urbanSTL

Busch Stadium is quite a hike from Soulard.



I would recommend the CWE for you guys. I used to work downtown, and the commute from the CWE area was a breeze.



The DeBaliviere Place neighborhood has what you're looking for - there are a lot of condo conversions taking place right now (the development is called Metropolis West End - http://www.metropoliswestend.com). There is a health club - St. Louis Workout - in the neighborhood, so I only have to make a short walk to get my workout. And of course the park is right there when the weather is warm!



You should definitely check out DeBaliviere Place - if you're renting, there are tons of apartments for rent too.

DeBaliviere wrote:Busch Stadium is quite a hike from Soulard.

It is about a mile walk from my old apartment. I did it many times. Plus you can pass three or four 'watering holes' on the way to keep your strength up.



I think you said your looking to rent. And I dont really know what the difference between a condo a townhouse and an apartment is so I'll just use apartment. For example my apartment in Soulard was two floors, it has two BR & 2 full bathrooms.



I liked the area between Russell and the farmers market the best. It has a better feel with all the restaraunts/bars/coffee house etc. Plus I cant over emphasize how great it was to walk down to the market on Sat morning and buy 95% of your groceries for the week for $10-20.



I guess the downside according to your criteria is there is no workout place nearby, and you cant walk to Forest Park. Soulard has a couple of small parks and Lafayette Square park is near, but nothing like FP.

I guess the downside according to your criteria is there is no workout place nearby, and you cant walk to Forest Park. Soulard has a couple of small parks and Lafayette Square park is near, but nothing like FP.

Tower Grove Park is on a bus route, if that interests you at all. I used to take the Soulard Bus from Morgan Ford Road in Tower Grove through Soulard to downtown. The entire trip took about 15-20 minutes, but that was always during the morning and evening commute. You could easily hop on the MetroBus at Russell and visit Tower Grove Park any time!

You've also got the Bike STL route that goes from Soulard all the way to Tower Grove Park. That would be a good bike ride.



Tower Grove is one of my favorite parks if not my favorite. Layfayette Park & Carondelet are 2 other favorite Parks (and of course FP)



One of the reasons I moved to STL was for the wonderful parks we have. We're pretty lucky

Speaking of Bike STL, the GIS lab at SLU has a really detailed map of the route and the surrounding built environment. I will have to take a pic of it next week. The trail system will be a nice asset to St. Louis.



OK, back to the topic.

MattnSTL wrote:Speaking of Bike STL, the GIS lab at SLU has a really detailed map of the route and the surrounding built environment. I will have to take a pic of it next week. The trail system will be a nice asset to St. Louis.



OK, back to the topic.

The GIS lab cranks out some pretty interesting maps of the City, I've noticed. I wish they were done by neighborhood and not census tract though. I realize that's harder to do. Oh well.

Speaking of maps from the GIS lab, I actually got to choose all those maps in the hallway. It was rather tough, because there where so many interesting candidates. It is a cool lab. Hopefully I will start learning some soon.



This also reminded me. The GIS lab is possibly working on a partnership with a company that takes arial photos of anywhere you want to pay for, from 15 different views at once, instead of just vertical. The technology is really cool, because it can give exact measurements, and even measure topography, along with many other things. They had a really cool demonstration on Tuesday. I don't really know much more about it though.



Wow, off topic completely. Oh well.

Hey guys,



Been lurking for awhile, thought I would jump in....I am visiting WashU in a couple of weeks and want to use the visit to get the lay of land and look at possible neighborhoods if we end up moving to Stl this fall. Can anyone provide any ideas on what neighborhoods my fiancee and I should check out on this initial visit?



Here is what I am thinking:



-Want to be intown and ideally close to WashU, although not the end of the world if not in the WashU area

-Want to buy-looking to spend 150k to 250k (i know wide range but still a lot of things up in the air at this early stage!)

-Probably look at condos but if can afford would like to look at older houses/townhomes



Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks.

Other posters are much more knowledgeable than I on this subject, but as a fellow St. Louis (city) househunter, I hope you may find the following thoughts helpful:



Being near Washington University per se is not an objective for my wife and me, but architectural/design quality and being near MetroLink and the Delmar Loop are.



For that reason, we've been looking north of Delmar in an area known as Cabanne, though some have referred to it as Visitation Park. As outlined in the Built St. Louis site (which you MUST visit if you haven't already), Cabanne's boundaries are: Page Boulevard to the north; Delmar Boulevard to the south; Skinker and Hodiamont to the west; and Union Boulevard to the east.



The housing stock is very late 19th/early 20th century, and for the most part built for people of means. Big, three story houses, not in cookie-cutter lines or rows, though clearly using the same design/decorative vocabulary. Streets are wide, with elegant setbacks and deep rear gardens. I have yet to see anything priced over $200,000, and sometimes, the prices are less than $100,000 for a house that's habitable but needs updating (not total rehab). There are multifamily dwellings, but they do not predominate.



