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PostNov 24, 2009#126

Innov8ion I completely agree with you on requiring registration and taking away the anonymity of these commenters.



But I think you are overdramatizing this a wee bit.



I doubt Joseph Pulitzer is rotating 6 feet under because a (stupid) "common man" got fired.



This guy was an idiot! Posting stuff like that from his work computer, at a school no less. And reposting it after it was removed. What was he thinking?



Sorry, he gets no sympathy from me.



Don't get me wrong, I am disturbed by the passive-aggressive nature of Greenbaum and the moderators at STLToday. I think they picked this offense to enforce because it was an obscenity that had no religious or political overtones. Had they picked one of the racial comments to flex their muscle on the neo-Nazis who are too cowardly to put on a hood and march under the Arch but have no problem making these hateful comments anonymously would scream they are being targeted by a "liberal rag" and claim censorship (of course they don't understand what that word means, but that's true of most words two or more syllables).
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PostNov 24, 2009#127

southsidepride wrote:But I think you are overdramatizing this a wee bit.



I doubt Joseph Pulitzer is rotating 6 feet under because a (stupid) "common man" got fired.
Everybody does stupid things, especially in an environment in which an agent claims not to give out identifying info to third parties in its privacy policy. Who the hell knows what the fine print legal mumbo jumbo after that statement meant. For professional news organizations, it means that the identifying info would only be disseminated in case of a court order. But the Post-Dispatch has drawn a clear line in the sand as if to declare, "We're not a professional news organization!"



It would have been perfectly legitimate had the school first detected the comments and dealt with the situation. But it ain't the job of the Post-Dispatch to serve as morality crusaders. Because, you know, snitches get stitches...



It's only my opinion that Pulitzer would roll over in his grave. Why? Pulitzer was a populist. And the prevailing sentiment is that Greenbaum and the Post-Dispatch screwed up royally.



Glad you see value in the other thoughts.
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PostNov 24, 2009#128

southsidepride wrote:Innov8ion I completely agree with you on requiring registration and taking away the anonymity of these commenters.



But I think you are overdramatizing this a wee bit.



I doubt Joseph Pulitzer is rotating 6 feet under because a (stupid) "common man" got fired.



This guy was an idiot! Posting stuff like that from his work computer, at a school no less. And reposting it after it was removed. What was he thinking?



Sorry, he gets no sympathy from me.



Don't get me wrong, I am disturbed by the passive-aggressive nature of Greenbaum and the moderators at STLToday. I think they picked this offense to enforce because it was an obscenity that had no religious or political overtones. Had they picked one of the racial comments to flex their muscle on the neo-Nazis who are too cowardly to put on a hood and march under the Arch but have no problem making these hateful comments anonymously would scream they are being targeted by a "liberal rag" and claim censorship (of course they don't understand what that word means, but that's true of most words two or more syllables).


See, here's the thing...it doesn't matter who they went after. It's the fact that they went after someone, especially in these times when net neutrality/censorship/privacy is such a big issue on the internet.



Like I said before, I don't think the PD and/or Kurt knew what they were really doing. I'm sure they thought they were trying to wrangle in their message board, but in reality most will look at it as a shot across the bow in the ongoing war of the censorship/privacy of the internet.



If Anon and /b/ get involved, it could cost the PD a lot more than an apology and Kurt's salary.
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PostNov 24, 2009#129

Grover wrote:Hate others? Wish to discriminate? No problem. Say pu&&y? You might lose your job.


That's what I still cannot get past. The constant stream of offensive comments following stories and opinion pieces on STLtoday.com was bad enough. The egregious double standard that resulted from Kurt Greenbaum's overreaction to this particular situation is appalling and inexcusable.



