urbanSTL

JimJim15 wrote:the 9th floor where a Bob-Cat had just demolished everything in sight.

Err, yikes! I hope it was the smallest Bobcat available (and even that is probably too heavy). This is an office building we are talking about, not a warehouse. I hope the demo contractor realizes that, but probably not.

jlblues wrote:

JimJim15 wrote:the 9th floor where a Bob-Cat had just demolished everything in sight.

Err, yikes! I hope it was the smallest Bobcat available (and even that is probably too heavy). This is an office building we are talking about, not a warehouse. I hope the demo contractor realizes that, but probably not.

Yeah, he's probably never done this before.

JimJim,



So, did you see the lower floors where the apartments will be located? And, if you did, were they any further along in the construction process on those lower floors? Our reservation is on the 9th floor. My understanding is that the 9th floor will be the first condos to close/move in. And, then 10th will close/move in about 45 days later. Then 11th 45 days after that and so on. This makes for a condo move in process that goes on for almost a year. Any clarification would be appreciated.

I didn't get to go onto any lower floors, but I'm not sure they've been cleared out completely, either. Don't quote me on that though.



The reason I don't think they've been cleared is that the foreman (who had a hard hat in the shape of a cowboy hat) told me that they were still clearing out the elevator shaft. They hadn't cleaned up the 9th floor because they needed a clear path to push all the debris down the shaft. I'm not sure if the lower floors could be cleared out in a different way, but if they need the shaft, the lower floors won't be any further ahead.



But again, I'm not sure. I could be wrong.

jlblues wrote:Err, yikes! I hope it was the smallest Bobcat available (and even that is probably too heavy). This is an office building we are talking about, not a warehouse. I hope the demo contractor realizes that, but probably not.

Pretty standard procedure for demo. You should be able to take a T-300 (largest available, 3000 lb capacity, tracked for low ground compression, more likely to use a wheeled version which would exert more ground pressure) in there with no trouble at all. Some desks have more weight than that Bobcat would.



Like Scrutinizer said, the contractor probably has some pretty extensive experience.

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:Yeah, he's probably never done this before.

Well, unfortunately, you are correct, in that too many developers and GCs only look at experience in selecting a demo contractor. However, I can assure you that I have met many very experienced demo contractors whom I consider very lucky to be alive; or at least their near-minimum-wage employees are. It is also ironic that we are having this discussion considering that there was - allegedly - a major demolition error in this very same building some years ago when they attempted to convert some floors to parking.



I have seen quite a few projects on which demo guys have done damage that is several multiples of the value of their contract, and others where they have very nearly brought 10+ story buildings down on top of themselves, yet these same contractors keep getting work, for reasons which I won't go into here. In any case, the only reason these people are alive is because of building code safety factors. And it is mostly because of idiots like these that those safety factors are so much higher than they need to be, which costs us all alot of $$$.



Laborer - "Er, boss, maybe we shouldn't drive this heavy piece of equipment on a floor designed for 50 pounds per square foot. Maybe we should ask the developer?" Contractor - "Heck no! We gotsa deadline! Drive 'er on up there, if it don't fall through the floor, its allright. Get 'er done!

MattnSTL wrote:Pretty standard procedure for demo. You should be able to take a T-300 (largest available, 3000 lb capacity, tracked for low ground compression, more likely to use a wheeled version which would exert more ground pressure) in there with no trouble at all. Some desks have more weight than that Bobcat would.

ROFL...assuming that in the last sentence you are referring to the T-300 you mentioned. I am just trying to imagine a desk that weighs 5 tons. Anyway, I just pray that you are not in a position to make such decisions, but, if you are, I hope you stay away from any building I own, or visit for that matter.

jlblues wrote:ROFL...assuming that in the last sentence you are referring to the T-300 you mentioned. I am just trying to imagine a desk that weighs 5 tons. Anyway, I just pray that you are not in a position to make such decisions, but, if you are, I hope you at least stay away from any building I own, or visit for that matter.

I was exagerating a little by saying they would use the biggest model available and that a desk would actually weigh 9600 lbs, but a bobcat really is standard operating procedure. The s-205's that where driving in Busch have a weight of 6655 lbs, and the floors there were not any thicker. The masonry walls being pulled down regardless of whether you use a Bobcat are going to create more shock on the floor than any Bobcat.



But just think of all the junk people have in some offices, these floors aren't built to just hold people and a water cooler.

Why do you continue to argue about something you obviously know little about?

MattnSTL wrote:The s-205's that where driving in Busch have a weight of 6655 lbs, and the floors there were not any thicker.

