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PostNov 01, 2007#301

^ Well if downtown retail relies only on those who live and work downtown then we don't have to worry about the MX leasing all of its space.



The MX doesn't need to be luring people from Chesterfield, JeffCo and St. Charles to be successful. But to be successful, MX must be able to attract more than just downtown residents and workers, reaching out into areas such as Old North St. Louis, Soulard, and Lafayette Square for patrons.
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PostNov 01, 2007#302

^ Fair enough - I should have included neighborhoods that are nearer downtown than the Galleria/etc. To be honest, I'm much more excited about the rumored Target/etc. development at Spring/FPP. That would actually be in a spot where parking would be free and it would be closer to the CWE, Tower Grove neighborhoods and SLU and WU students. So maybe downtown should target unique stores while this development has big box stores.
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PostNov 01, 2007#303

Lot's of good points being made here on both sides...



On average how many conventioneers visit DT each year?

On average how many turists visit DT each year?



Shouldn't we add some off these people to the 90k DT workers, 10k DT residents, and XX% of the greater metro who might frequent these shops?



And don't you think this district increase the alll of those figures above once it opens?
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PostNov 01, 2007#304

Bastiat wrote:My question to all of the naysayers: what do you suggest Pyramid do?



Are you against them redeveloping the St. Louis Center with the stores facing outward and redoing the Mercantile Exchange to allow for new retail?



Is redoing the streetscape a bad thing?



Are you against outdoor eating areas in this section of town?



Is giving Macy's a reason to improve their downtown store a bad thing?



Is trying to provide a strong link from Kiener Plaza north to the Dome and Washington Avenue a bad thing?



Are you against them actually bringing in stores that people want to shop in to downtown?



Do you not understand the concept that this will be done in phases over 5 years? Do you believe that Pyramid and General Growth will be too dumb to see how things work out as the plan unfolds?



Answer those questions for me.



I don't get it, people are always getting a boner about this or that national retailer going in downtown, but when a developer hires a company that can actually bring some of those stores downtown, they throw a temper tantrum.



This is not going to have a "Grand Opening", it will come online bit by bit. If the market is not there for the retailers, they will not sign the leases. If national retailers do not want the spaces, then they will be leased to more local retailers. If a certain number of storefronts go vacant, it does not mean people do not walk down 6th street or Olive anymore. If the district "fails" they do not close off the streets in the area and there are no glaring reminders. Worst case scenario: we have nicer looking storefronts and streets that are as empty as they were before they were redone. Not to mention a major eyesore redeveloped in an architectural interesting fashion.



This district has as much chance of "failing" as Washington Avenue. It's possible, but it will only be due to people not wanting to eat, drink, shop and hangout downtown, not because this is "the same as St. Louis Center". The MX is the same as Washington Avenue except that it will be managed by one company.


I'm ready to cheerlead, and I understand the points skeptics have made. I think you've hit the proverbial nail on the head with this post though. Even if this district fails, worst case scenario, the end result is better. And if it fails, it won't be because it was similar to St. Louis Centre.



To me, however, it's the best case scenario. We're undoing the egregious mistake of turning downtown's storefronts inward. We're going to have new life in the city's traditional retail district surrounding Macy's. Since Macy's is apparently sticking around for the long-term if you believe what Pyramid spokespeople have said, it gives us reason to believe they'll improve the store and the company the incentive to do so. It's a phased redevelopment managed by a company with an overall solid track record. Sure, there are many variables, including the right mix of stores, parking and traffic accommodations, along with similarly big projects nearby like Ballpark Village. But I think the basic formula is a good one. Time will tell if it proves to be successful.
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PostNov 01, 2007#305

I think BPV can and should really differentiate from the MX. For instance, I could see a Dave & Buster's type place really taking off in the BPV whereas I wouldn't see it fitting in in MX. I think BPV should be more entertainment, restaurant and bar related as opposed to so much retail.
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PostNov 01, 2007#306

^ I agree. That said, I think one entertainment venue (like a Jillian's or a Gameworks) would be appropriate for MX, especially as a draw to families with children. Overall, though, I think you're right about concentrating entertainment-focused venues in BPV.
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PostNov 01, 2007#307

^ I would kill myself if they put a Dave and Busters in downtown. Talk about reverse suburbanism (Is that a real thing?)
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PostNov 01, 2007#308

^I think it is called 'gentrification'. What is so bad about a Dave & Buster's downtown anyway? There is a Dave & Buster's in, um, Old Town? or River North?, in Chicago. It is very popular for work events and work-related happy hours.
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PostNov 01, 2007#309

I'm not sure what's inherently suburban about D&B's. Maybe the scale?
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PostNov 01, 2007#310

^^ Anyone in Illinois would go to a D&B downtown as opposed to the D&B by the EC Expressway.



edit; my part of Illinois, any way.
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PostNov 01, 2007#311

newstl2020 wrote:^ I would kill myself if they put a Dave and Busters in downtown. Talk about reverse suburbanism (Is that a real thing?)
There's a Jillian's in downtown Indy that's pretty popular... The key is to scale it appropriately per its urban locale. Here's the layout: http://www.jilliansbilliards.com/images ... t/indy.pdf. Bottom line, if they can right-size in downtown Indy, I'm sure they could do it here.



Can you imagine how popular this place would be before/after Cards games? Not to mention how fun it would be for dates and the like.
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PostNov 01, 2007#312

^ I was thinking of the Indy location when I mentioned Jillian's. That particular location is a great use of an older building, and it blends in just fine with its surroundings. And IIRC, there's still a Gameworks Studio on the fourth floor of the Circle Centre in downtown Indy.