I suppose the powers-that-be at the Post-Dispatch believe to alter the comments section now would be to admit wrongdoing in this situation. I think better moderation would be the most ideal solution, but since the P-D seems indifferent to the hatred and ignorance that clog its website, the only reasonable solution I see is to insist that they eliminate the comments section altogether. I won't get my hopes up- apparently they don't care that the comments section and the way in which they handled this situation are embarrassments to St. Louis- not as long as their website generates the hits.
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PostNov 24, 2009#130

ThreeOneFour wrote:
Grover wrote:Hate others? Wish to discriminate? No problem. Say pu&&y? You might lose your job.
I suppose the powers-that-be at the Post-Dispatch believe to alter the comments section now would be to admit wrongdoing in this situation. I think better moderation would be the most ideal solution, but since the P-D seems indifferent to the hatred and ignorance that clog its website, the only reasonable solution I see is to insist that they eliminate the comments section altogether.
Do you think they give a damn about what we think? They couldn't care less. But what they do care about is the bottom line. Which is why it looks like an organized boycott of the Post-Dispatch and its advertisers is in order. We tried to motivate them with carrots. Now is the time for sticks...



How will justice be handed down? Will it come from the courts? Will it come from Anon and /b/? Will it come from an organized boycott? A combination? One way or another, there will be justice.



Accountability is a "female dog."
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PostNov 24, 2009#131

^ Nope, they don't care. If they did, they would have eliminated comments like the majority of their readers voted.
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PostNov 25, 2009#132

innov8ion wrote:Do you think they give a damn about what we think? They couldn't care less. But what they do care about is the bottom line. Which is why it looks like an organized boycott of the Post-Dispatch and its advertisers is in order. We tried to motivate them with carrots. Now is the time for sticks...


I agree. They couldn't care less, as they are obviously motivated by website traffic, and they must be convinced that the comment section helps to drive that traffic, at least to some extent.



Since the carrots didn't work, as you said, it is time for the sticks. Where do we go from here?
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PostNov 25, 2009#133

Frustrating that the PD allows posts like this to be the feature comment front and center on the stltoday.com site.



Featured Comment

Mr. Slay, we are rated the second worst city to live in due to crime. Start with fixing that first and let the courts do what they do with the DWIs.





Not only in that 2nd in crime rating completely bogus, but they manage to publish a comment like this that links to story about Mayor Slay getting tough on DWI arrests. GET RID OF THE COMMENTS
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PostNov 26, 2009#134

Ugh. On Thanksgiving, I am NOT thankful for STLToday.com commenters.



From an article about the downtown gift card program...


USA-GreatestCountryonEarth November 26, 2009 6:36AM CST

Does it provide for your own armed escort while you shop? How about a sight-seeing gift card to the crime ravaged neighborhoods in your own armored personnel carrier?

AnnieP November 26, 2009 7:10AM CST

Awww no THANKS. Where would I safely carry my money my VISA and my purchases in downtown St Louis? Up my rear and around the corner? Might as well put a sign on my back: female and shopping in downtown St Louis: come and get me.Actually was reading where a thug got a lady at high noon So County Shopping Ctr on Lindbergh outside of JC Penney, yesterday. Being gone from St Louis Louis for decades, but visiting for Bird Day, I pose a question to my fellow former St Louisians: does "Downtown" now extend as far south as Lindbergh, as far west as St Louis Hills and Kirkwood and as far east as Sauget? We all already know how far north "downtown" extends: all the way to Olive St Road!...


Ugh.
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PostNov 26, 2009#135

^ I got on here JUST to copy/paste those comments, when I should be loading up the car to head home.



We have GOT to do something.



Protest outside their office? I'm in.

Bomb them on Twitter with DM's and @s? I'm in



Let's do something.
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PostNov 27, 2009#136

JuiceInDogtown wrote:^

Let's do something.


I'm down, it's sickening how the Post Dispatch allows this nonsense. This is one of the major down sides of the internet generation. This has totally and completely cheapened "journalism" and made the post dispatch hated by many.
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PostNov 27, 2009#137

Quite frankly I think we need to do something to grab the attention of other media outlets, like Fox 2, Newschannel 5, etc.



