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His track record.Alex Ihnen wrote:^ Five years ago we were calling DeWitt/Cordish shrewd developers. What would make Kroenke any different?
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^ Would certainly rather have Kroenke in possession of the land than McKee. That said, the point is that no matter who it is, there are severe limitations for the space given the market and physical barriers.
My initial reaction is to avoid handing over another large plot of land to a developer who has not yet shown a forward-looking plan for an area which he's already trying to develop. That was the judge's initial reason for denying McKee's TIFs, right? That he hadn't presented an actionable plan? To my knowledge, he still hasn't, so why add additional space to the plot?
Everyone here knows about City to River, of course, and if it were to happen, the Bottle District would certainly be one of the leading properties for redevelopment as Broadway and Memorial is positioned to be a strong north-south boulevard -- for businesses, residences and more (see my pictures above for an idea of what could work).
And, honestly, I'm kind of hoping to see a William K. Busch brewery open up in the Bottle District. How's that for American spirit -- build up an empire, have it sold away by investors, and rather than sitting on your money, going back to work to do what your family built its name on and, as a final flourish, re-emerging as a successful business directly up the street from your new competitor.
Everyone here knows about City to River, of course, and if it were to happen, the Bottle District would certainly be one of the leading properties for redevelopment as Broadway and Memorial is positioned to be a strong north-south boulevard -- for businesses, residences and more (see my pictures above for an idea of what could work).
And, honestly, I'm kind of hoping to see a William K. Busch brewery open up in the Bottle District. How's that for American spirit -- build up an empire, have it sold away by investors, and rather than sitting on your money, going back to work to do what your family built its name on and, as a final flourish, re-emerging as a successful business directly up the street from your new competitor.
exactly.Kevin B wrote: And, honestly, I'm kind of hoping to see a William K. Busch brewery open up in the Bottle District. How's that for American spirit -- build up an empire, have it sold away by investors, and rather than sitting on your money, going back to work to do what your family built its name on and, as a final flourish, re-emerging as a successful business directly up the street from your new competitor.
I wonder if their is any serious discussion on development between McKee and THF (Kroenke's development company)? Alex, I think you noted earlier that their was some rumor that McKee was looking at bringing in Walmart's Marketplace format for part of his North side Development.Alex Ihnen wrote:^ Would certainly rather have Kroenke in possession of the land than McKee. That said, the point is that no matter who it is, there are severe limitations for the space given the market and physical barriers.
Another angle worth thinking about but unlikely or maybe far fetched, what will happen when the Rams lease expires? I don't think their is any money on the local or state level. However, tax credits come to mind
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Any more site plans? The link to the siteplan on the story is already dead...
http://www.stltoday.com/business/column ... mode=story
http://www.stltoday.com/business/column ... mode=story
It would be nice to see some hard plans, no reason not now that we has the land and the credits.Alex Ihnen wrote:And yet we don't really know what McKee's project is...
My favorite comment from the article is a comment about construction starting next summer.beer city wrote:It would be nice to see some hard plans, no reason not now that we has the land and the credits.Alex Ihnen wrote:And yet we don't really know what McKee's project is...
I guess will see what gets built first, DeWitt's themed restaraunt or a box store by McKee considering that it is pretty is to put together a site plan and drwaings on short notice.
St. Louis issues tax deals for developers before the plans are made public. What is wrong with this city!
Every tax deal should require detailed site plans, elevations, and three dimensional renderings. They should go through planning and urban design before being sent to council. This way we can be sure aldermen, who are not professionals in development, planning, or architecture, have the correct information to evaluate them properly.
They should be vetted by someone who knows about finance, not simply a developer telling the alderman I need this or the bank wont make it happen.
This is why we have city staff: to provide elected officials with objective, professional information so projects can be evaluated with the public interest in mind.
Lewis Reed was on KWMU talking about this project and he had no details except that it wouldn't have happened without the TIF. WHAT would have happened without the TIF and how can anyone apply the but for test to McKee when he hasn't built anything!