There are too many things wrong with this statement to list, but the first and foremost of these is that you are comparing the structure of a 40 year old stadium to that of a nearly 100 year old office building.

MattnSTL wrote:The masonry walls being pulled down regardless of whether you use a Bobcat are going to create more shock on the floor than any Bobcat.

Not true unless it is a very tall wall, but in any case, there are procedures for demolishing said walls, and removal of debris. Just because most demo contractors ignore those procedures does not mean they are not extremely important.

MattnSTL wrote:But just think of all the junk people have in some offices, these floors aren't built to just hold people and a water cooler.

No, they aren't designed to hold people and water coolers at all. They ARE designed to hold 50 pounds per square foot of live load - load in addition to the weight of the floor and finishes - which is much less than the live load of the warehouses in which these guys are used to working. By code, you cannot place any load on any section of floor, which exceeds that section of floor's live load capacity, unless that specific section of floor has been analyzed or tested, or unless it has been shored.

^I really don't care. It obviously worked out just fine for them, so what are we even arguing about.

I do not know where all this animosity is coming from, but I am interested in the building's integrity post the demo and rebuild. Can someone talk about that? Or keep at each other..that is fun as well



I was also a little concerned with the lower ceilings, but I currently have 9' throughout my current single family and it is sufficient. I think many argue that these condos are a more upscale and finished product because they do not have the exposed brick etc. Guess it just depends on your personal preference.



All in all, the building concept, location, floor plans, etc trump the best Washington Ave has to offer 9' or not. That being said the standards are nice, but would like to see things like washer/dryer and Refrigerator included. Other that that no gripes here to date.



Also would like to know more about the ADUS, apartments, artist lofts or whatever they are being called. Anyone know about that? I had originally heard the lower levels would be artist lofts (promoting artist workspace and living) and that their artwork would be displayed throughout building, etc....anyone know if this concept is now ADU?



Thanks for your insights. Just glad to see someone on here.

ToastedRavioli&Marina wrote:I am interested in the building's integrity post the demo and rebuild.

Well, then you should be interested in the demo process as well, unless you are not interested in damaged connections, strained structural members, etc. I am not saying there is anything to be alarmed about; it is possible, albeit highly unlikely, they did their homework. But if I had seen this (even a small Bobcat driving on the building floors), I would have reported it to the developer, and if he knew about it and didn't care, then to the city.

ToastedRavioli&Marina wrote:Or keep at each other..that is fun as well

Glad to see someone gets something out of these pointless arguments.

jlblues wrote:Anyway, back on topic.



Just wondering how much many of you downtown dwelling purchasers considered the lower ceiling heights of a former office building like the Syndicate Trust versus most of the Washington Avenue warehouse buildings. There were several comments about how cheap this building was on a per square foot basis, but few mentioned the lower ceiling heights. It seems as though it depends on the individual; some would be willing to pay just as much for a unit with 9' ceilings as one with 12' ceilings, all other things being equal. Others would pay much less.

9' ceilings don't really bother me as 9' is still a pretty good clearance. Some of the Wash. Ave. lofts only have 10' ceilings and with the exposed ductwork, now you're talking 9' in some areas so no difference. One thing with 9' ceilings is that the spaces should be easier to heat and cool than a space with taller ceilings.

^Personally, I prefer higher ceilings, and would be willing to pay more, particularly in a smaller unit. I think it makes a home feel much larger. If you have seen the units in the Merchandise Mart or Cupples Station, for example, some of them are very small, like under 750 sf, but have very high (some 16 feet or so) ceilings. And, obviously, with high ceilings you usually also get larger windows and more light. When those get converted to condos, I am sure they will fetch a much higher price than something similar with 9 foot ceilings. Hell, you could build a loft in that and increase the size of the unit 50% or more.



Yes, it would increase the cost of heating/cooling, but I don't think it would be that big of an increase, particularly in a large building with other units to insulate yours, and I think it is worth it. Just MHO.

My preference is for ceiling heights in the 9 to 10 foot range. Going down to eight feet makes a place/space look to small. When you go up to 12, 14, 16 feet you do get some more sense of space, which is nice. But I think you also end up with some issues regarding heating/cooling costs, eveness of temperatures, and maintenance/cleaning/painting that in my opinion offset the added sense of space. It is a personal thing. But then, I'm 57 and maybe the extra effort required take care of a place with higher ceilings does not seem so daunting to younger folks.