Searching @kgreenbaum, @stltoday, and #kgreenbaum resulted only MY tweets, so unfortunately it appears that the Internets have forgotten Greenbaum and the P-D. This truly is a shame.



All this anger, all this animousity..and a response is never demanded by the readers of STLToday who actually care.



This truly is upsetting.
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PostNov 27, 2009#138

ThreeOneFour wrote:
I agree. They couldn't care less, as they are obviously motivated by website traffic, and they must be convinced that the comment section helps to drive that traffic, at least to some extent.



Since the carrots didn't work, as you said, it is time for the sticks. Where do we go from here?


Yeah I think that's sort of the unwritten deal STL Today has with the commenters. The thing is so many of the commenters brag about having canceled their subscription to the PD years ago for being a "librul rag". But as long as their comments draw folks to the website they are indirectly supporting the paper that they hate so much for going along with the rest of the hated "mainstream media" and refusing to report "the truth" (which among other things probably includes that Obama is a secret Kenyan muslim who has plans to lock up all white people using Chicago union thugs to invade their "real America" small towns and exurbs 8)
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PostNov 28, 2009#139

Apparently, not ALL the Internet has forgotten about Greenbaum.



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PostNov 28, 2009#140

wow. I think this Greenbaum stuff deserves its own thread. Not really related to d-bag PD commenters.
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PostNov 28, 2009#141

Besides the comments, I think stltoday/PD is doing a great job becoming the "new news paper."



Currently just like everyone, they are in a transition, but if they can hold on, I think they can actually prosper. With the advent of the VDSLR (video digital single lens reflex camera) and the integration of devices like the kindle (hoping to have video one day) I dont see why papers like the PD cant come back in FULL force.



If I had a kindle type of device that could also play videos, I would be one the first to pay a subscription to get the digital post dispatch.



I also think the PD should team up, or another paper team up with local bloggers. I would see a win/win for both parties.
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PostNov 28, 2009#142

zink wrote:Besides the comments, I think stltoday/PD is doing a great job becoming the "new news paper."



Currently just like everyone, they are in a transition, but if they can hold on, I think they can actually prosper. With the advent of the VDSLR (video digital single lens reflex camera) and the integration of devices like the kindle (hoping to have video one day) I dont see why papers like the PD cant come back in FULL force.



If I had a kindle type of device that could also play videos, I would be one the first to pay a subscription to get the digital post dispatch.
Zink is right. The future of newspapers is in rich media, social interaction, and an end to physical production/distribution that will be replaced by digital production/distribution (and a return to subscriptions.)



Everyone is aware that STLtoday (and other online newspapers) is mostly rubbish from a usability perspective. The online medium is riddled with intrusive ads, presentation (layout and typefaces) is piss-poor, and they're nothing like traditional papers which have had proven value for years. People want a rich, digital version of the physical paper. Why is this good for the P-D? First, people will actually want to subscribe again (but only if they can execute well -- and this is a big question mark! They'll need to utilize a common solution, much like the RFT and their website.) Two, they can save tons in shutting off physical production. Additionally, they'll be able to customize advertising to each subscriber which will vastly increase their bottom line.



So how will this transition to digital work? It will be implemented on a platform that is flexible and can handle rich media such as the Apple or Android Tablet. How will the interface work? Look to the New York Times which Apple is partnering with behind the scenes. Take a look and even install the Times Reader on your computer to see how this will work in the future: http://timesreader.nytimes.com/timesreader/ In spring of 2010, the next version of Adobe Air (which the Times Reader runs on) will enable multi-touch. This is crucial to make reading digital papers and books more like physical ones. And yeah, the Post-Dispatch should subsidize the hardware (much like cell phone companies do with their handsets...)