Tear down the damn highway already and maybe this project would happen -- perhaps without this criminal. Hell, the press might bring in some outside capital and innovators to St. Louis.
Every tax deal should require detailed site plans, elevations, and three dimensional renderings. They should go through planning and urban design before being sent to council. This way we can be sure aldermen, who are not professionals in development, planning, or architecture, have the correct information to evaluate them properly.
They should be vetted by someone who knows about finance, not simply a developer telling the alderman I need this or the bank wont make it happen.
This is why we have city staff: to provide elected officials with objective, professional information so projects can be evaluated with the public interest in mind.
Lewis Reed was on KWMU talking about this project and he had no details except that it wouldn't have happened without the TIF. WHAT would have happened without the TIF and how can anyone apply the but for test to McKee when he hasn't built anything!
Tear down the damn highway already and maybe this project would happen -- perhaps without this criminal. Hell, the press might bring in some outside capital and innovators to St. Louis.
We'll have to see what happens here. Personally, I can't believe that with all the scrutiny and outcry over development that the Board of Aldermen has witnessed recently, that they'd so cavalierly issue this approval to McKee.
A lot could be done with the Bottle District -- 40-story residential, 10-story office, flats, apartments, street-retail, maybe even an urban-designed Target (with buried parking) near Cass or new business in the O'Fallon warehouses (William K. Busch, maybe?!). The problem here is that whatever is done cannot be done to its fullest potential as long as I-70 continues to exist just east.
I wrote some gut-shot thoughts about it on YASTLBlog. The link's in my signature.
A lot could be done with the Bottle District -- 40-story residential, 10-story office, flats, apartments, street-retail, maybe even an urban-designed Target (with buried parking) near Cass or new business in the O'Fallon warehouses (William K. Busch, maybe?!). The problem here is that whatever is done cannot be done to its fullest potential as long as I-70 continues to exist just east.
I wrote some gut-shot thoughts about it on YASTLBlog. The link's in my signature.
New residential and business development could soon be coming to downtown St. Louis
(KMOV)- A new residential and business development could be coming to downtown St. Louis.
The St. Louis board of Alderman approved the $190 million project at the vacant “bottle district”. The area is north of the Edward Jones Dome.
The development has been talked about since 2004 and it calls for office towers, condos, stores and restaurants.
There are critics who oppose $50 million in tax incentives and some skeptics don’t think the developers can pull it off.
link: http://www.kmov.com/news/local/Downtown ... 00973.html
(KMOV)- A new residential and business development could be coming to downtown St. Louis.
The St. Louis board of Alderman approved the $190 million project at the vacant “bottle district”. The area is north of the Edward Jones Dome.
The development has been talked about since 2004 and it calls for office towers, condos, stores and restaurants.
There are critics who oppose $50 million in tax incentives and some skeptics don’t think the developers can pull it off.
link: http://www.kmov.com/news/local/Downtown ... 00973.html
Some very early renderings near the end of the video. Looks like there are plans for hi rises, but I need to see a more detailed plan to truly know.
^Out of curiosity, are they required to show the public renderings? Or once these projects are approved, they are free to do whatever the hell they want?
Anyone know?
Anyone know?
goat314 wrote:Some very early renderings near the end of the video. Looks like there are plans for hi rises, but I need to see a more detailed plan to truly know.
Yeah, as an early design, it looks pretty solid. Very similar to what my ideas were on my post actually -- though the Clayco plans have flipped the highrises over to the western side of 6th street (which I'm happy to see they plan on reopening!) They include the existing warehouses to the north too.
My preference, of course, would be to have the highrises on the leading edge between 6th and a new Broadway/Memorial Blvd with the elevations sloping down as you head west into the neighborhood. The space between 6th and 7th should be built densely with a series of close-set 6 to 10-story office buildings and 3 to 5-story flats and apartments.
I'm also curious about that little boomerang-shaped building near the Edward Jones Dome. I don't know what it would be -- presumably some sort of sports bar on the lower level. It's a quirky, little piece isn't it?