These venues can be done in downtown venues without looking like warehouses. They're great for date night, family outings, parties, etc., and I think one of these (maybe a couple) would go over very well downtown.
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PostNov 02, 2007#313

Grover wrote:^ Why are we so focused on luring suburbanites downtown? Why wouldn't it be better for there to be retail that simply serves those who live and work downtown?


I'd like to see those who live throughout the entire City of St. Louis shopping downtown again, this would be a great start. I think theres a good number of people in "outer City" who would rather shop anywhere in the City than give tax dollars to Clayton (no offense Clayton).
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PostNov 02, 2007#314

Why would a business district just try to lure in people from one area? Maybe there are some people such as my self who lives and works in the county but enjoys being downtown. I would move there in a heart beat but I can't afford it right now. Its my goal to move there at some point I hope. Right I forget that I am a horrible person for living in the county. I guess I am still horrible even if I make it downtown as much as possible. I can't stand the hatred for people in the burbs. Is sprawl bad? Yes I think so but people have their reasons for living where they do. Whatever no matter what I say I will still be a bad person for living in Affton. Blah! Also I would love to work downtown but I still have yet to find a call center downtown. Most of those are based in the county. Anyway I don't see the harm in luring in people for downtown, the city, and the "horrible people from the burbs". I can't wait for MX to take shape and look forward to shopping there.
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PostNov 02, 2007#315

It's not a bad thing for people from wherever to shop downtown, but I don't think it makes sense as a business model to plan on attracting people from the more distant parts of the metro area. Exactly what are they going to offer than can't be found elsewhere. I love the energy of the city and shop in the city as much as possible. I'm simply challenging the notion that downtown will be/can be/should be a retail attraction for people beyond those who it is convenient for.
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PostNov 02, 2007#316

Afftonguy78 wrote:Why would a business district just try to lure in people from one area? Maybe there are some people such as my self who lives and works in the county but enjoys being downtown. I would move there in a heart beat but I can't afford it right now. Its my goal to move there at some point I hope. Right I forget that I am a horrible person for living in the county. I guess I am still horrible even if I make it downtown as much as possible. I can't stand the hatred for people in the burbs. Is sprawl bad? Yes I think so but people have their reasons for living where they do. Whatever no matter what I say I will still be a bad person for living in Affton. Blah! Also I would love to work downtown but I still have yet to find a call center downtown. Most of those are based in the county. Anyway I don't see the harm in luring in people for downtown, the city, and the "horrible people from the burbs". I can't wait for MX to take shape and look forward to shopping there.


Sometimes it's hard to tell around here, but not everyone on this forum has contempt for those that live in the suburbs. 8)



I do wish more suburbanites felt the way you do about shopping downtown though. Hopefully there are more out there than we realize, and they'll shop at MX.
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PostNov 02, 2007#317

Downtown should be and is inclusive of anyone who can live, shop and play together with others nicely. It's likely that downtown residents, businesspeople, and conventioners can support MX. But we'd all be fools not to welcome the MSA in with open arms. The more that experience our rebirth the better.
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PostNov 02, 2007#318

I had a long thing typed out about this but I deleted it. I don't feel like arguing. I am not in a good mood so maybe I am over reacting. My apologies. I love this city. In fact the apt complex I am in I thought it was the city as its on River Des Peres Blvd. That turned out not to be the cause but when I pull out of the entrance I am in the city. Its all good I love the city and proud to call STL home.



::back on topic:: Hey maybe I didn't look good enough but is there some like large scale renderings. I can't seem to find any. I want to look at pictures the whole area.
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PostNov 02, 2007#319

^ That was my point. Where one lives on either side of the River Des Peres and Skinker Boulevard shouldn't matter- and it doesn't matter- to reasonable people.
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PostNov 02, 2007#320

Yea I didn't see your post until I had posted mine. It is nice to see that there are reasonable people out there.



Also when does that horrible skybridge come down???
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PostNov 02, 2007#321

Afftonguy78 wrote:Also when does that horrible skybridge come down???


In the spring, supposedly.



We'll have an Urban St. Louis meetup when they start tearing it down. Actually, it will probably just be me, ThreeOneFour, a couple of lawn chairs and some Budweisers, but anyone else is free to come watch the demo as well!
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PostNov 02, 2007#322

I would love to see it come down in person. If I am not working that day I will most likely try and make it there.
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PostNov 02, 2007#323

DeBaliviere wrote:We'll have an Urban St. Louis meetup when they start tearing it down. Actually, it will probably just be me, ThreeOneFour, a couple of lawn chairs and some Budweisers, but anyone else is free to come watch the demo as well!


Sounds like a great plan to me! 8)
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PostNov 02, 2007#324

Count me in! I'll drive down from chitown!
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PostNov 02, 2007#325

haha if they're doing it on a weekend that I can get back from school, count me in as well. Nothing like a little early planning, right guys? As for my D&B remark, I would love one if it was set in a cool urban manner. UNFORTUNATELY, as this is an entirely new development being built from scratch, I feel as though it would end up very suburban if done in BPV. Just an incling. As for MX, great point above about the conventioners, tourists, etc. I really think they would be missing a HUGE amount of income if they didn't specifically try to cater to those in the counties by offering the really cool stores that people in stl are willing to drive to chicago to go to. I could care less who patronizes MX, as long as it thrives, but I think that they are smart enough to realize that they should really attempt to attract the 2.5 million in the metro area outside of the city (would be a slightly better business plan :D ).
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