While there's been some deterioration, abandonment and demolition, the neighborhood's superb location--coupled with the slow-but-sure rise in the fortunes of North St. Louis in general, as evidenced if only by new construction--bode well for its future prospects.



So how come Cabanne is, relatively, so cheap? Because black people live there. Just across Delmar, if I have my geography and place-names right, in a neighborhood called Skinker-DeBaliviere--which is much whiter, though not exclusively so--the houses are big, somewhat later, and easily $50K to $150K higher in price (though condition is generally better as well).



The neighborhood my wife and I live in now is majority minority historic district in New York which has become very hot. We know from experience that very often, the best housing values in any city can be found in formerly swanky neighborhoods that whites fled after World War II and later. We also know that people are people. They want to get dinner on the table, get laundry and homework done, and get ready for work the next day--just like us.



In moving to St. Louis, we have no intention of living in some hopeless slum. But we also have no intention of paying more to live in neighborhoods where whites constitute the numerical majority or will soon enough. Once those neighborhoods-- places like Shaw, Tower Grove, Soulard--become even more unaffordable than they are now, there'll be more white faces walking down the streets of Cabanne and other St. Louis neighborhoods like it, looking for a great house in a great location at a great price.



You can beat the rush now and get a 2500+ square foot house for under $150K, sometimes a lot under. Values for solid but more modest houses are even more unbelievable.



Good luck in your search.

ostrich5 wrote:Hey guys,



Been lurking for awhile, thought I would jump in....I am visiting WashU in a couple of weeks and want to use the visit to get the lay of land and look at possible neighborhoods if we end up moving to Stl this fall. Can anyone provide any ideas on what neighborhoods my fiancee and I should check out on this initial visit?



Here is what I am thinking:



-Want to be intown and ideally close to WashU, although not the end of the world if not in the WashU area

-Want to buy-looking to spend 150k to 250k (i know wide range but still a lot of things up in the air at this early stage!)

-Probably look at condos but if can afford would like to look at older houses/townhomes



Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks.

I must say bencharif's knowledge of the area, despite not being a resident, and, to my knowledge, having never been one, continues to amaze me.



But back on topic, and to be blunt and very St. Louisan-like, as bencharif was hinting, if you're white, there'll probably be certain areas you'll want to live and some you won't. Some of those areas have unfair reputations and others can be quite dangerous. Actually, though, Washington University is located in the heart of the most posh area of St. Louis City and its two most cosmopolitan suburbs, Clayton and University City. The Clayton area is quite expensive, though, where even smaller one-family units approach 300k in most instances. University City offers a bit cheaper housing stock but just as elegant...that is, of course, until you cross Delmar to the north and then property values fall off.



Most of the area in the proximity of Wash U is St. Louis City's tiny "Skinker-Wydown" neighborhood which blends into Clayton. These houses, even in the City where public schools are substandard, are very expensive and large.



The Skinker-Debalivere neighborhood could probably find you houses in the price range you want. That's about 5-10 minutes from Wash U.



Dogtown, located a couple minutes south-southeast of Wash U, is a charming city neighborhood where you could find newly opening condos/apartments as well as some older, cheaper single and double family units. I haven't really checked my pricing on housing lately, but, I believe Dogtown is mostly between 80k and 220k for houses, give or take a little. For more info on Dogtown, see the other "may be moving to St. Louis" post at the link below:



http://www.urbanstl.com/viewtopic.php?t=211&start=0

Matt Drops the H wrote:



But back on topic, and to be blunt and very St. Louisan-like, as bencharif was hinting, if you're white, there'll probably be certain areas you'll want to live and some you won't.



---------------------------------



With respect, Matt, I think you misread the thrust of my post. I was not hinting that some neighborhoods are not safe for whites to live in. To be blunt, I was trying to say is that in my opinion it's crazy to pay a premium to live in an all or mostly white neighborhood. Especially if we're talking about a neighborhood like Cabanne, whose houses are gracious and beautifully sited, and whose street life seems pretty tame and benign.



The (mostly but not exclusively black) people we saw on streets like Enright and Hamilton and Delmar were on their day off, warming up their cars, talking to the mailman, sweeping the walk. They looked like anybody and everybody--postal clerks and bus drivers and cooks and maybe a teacher here and there. I'd call the street scene comfortably routine, almost predictably dull.



I also said that, having lived in some of New York's REALLY bad neighborhoods, like the Lower East Side and Fort Greene and Red Hook (all of them reviled as slums and all of them now chic and pricey), I had come to understand that people are people and want to live their lives in peace, as I do.