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Looks like this maybe some of the other renderings:
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=st.+loui ... 29,r:2,s:0
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=st.+loui ... 29,r:1,s:0
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=st.+loui ... 9&hovw=299
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=st.+loui ... 29,r:2,s:0
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=st.+loui ... 29,r:1,s:0
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=st.+loui ... 9&hovw=299
Convention Center, Dome Expansion Into Bottle District Proposed
Michael Calhoun
December 23, 2011 1:22 AM
ST. LOUIS (KMOX) – To keep the Rams, regional leaders are gearing up to make major changes to the Edward Jones Dome and Frank de Graaf wonders — why not include the convention center and Bottle District?
“We need to do something bold once in awhile,” the downtown resident and blogger thinks.
And so De Graaf wrote an essay called “A Bold Vision for the Bottle District,” advocating for a 300,000 square foot expansion of America’s Center. He believes a total square footage of one million, along with a shiny new building, would catapult St. Louis from bland mid-size to the bold talk of the convention industry.
link: http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2011/12/23/ ... -district/
plus audio
Michael Calhoun
December 23, 2011 1:22 AM
ST. LOUIS (KMOX) – To keep the Rams, regional leaders are gearing up to make major changes to the Edward Jones Dome and Frank de Graaf wonders — why not include the convention center and Bottle District?
“We need to do something bold once in awhile,” the downtown resident and blogger thinks.
And so De Graaf wrote an essay called “A Bold Vision for the Bottle District,” advocating for a 300,000 square foot expansion of America’s Center. He believes a total square footage of one million, along with a shiny new building, would catapult St. Louis from bland mid-size to the bold talk of the convention industry.
link: http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2011/12/23/ ... -district/
plus audio
^the idea makes a lot of sense...I mean land locked and often 105 degree Atlanta is a sought after convention destination...
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^It's true that there's no inherent reason some cities get the largest conventions while others do not. Most convention goes want to walk to restaurants, a movie, a casino and maybe another attraction (Busch Stadium, the Arch, City Garden...). St. Louis could be that location.
One million total square feet would not "catapult" us to being the "talk of the convention industry," but I think it would help us compete with much more success.
If you have never been to McCormick Place in Chicago, it is worth the trip just to see it. I am amazed at the scale of the structure every time. Over 2.5 million square feet with a 800 room hotel attached, but it is a huge barrier. Not much within walking distance. I think we could do something of the same quality in a smaller scale and it could push more development to the north, and the location of America's center is within walking distance of everything downtown. Include a hotel/residence at the north end, and create more foot traffic up north.
The only question I have is if it would be worth the money to expand in this location if the highway is still elevated. Not much room for future expansion here with a neighborhood directly to the east.
If you have never been to McCormick Place in Chicago, it is worth the trip just to see it. I am amazed at the scale of the structure every time. Over 2.5 million square feet with a 800 room hotel attached, but it is a huge barrier. Not much within walking distance. I think we could do something of the same quality in a smaller scale and it could push more development to the north, and the location of America's center is within walking distance of everything downtown. Include a hotel/residence at the north end, and create more foot traffic up north.
The only question I have is if it would be worth the money to expand in this location if the highway is still elevated. Not much room for future expansion here with a neighborhood directly to the east.
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I think the expansion of the convention center is a good idea. However, Paul McKee already has plans for the site and is preparing it for development. So I just don't see how the convention center idea can become a reality.
^ You're probably right, Joe.
However, Mckee has owned a lot of land and has had big ideas for North St. Louis for quite a while now. He's pretty good at collecting tax incentives but have you seen any of his plans come to fruition?
Now the Board of Alderman basically handed him another (prime) location without him having to show real concrete plans or time lines. The renderings you posted earlier in the thread are more than six years old from when the developer from North Carolina was still involved.
I guarantee you, it's going to be nothing like this.
This is from the Business Journal (December 9, 2011):
Larry Chapman, the partner in charge of the project for Clayco, said he has scaled back the project to reflect the realities of today’s market. Instead of office towers and condominiums, Chapman said the plan now calls for low-rise buildings, with the possibility of mid-rise towers if he is able to attract a corporate tenant.
