urbanSTL

trent wrote:Seriously, I don't think DeB was trying to say that. I think he was saying that vollum was using the phrase 'that group' in a derogatory manner.

newstl2020 wrote:How about the first Polo Store in the midwest outside of Chicago. There is a prestige in shopping at THE POLO STORE as opposed to buying polo at macys, and like it or not this intrigues people and is a huge draw for most people. If this is done half-ass, it will never truly succeed.

DeBaliviere wrote:I think what I was trying to convey (and could have done a better job of doing) was that I'm a little disappointed to hear that Mercantile Exchange, which is being positioned as an upscale retail development, will have a component that caters to "sports fans." I think we have enough to cater to that demographic already. So, instead of an upscale clothing store, we'll get a store that sells Pujols jerseys or instead of a nice restaurant, we'll get Sammy Hagar's Cabo Wabo. Maybe I'm reading too much into that statement, but it reminds me of hearing about Macy's not stocking its St. Louis stores with its more stylish clothing lines because it thinks we're (collectively) out of touch when it comes to fashion.

newstl2020 wrote:That makes a bit more sense DeBal . IMO, and this is just mine, downtown retail and downtown as a whole isn't going to truly thrive unless you make the destinations *better* than those in the county. Ordinary retail will be able to exist, and most likely survive for sure as of this point. In order to truly thrive however, and change the perceptions about downtown, these destinations need to be bigger/badder/pimped to the extreme (if you will) in comparisson to other areas in the region. Teens and parents from the counties will WANT to come downtown to shop if there are two story apple stores with the 30 foot tall color changing apple on the front of the building, the nike towns, the 3 story abercombies, etc. (Newstl hates abercrombie and anything associated with it, fyi. Just making the statement.)



I know this will garner some flak from others on this forum, but it's the un-watered down truth. Consumerism and utter materialism and light and glitz is what attracts the majority of the public. Want to turn people on to downtown St. Louis? How about the first Polo Store in the midwest outside of Chicago. There is a prestige in shopping at THE POLO STORE as opposed to buying polo at macys, and like it or not this intrigues people and is a huge draw for most people. If this is done half-ass, it will never truly succeed.



I echo the signature of a member of this board, "mediocrity will never make St. louis a world-class city."



Editied - Because Reason isn't the same as Region .

bonwich wrote:And that's a risk for Mercantile Exchange and any downtown retail or entertainment.

bonwich wrote:Well, in all fairness, when St. Louis Centre first opened, it really wasn't just the same as the surburban malls. There were a whole bunch of one-of-a-kind-in-the-area stores (both there and in Union Station). The problem was that it was pretty easy for suburban malls to horn in on the action and reproduce anything that St. Louis Centre and Union Station had to offer, minus the parking fees. And that's a risk for Mercantile Exchange and any downtown retail or entertainment.

