fantastic but its far enough west to not signficantly impact on the rest of Wash Ave. Please note: I love Pi, CBW, and Robust but they're multi-location so they have limited draw to Wash Ave (meaning someone in Kirkwood, Chesterfield, CWE won't come to Wash Ave for these restaurants).

D) The surviving venues have done little to change with the times. Same concepts, same menus, no new exciting chefs, no remodels. Dubliner comes to mind.

E) Other areas of St Louis have improved their restaurant and nightlife options like Midtown, South Grand, Grove, CWE, & Delmar Loop in the last 5-10 years. Also, Flying Saucer Draft Emporium and The Wheelhouse by Busch have opened recently and do over $6 mil collectively in sales annually. Should note the success of David Bailey elsewhere in Downtown and places like Sauce on the Side.

KB, what do you think would fit well in the Dubliner spot?

downtown2007 wrote:KB, what do you think would fit well in the Dubliner spot?

The Dubliner would be great there. Just freshened up and marketed properly.

^^ agree with most of the above.

I live on Wash Ave., but rarely go out to the bars...it's too much of a ruckus. People getting arrested, getting into fights, etc. Whoever said Wash. Ave was dead never went there this summer. It still gets crazy out there if the weather is nice.

24-hour coffee shop would be great, but we can't even get the ones that are down here to stay open past 6pm. Not a lot of food options past 9-10pm, either, and of course, no drug store. For a place that's supposedly targeted toward nightlife, everything but the bars close early.

I think I kind of blame other neighborhoods more than BPV for siphoning away customers, though. I'm not sure BPV draws the same kind of people that Wash. Ave. would. I've never been to BPV myself, and probably would never go there. It's not my style. I have been to just about every place on Washington Ave., though. But even Wash. Ave. doesn't have a ton of stuff I personally like these days. I used to go to Rue 13 all the time...it was one of my favorite bars in the city. But they're closed now. They used to have really good house music on the weekends (the underground kind, not the poppy stuff mixed with trap and hip-hop). But other than that kind of music, I'll usually pick my bars based on beer selection available. In that regard, the Dubliner was pretty bad. The place to do that downtown, the Wheelhouse, isn't on Washington Ave., and they seem to be raking it in.

There's a lot more going on in the Grove these days, and Cherokee has blossomed as well. Midtown has more stuff, too, but not to the same extent. That's gotta be drawing a number of people away that used to hang around these parts. Probably at least as much, if not more. There haven't been a lot of new bars opening up in the CWE, Soulard, TGS, and the Loop, but they haven't fallen back, either.

You would think SLU law and the filled Roberts Tower would have given it a shot in the arm. Maybe the Arcade-Wright will help to turn things around. Getting more permanent residents will certainly help.

I know that Wash. Ave has matured and changed into a much more residential area, but what made it unique, was the club scene. That seems to have long ceased. We had clubs with DJs, dancing and a unique atmosphere on Wash Ave. That is what built Wash Ave. DJ Clubs, music venues and bars. Then the residential followed. While the residential has continued, to me, it seems like the bars down there are not that unique anymore. I am sure the residents prefer a more low-key scene, for the most part. However, IMO, if you are living Downtown, you expect crowds of revelers at the bars and you expect noise and traffic. Living in a very urban environment, it comes with the territory. I think there needs to be unique venues that can somehow stand the test of time. Get clubs in there, that are unique, even if more like lounge clubs. With the Arcade opening and Webster U, there should be more people.

I don't get out on the club scene anymore, but where is the STL club scene based these days? The Grove? CWE? Downtown?

I'd really like to see the parking lots between Lucas and Convention Plaza between 9th and 14th targeted for mid-rise infill residential development. It's basically a total dead zone right now, but it would be an appealing location for anyone who wants to live close to Washington without actually being ON Washington, and it would certainly reinforce all of the great development that's taken place on Washington over the last 15 years or so.

urban_dilettante wrote:Anybody know how MX Movies is doing? I'm concerned that we're going to get bad news about it shutting down before too long...

For real. Does anyone know what's going on with this place? We have a downtown weekend staycation in a couple of weeks and were going to check it out but it looks like the table service is gone, local snacks are gone, and it's no longer listed on St. Louis Cinemas as one of their properties.