“All the other plans were way too ambitious,” he said.
The goal now, he said, is to come up with a development with asking rents of mid to upper teens per square foot, instead of upper 20s, and then build around that, instead of developing a plan and figuring what to charge for rent afterward. Chapman said the last time he had to reverse engineer rents this way was during the market downturn in the 1980s.
“It’s the same conditions as 20 years ago, only worse,” he said.
Chapman wouldn’t disclose any potential tenants but said he would target small businesses that want to be in the city and retailers that want street-level storefronts.
Chapman wants the development to attract people going to nearby Lumiere Place casino as well as families attending Rams games at the Edward Jones Dome. The latter goal, however, raises questions about viability since the long-delayed, $95 million Ballpark Village near Busch Stadium is in part based on the premise that it will attract baseball fans and the Cardinals are a much more successful sports team than the Rams.
This is laughable. Perhaps the last paragraph shows the complete madness of this plan best.
Do you really think that people are going to live or recreate there so they can be close to the casino or visit a Rams game. With only 10 home games a year (including the pre-season) what will they do the other 355 days: live or congregate in the shade of a hulking dome, right next to an elevated highway?
That's why I wrote my piece: We're giving away prime real estate to people that have no plans (vague and terrible plans at best). I understand that my convention center/dome plan is a long shot but I still believe this site is perfectly suited for it. I'd rather have this site sit empty a few years longer to keep the chance of something like this happening when the economy turns around.
Finally, if we agree to spend $600 Million on the renovation of the Arch Grounds (a park), than we could agree to spend that kind of money on a state-of-the-art convention center.
Which do you think would generate more revenue and jobs for the city of St. Louis?
However, Mckee has owned a lot of land and has had big ideas for North St. Louis for quite a while now. He's pretty good at collecting tax incentives but have you seen any of his plans come to fruition?
Now the Board of Alderman basically handed him another (prime) location without him having to show real concrete plans or time lines. The renderings you posted earlier in the thread are more than six years old from when the developer from North Carolina was still involved.
I guarantee you, it's going to be nothing like this.
This is from the Business Journal (December 9, 2011):
Larry Chapman, the partner in charge of the project for Clayco, said he has scaled back the project to reflect the realities of today’s market. Instead of office towers and condominiums, Chapman said the plan now calls for low-rise buildings, with the possibility of mid-rise towers if he is able to attract a corporate tenant.
“All the other plans were way too ambitious,” he said.
The goal now, he said, is to come up with a development with asking rents of mid to upper teens per square foot, instead of upper 20s, and then build around that, instead of developing a plan and figuring what to charge for rent afterward. Chapman said the last time he had to reverse engineer rents this way was during the market downturn in the 1980s.
“It’s the same conditions as 20 years ago, only worse,” he said.
Chapman wouldn’t disclose any potential tenants but said he would target small businesses that want to be in the city and retailers that want street-level storefronts.
Chapman wants the development to attract people going to nearby Lumiere Place casino as well as families attending Rams games at the Edward Jones Dome. The latter goal, however, raises questions about viability since the long-delayed, $95 million Ballpark Village near Busch Stadium is in part based on the premise that it will attract baseball fans and the Cardinals are a much more successful sports team than the Rams.
This is laughable. Perhaps the last paragraph shows the complete madness of this plan best.
Do you really think that people are going to live or recreate there so they can be close to the casino or visit a Rams game. With only 10 home games a year (including the pre-season) what will they do the other 355 days: live or congregate in the shade of a hulking dome, right next to an elevated highway?
That's why I wrote my piece: We're giving away prime real estate to people that have no plans (vague and terrible plans at best). I understand that my convention center/dome plan is a long shot but I still believe this site is perfectly suited for it. I'd rather have this site sit empty a few years longer to keep the chance of something like this happening when the economy turns around.
Finally, if we agree to spend $600 Million on the renovation of the Arch Grounds (a park), than we could agree to spend that kind of money on a state-of-the-art convention center.
Which do you think would generate more revenue and jobs for the city of St. Louis?