TO THEIR ultimate dismay, many American cities reshaped their downtowns by following a definition of ''mall'' that calls it ''a street for pedestrians only, with shops on each side.'' St. Louis goes by another definition of mall: ''a shaded walk or public promenade.'' To judge by the swelling number of plans for such malls here, St. Louis may have the better idea. The other type of mall was tried in downtowns from Norfolk and Memphis to Kalamazoo, Mich. ''But by and large, most are taking them out now,'' says Richard Bradley, president of the International Downtown Association, based in Washington. ''They did the malls in part because of an anti-car bias and a desire to create something comparable with suburban shopping malls. ''They did it - create attractive parks - but the retail usually died.'' Today, he says, cities are ''getting into broader concepts of 'streetscaping.' '' They are moving away from the notion of the pedestrian malls, with closed-off streets, and looking at some of the lessons that came out of the 1980s.'' What St. Louis planners are doing these days seems to fit in with those lessons. Over the summer months, the planners revised their thinking about the nearly completed Gateway Mall. They put forth a proposal for a Cupples Mall, along with other new ideas for pedestrian-related projects. Nobody mentioned closing streets. To help with the planning, the city has hired Environmental Planning and Design, a firm from Pittsburgh.fw Following is a summary of what is on the drawing boards: Completing the Gateway Mall. The mall has been built in pieces for decades, based on an old idea of a monumental, block-wide series of parks from the Gateway Arch westward to 21st Street between Market and Chestnut Streets. A group of civic and construction union leaders has been trying, for nearly eight years, to complete the mall, but with three blocks developed as a mixture of new buildings and open space. Now, city officials prefer to keep the blocks open, with no buildings, and are looking for ways to finance that approach. Redesigning the western stretch of the Gateway Mall between Tucker Boulevard and 21st Street near Union Station. Most people use a sidewalk on the south side of Market, rather than the mall, to walk between downtown and Union Station. Donald Royse, the city's urban design director, says the mall needs a new look to encourage people to walk through and use it. Building a Cupples Mall. This half-block-wide landscaped pathway would extend about 10 blocks northward from Ralston Purina at Gratiot Street, through the nearly vacant Cupples Station warehouses, to Southwestern Bell Telephone Co.'s tower. The goal is to get people walking through the Cupples Station warehouses (and thus help get the buildings redeveloped) and to link the Ralston complex with the rest of downtown. The north block in the Cupples mall is in the uncompleted part of the Gateway Mall. Building a pedestrian pathway between the Cervantes Convention Center and Laclede's Landing. A proposal for doing that is being designed by Skidmore, Owings & Merrill of Chicago, an architectural and planning firm, as part of a development plan for that area. Building a pedestrian pathway to link several downtown attractions between Union Station and Laclede's Landing. The pathway idea originated with city planners, who suggested it become part of the master landscape plan. The pathway would have wide sidewalks and landscaping along streets and possibly new lighting, street furniture and other amenities. The pathway would run from Union Station eastward along Clark Avenue past the back of Kiel Auditorium, and past sites proposed for a hockey arena and an equestrian center. It would continue past City Hall and Cupples Station to Busch Stadium. There it would go north along 8th Street through downtown to the new entrance under construction on Washington Avenue for the Cervantes Convention Center. It would then continue northward, on Seventh Street, to Convention Plaza, and eastward into Laclede's Landing. Royse and J. Christopher Grace, the city's top development official, say all the proposals are important to help boost growth and development. The malls and attractively landscaped pedestrian pathways would help tie together the scattered attractions downtown. They would encourage more people to stroll; that, in turn, would give downtown life and vitality and help attract office and housing development, they say. For the most part, the plans are getting good reviews. Among the supporters is Edward Ruesing, president of Downtown St. Louis Inc. Ruesing says both the Gateway and Cupples malls projects are ''economic development tools that would enhance the development potential of property bordering them.'' To back that up, he cites development along the south side of Market, overlooking the Gateway Mall. ''People who built there in the last 10 to 20 years did so with the expectation that they were building in a prestigious location, overlooking a major public space,'' he says. Ruesing says downtown has plenty of people who could use the malls and pathways on a daily basis. Among them: About 110,000 office workers. Roughly 5,000 permanent residents. A varying number of tourists, conventiongoers and other visitors, depending on the season. That last group is expected to increase after completion of the convention center expansion now under way and the stadium addition being planned. t da But not everyone is happy with what's on the drawing boards. Some say the pretty drawings and plans divert attention from what they say downtown really needs - housing, more development and more residents. Others charge that the city already has stacks of dusty plans and proposals for malls and tree-lined boulevards, some dating back to the early 1900s. The city lacked the money to carry them out, these critics say, and it lacks the money today. One critic is Carolyn Toft, executive director of the Landmarks Association of St. Louis Inc. ''I think that at the moment, a discussion of visionary malls is impractical and deflects the proper discussion of what is important to the rejuvenation of downtown,'' she says. ''What's important is housing. Until you get people living in downtown - people who cause it to become their neighborhood, and who are there on a 24-hour basis to support the retailers and the restaurants - you are not going to have a vibrant downtown, no matter what you do.''

P-D, 1982, excerpted wrote:Urban Identity To Distinguish St. Louis Centre

By Laszlo K. Domjan

Of the Post-Dispatch Staff



A varied combination of 200 retail establishments will give the $110 million St. Louis Centre downtown an urban identity distinguishing it from suburban shopping malls, the project's developers say.