The plan was never to keep it with STL cinemas. They just helped in getting it going. Tablets have been gone for awhile. Didn't work out. You can still order at counter and they will bring your food out.

Still a wonderful place to see a movie.

erina wrote:

urban_dilettante wrote:Anybody know how MX Movies is doing? I'm concerned that we're going to get bad news about it shutting down before too long...

For real. Does anyone know what's going on with this place? We have a downtown weekend staycation in a couple of weeks and were going to check it out but it looks like the table service is gone, local snacks are gone, and it's no longer listed on St. Louis Cinemas as one of their properties.

When I went online to buy Star Wars tickets they appeared to still be open.

They are alive and well. Just saw a movie there last week. It's a nice experience.

Went downtown (and to the MX specifically to see Star Wars) twice last weekend. Had generally positive experiences both times, but man... it was dead. Everywhere. Something needs to change Downtown, and soon. I can't see these places making it long term otherwise.

Friday Positives:
* Took an Uber from the CWE to Downtown (and back) without issue. Friendly drivers and quick response times.

* Went to the new Downtown location of the Kitchen Sink. Food was great. Location was cool.

* The MX is much improved for not having the tablets or food service. The in-theater experience was great and the bartenders were friendly and having a blast with the Star Wars crowd.

Friday Negatives:
* The Kitchen Sink was empty except for a single large group, and then my table. At 6:30pm. On Friday night.

* I guess someone has to be the first to activate that space, but the portion of 6th that the Kitchen Sink is on is desolate and sketchy looking at night..

* The crowd was great at MX, but it wasn't sold out. For the 7:50pm show, the opening Friday of Star Wars. And with the design of their auditorium, its not like it seats that many people.

Saturday Positives:
* Went to Senn Thai near the Central Library. Food was excellent

* Went back to the MX to see Star Wars again. Once again, staff and bar service was excellent.

Saturday Negatives:
* Once again, at 6:30 on a weekend night, we were the only people in the restaurant. One additional table came in as we were leaving.

* The area behind the library where we parked is basically filled with homeless people. One was laying right near the machine where you have to pay for parking. Others are just standing around loitering. Makes the whole thing feel sketchy.

* From the time we arrived Downtown until we were inside the MX Theater, the number of homeless people we saw vastly outnumbered the total number of other people downtown dining/shopping/walking around. Not a good impression for visitors at all.

* The garage at the MX was inexplicably closed (with no signs or anything - In fact the "Parking this way" signs that direct you to the garage were still up, but the garage itself was locked up.) We parked at the garage across the street, but this involved walking down a row of empty buildings that felt sketchy at 11:00pm after the movie (not to mention the fact that the garage itself was almost totally empty).

* The theater was less than half full. On Star Wars opening weekend at a 7:50 show on Saturday night.

On the whole it was a good weekend, the dining and theater were both great. But man... the experience around the whole thing really pointed out how far our downtown still has to come. Had I been with out-of-town guests I think I would have found myself constantly apologizing for how deserted and slightly sketchy the whole thing felt.

Did you go down Washington Ave or another street?

Could there be an explanation besides a random dead weekend or is Wash. Ave. and the surrounding areas taken that much of a step backwards? Can this be attributed to BPV? Could it be because the perception is that DT is unsafe, especially from County-folk? I know we have discussed this in other threads, but I'm very concerned. What are DT boosters doing to change this.
As many have mentioned, I remember when Wash. Ave. was packed all weekend and steady during a large part of the week. This is depressing. I think the media has really put a spotlight lately, on the robberies. There have been a few murders over the past few years. As you mentioned, there is a large homeless/panhandler population DT. I was the last Sunday home game and the panhandlers were everywhere, more so than past years I've gone to games. Some I would call "aggressive". Is DT a magnet for the homeless because of the shelters (ie.. Larry Rice) or are they there because it is a good place to beg? I have noticed being down there for work, almost all of the garages, in the staircases reek of urine. I know that is nothing new, but it seems worse than normal. (obvious sign of the homeless). I just wonder, with all of the residential momentum, how DT seems to have taken a step back. Does anyone know how the population ranks compared to previous years?