I prefer 9 to 10 feet also. I have super high ceilings in my bedroom now and I am tired of cranking the AC to keep the room comfortable. The living room, dining room, kitchen, family room, have 9 feet ceilings and I have no problem keeping them cool and warm. And 9 feet is tall enough to look nice, especially with good crown mouldings. Also, I can reach the 9 feet ceilings with a ladder to handle minor maintenance issues. In the bedroom, which is nearly two stories tall because there are cathedral ceilings instead of an attic, I have to hire people to take care of maintenance issues, such as painting, cleaning the sky light, etc. Because of the high ceilings, my master bedroom is a dramatic room that impresses everyone that sees it. But, my next house won't have that feature.



Don't get me wrong, I think the high ceilings are beautiful, and especially handsome in lofts. But, my next place will probably be a condo with normal ceilings. I think there is a market for both in any price range.

vollum wrote:When you go up to 12, 14, 16 feet you do get some more sense of space, which is nice. But I think you also end up with some issues regarding heating/cooling costs, eveness of temperatures, and maintenance/cleaning/painting that in my opinion offset the added sense of space.

Maybe I'm just one of the "younger folks", but my 12' ceilings have not been a problem at all. It's key, though, that I have a very open floorplan and a ceiling fan on at all times. (Point of reference: I keep 1800 sqft quite cold and use a lot of electricity-consuming toys, but my Ameren bill is still less than $125 during this heat. And heating in winter is quite cheap, since my downstairs neighbor doesn't use a fan.)



Expat: ladders come in taller sizes, too.

Phobia, ladders come taller, but I don't have the nerve to climb them .



I didn't mean that high ceilings are bad, but just trying to explain the different schools of thought. In other words, there is a market for multiple styles of condos. None of them are wrong. Some prefer the look and convenience of a traditional style unit with normal ceiling heights. Some people prefer the good looks and illusion of more space that super high ceilings bring. Nobody is wrong and there is a market for both.

For those of you who were unable to attend the Syndicate tours this morning here are a few photos. There will be another opportunity for buyers to view the inside, I believe August 19th.



They took us up to the 9th floor which is the floor where the for sale condos start. The views from up there are pretty cool but my shots didn't really capture the true feeling you get while up there. And I'm sure it just gets better the higher up you go.



All of the scenic shots you see were shot out of the future windows of unit 903. It's a northwest corner unit.



The last couple of photos show you where the lightwell begins. The open area there will be one of the building's community patio areas only it will be larger than what you are currently seeing. That smaller enclosed area that you see on the patio will have its rooftop converted into two private patios (divided down the middle by some type of privacy wall) for units 1001 and 1012.



Everything in there is still very very raw at the moment, but was cool to get a chance to at least get up in the building and peer out some of the windows. Thanks Loftworks!

A big thanks for the photos irock. I notice the first column away from the corner juts out into the living space about as far as the second column. It looks like it is falsework. The third column appears to have a large vent/waste pipe in front of it which I imagine would be boxed in with falsework if it remained. On the floorplan, these areas appear to be flush with the wall. I'm wondering whether these jut outs are going to remain.

Hello all!

My wife and I are St. Louisan's born and raised. We have been following the revitalization of downtown for some time now, particularly the loft/condo developements because we are considering the move to DT Stl from our home in the burbs. During our quest for news and updates we came across this forum. What a goldmine of information, thank you urbanstlouis!



We too were invited to the Syndicate buck hoist tour last Saturday and I posted some pictures below. I second your thank you irocktheparty2000 to the Loftworks team!



The first four pictures were taken looking out from the west and south corner windows of unit 909. Which along with the pictures from unit 903 that irocktheparty2000 posted give you some idea of how awesome the views from this building will be.



I took the next four pics while I was standing in the same spot, first pic facing the south, then the next two as I turned to the east, the last facing the north.



vollum, the last two pics may help with your question about the columns.

vollum wrote:A big thanks for the photos irock. I notice the first column away from the corner juts out into the living space about as far as the second column. It looks like it is falsework. The third column appears to have a large vent/waste pipe in front of it which I imagine would be boxed in with falsework if it remained. On the floorplan, these areas appear to be flush with the wall. I'm wondering whether these jut outs are going to remain.

The first and third "columns" you mentioned are both pipes (note the beams framing into the second and fourth "jut outs", those are columns). I am quite sure the pipes will be removed. At the same time, just because something is/isn't shown on the unit layouts/floorplans does not mean a whole lot, as these are generally put together very early in the project, by people that have no clue what is going on inside the building, and they are not updated to reflect things discovered during demolition/changes made during construction.



So, in other words, if it is important to you, ask the developer.

I checked with Loftworks. The pipes/boxing around them will be removed. The space will look like it is depicted in the floorplan.

Thanks for the pics! We will be taking our tour next weekend (the second group going in) and seeing all the pictures was fun! We'll be in the tenth floor in unit 1010 so hello to all of our future neighbors! We are very excited!