The urban atmosphere will be reinforced by the design of the two- block, four-level mall, said Gregory R. Glass, president of May Centers Inc. May is developing the mall as a limited partner of Melvin Simon & Associates of Indianapolis, the project's general partner.



The enclosed mall will be bounded by Washington and Locust streets and by Sixth and Seventh streets. It will connect the Famous-Barr and Stix Baer & Fuller department stores, which -- in the style of suburban centers -- will be the anchors for the center.



From the outside, the mall will bear somewhat of a resemblance to a giant paddlewheeler.



'The architect obviously had the Arch and river in mind in designing the exterior facades, 'Glass said. 'The logo for the center will reflect this even more. It's very tasteful. '



The project has been in the making for almost 10 years. The way was cleared for work on the mall last week when developers signed an 81-page redevelopment agreement with the St. Louis Land Clearance for Redevelopment Authority. The agreement is part of a complicated, eight-tier financing arrangement.



(snip)





Glass said the developers were making initial contacts with potential tenants. He said he expected the 200 retail establishments in the mall to include the basic shopping-center stores selling shoes, clothing and other merchandise. But other retailers, he said, would offer specialized services and merchandise unlikely to be available in suburban centers.



'We'll bring in a broader mix of mall tenants than suburban malls, 'Glass said. 'People who walk in will immediately recognize that this is different.



'We're not talking about boutiques. We're hoping to bring in some of the better-known St. Louis restaurants to establish branches. We might have a gift shop selling merchandise available only in St. Louis, like St. Louis Zoo mementos, items related to the Cardinals and that sort of thing. '



(snip)



Glass walls will be prominent features of the complex. They will enable visitors to see downtown activity from inside the mall, Glass said.



'Ours is clearly an urban project as opposed to a suburban one, 'Glass said. 'Instead of the wide-open spaces of suburban centers, we'll have the taste and feel of a much closer environment.



'The feel of activity will be greater with four levels. A lot more will appear to be going on. It will appear more crowded. '



Herbert Simon, president of the Simon firm, said the developers hoped to attract to the center people from the suburbs as well as city residents, downtown workers and tourists.



'We will draw on the whole metropolitan area, 'Simon said. 'We have to offer the public as much diversity as the suburban centers and add some different touches.



'We'll offer reasons for suburban shoppers, office workers and conventiongoers to all shop there. It's in a strategic location with good access to highways. '



(snip)



Mayor Vincent C. Schoemehl Jr. said he was pleased to see that St. Louis Centre was finally getting under way. He said the project would reverse a trend of smaller retailers leaving downtown.



'It will be a tremendous boost to the city, 'Schoemehl said. 'Certain people will never come downtown. Other people will find in downtown a certain ambiance. We won't get all the people downtown, but we'll get some of them. '



W. Lynn Edwards III, Schoemehl's executive director of development, said the project would create 2,400 permanent jobs in retailing.



'Their economic impact is substantial, 'Edwards said.



(snip)



Financing for the St. Louis Centre includes $12 million in equity money from May, the Land Clearance for Redevelopment Authority and Simon; $18 million in federal Urban Development Action Grant funds for land purchase and acquisition; tax- exempt authority bonds bought by Boatmen's National Bank; a conventional mortgage to finance redevelopment of the Stix building; leasehold mortgage financing to cover tenant-finishing work; long-term mortgage money from Teachers Insurance & Annuity Association of New York; and an interim construction loan and authority bonds bought by Mercantile and Centerre Bank.



Simon said plans called for the top two floors of the Stix building, now housing the department store, to be converted into offices. He said those plans might be changed to use those two floors for a hotel instead.

'We're not talking about boutiques. We're hoping to bring in some of the better-known St. Louis restaurants to establish branches. We might have a gift shop selling merchandise available only in St. Louis, like St. Louis Zoo mementos, items related to the Cardinals and that sort of thing. '

'The feel of activity will be greater with four levels. A lot more will appear to be going on. It will appear more crowded. '