As for Amazon and their Kindle. After the Apple and Android tablets are out, I see Amazon exiting the hardware business. They only created the Kindle because no mainstream e-readers/tablets existed. Additionally, hardware is not their core competency. Their future strategy must focus on producing quality software on mainstream platforms that makes it more convenient to consume and manage one's media: books, newspapers, magazines, music, movies and television. And then, what will be their cloud strategy?


zink wrote:I also think the PD should team up, or another paper team up with local bloggers. I would see a win/win for both parties.
Awesome point! It'd lower the P-D's costs and enable them to more easily hit niche markets.

PostNov 30, 2009#143

David Carson of the Post-Dispatch wrote a column with an embedded video containing the f-bomb on 11/26/09: http://ow.ly/H7rI



Since the Post-Dispatch is adamant about pursuing those that use vulgarity on its website, we can trust that David Carson will be forced to resign promptly.
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PostNov 30, 2009#144

Did Kurt Greenbaum really say this at one point? It's posted on a, um, certain website devoted to him:


Kurt Greenbaum wrote:Surely I can bridge the conservative, religious, intolerant culture of St. Louis and the culture of the Internet, which is everything St. Louis is not...


If so, that's really classy, albeit not one bit surprising. :roll: :evil:
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PostNov 30, 2009#145

^ Actually, I don't think that's a Greenbaum quote. It seems they were mocking the facilitator of the most racist, divisive commenting system in St. Louis.
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PostDec 01, 2009#146

^ I wasn't sure. I didn't recall seeing him post or write anything remotely close to that kind of language before, so I figured it was probably some creative license courtesy of the creators of the aforementioned website.



The only reason I thought there was a remote possibility that Greenbaum may have made that statement is due to the way in which he handled the immediate aftermath of P***ygate- he wasn't exactly tactful then either.



As far as that aforementioned website is concerned, well, I think the most effective and constructive way to address the issues we have with the Post-Dispatch and its website is to continue posting to and following http://stltomorrow.org.
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PostDec 01, 2009#147

I'm still sending emails to Steve Parker, generalmanager@stltoday.com, and Kevin Mowbry. Yesterday I cc'd Kurt Greenbaum.


So Kevin, do you have any say over commenting and what a trainwreck stltoday.com's commenting section has become? Do you guys even care? Do you care that 58% of your readers said to "drop them" when Steve Parker asked us?



Do you care that an entire website is now out there dedicated to your pitiful comment moderation (unless someone says "p****")? Oh, and its www.stltomorrow.org, by the way.



From the site; "The Post-Dispatch acknowledges this in maintaining a blog titled, "Conversations on Race" yet surprisingly fosters an anonymous commenting environment that encourages the spread of ignorance which serves to further divide us





Just curious if anyone up there, anyone AT ALL, actually gives half of a damn and wants to do something besides collect a paycheck.



Thanks


Furthermore, I heard on Fox 2 this morning about a woman pushed out of her wheelchair and raped by 2 white males in Ladue. I know this is just going to open up the floodgates for "Anywhere within 15 miles of the city is not safe." Now to be honest with you, I am expecting to find this in the P-D today....but it's not in there as of yet. Would be very, very interested to see if this makes the paper.
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PostDec 01, 2009#148

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/s ... enDocument
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PostDec 02, 2009#149

So I'm assuming the silence at the P-D over this incident means 1 of 2 things:



1. They are gearing up to announce a total overhaul of their comment section, with updated software and stricter mod control, along with the demotion/firing/quitting of Greenbaum.



2. They're laying low, hoping things blow over, tell Greenbaum to cool it with the posts, and continue their lazy stance on commenters.





Hoping for 1, betting on 2.
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PostDec 02, 2009#150

yarjax14 wrote:So I'm assuming the silence at the P-D over this incident means 1 of 2 things:



1. They are gearing up to announce a total overhaul of their comment section, with updated software and stricter mod control, along with the demotion/firing/quitting of Greenbaum.



2. They're laying low, hoping things blow over, tell Greenbaum to cool it with the posts, and continue their lazy stance on commenters.





Hoping for 1, betting on 2.


Can almost guarantee #2.



I have emailed 4 people at the post, and BOMBED them with tweets. 0 responses.
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