I've seen how, not always but often, a crime wave turns out to be a 14-year-old kid with a rock or a knife or talent for hotwiring cars or a tendency to walk off with anything that's within sight and not nailed down. And then he's caught and it stops for a while, until another 14-year-old with too many hormones and too little supervision does something stupid.



From what I hear, they have stupid 14-year-olds in all or mostly white neighborhoods, too.

Fair enough. Sorry if I misinterpreted you. I do think the sad fact of St. Louis is that it's just not that viable to live north of Delmar if you're white because of racism going both ways.

Well, we're about to prove you wrong. I'll post the invitation to the housewarming right here. The food will be copious and delicious, the jazz just avant garde enough, and our St. Louis friends and neighbors (whom we've mostly yet to meet) warm and welcoming. Deal?

bencharif wrote:Well, we're about to prove you wrong. I'll post the invitation to the housewarming right here. The food will be copious and delicious, the jazz just avant garde enough, and our St. Louis friends and neighbors (whom we've mostly yet to meet) warm and welcoming. Deal?

Deal. I hope you do prove me wrong.

Thanks. Sounds like it is worth checking out.



Any other areas anyone suggests driving through that could be in our price range and are on the upswing?

Lafayette Square is probably out of your range by now. That 'hood is blowing up. You could probably still find a condo under $250,000 in the Central West End. I would definitely take a day to drive through a number of South Side and central corridor neighborhoods and see what feels good to you.

Skinker-DeBaliviere is an excellent choice. I've seen rehabbed houses and well-maintained houses for $225k-250k. You could walk to Wash U., Forest Park and the Loop, and it's very close to the CWE and downtown. The neighborhood even has its own MetroLink stop!



Here are some houses for sale in Skinker-DeBaliviere

• 5831 DeGiverville
  
  4 bed/1.5 bath
  
  1,960 sf
  
  $192,500
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  5902 DeGiverville
  
  Rehabbed!
  
  4 bed/1.5 bath
  
  1,690 sf
  
  $209,900
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  3 bed/2.5 bath
  
  1,782 Sq. Ft.
  
  $260,000

My recommendations would be to look at the Central West End, Midtown, or Downtown if you want a mid-rise or high-rise condo/loft. If you want a house, I'd look more at Dogtown, the hill area, Southtown, Tower Grove Park, Lafayette Square or St. Louis hills.



To do a tour of the city's neighborhoods, I'd start around Wash U. and head east until you hit downtown. Then, go south to Soulard and start heading West - this will take you through Lafayette Square, Tower Grove Park, the Hill area, and Dogtown.

I couldn't agree with the postings that make note of the racial divide more. Portions of my family grew up on the north side and left during the early 60's for the suburbs. The only reason they left was to escape the perceived "undesirables" who were moving in. This is probably the main reason why I chose to move back and raise my own family in the city 15 years ago. I believe that one day many neighborhoods north of Delmar will be revived and a few already are moving in that direction. Unfortantly with a state motto that exhibts pessimism like the phrase Show Me does. It willl probably take those people who have come here from other cities to lead the way. However everyone should keep in mind that a provincial attitude still pervades the local real estate community. Unless you plan on living in a home located in certain areas for an extended period of time you might not be ably to get the money back that you put in it. I have friends that moved to Hyde Park in the early 80's much like those who were moving into Lafeyette Square and Soulard. Needless to say many of those who have had to move during the preceding 20 years have not been able to get their money back. But those who were able to wait it out are finely begining to see property values in the area rising to a point that their investments are paying off.

Clarification:



The state motto is : salus populi suprema lex esto. A phrase Cicero wrote that translates as "the welfare of the people is the supreme law."



The "Show Me State" is Missouri's nickname. The intention was not to express pessimism, but pragmatism.

Great info. What web site are you using to get property listings?



Is there one where I can search by the neighborhoods that are being mentioned?



Thanks.

I got those listings off realtor.com. You can't search by specific neighborhood, but they do have the city broken into four quadrants: South-Southwest St. Louis (includes Tower Grove, Southampton, St. Louis Hills), East of Grand (includes downtown, Soulard, Lafayette Square), Central (Central West End, Skinker-DeBaliviere, some of the neighborhoods directly north of Delmar), and North Side.

You can also search realtor.com listings by zip code. I'm embarrassed to say I have some of those zip codes memorized:



Skinker-DeBaliviere, 63112

Cabanne, 63112

Central West End, 63108

Fountain Park, 63108

Soulard, 63104

Lafayette Square, 63104

Shaw, 63110

Tower Grove, 63110

University City, 63130



Be careful. This is a highly addictive pastime. Take it from one who's addicted.

No need to be embarassed! Don't forget 63116, which includes all of Tower Grove South.