dweebe wrote:bpe235 wrote:^ and dierbergs off eager
BZZZZZZ wrong. That was a Super Smokers.
No @#%%#@!!! Ya and now it's Masterpiece BBQ knucklehead...
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No @#%%#@!!! Ya and now it's Masterpiece BBQ knucklehead...
bpe235 wrote:dweebe wrote:bpe235 wrote:^ and dierbergs off eager
BZZZZZZ wrong. That was a Super Smokers.
No @#%%#@!!! Ya and now it's Masterpiece BBQ knucklehead...
Looks like they need to update their website.
http://www.supersmokers.com/history.asp
About 2/3 of the way down the page.
Today, there are five Super Smokers BBQ restaurants, in addition to satellite outlets in two local Dierbergs grocery stores in the metropolitan St. Louis area.
Urban Review St. Louis wrote: By reconstructing the 40/64 exit you can reclaim a huge amount of land both south & north of Market.
I remember McCormack Barron had long-term plans to redevelop this area (North of Market). Does anyone know if these plans are still in the works?
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Framer wrote:Urban Review St. Louis wrote: By reconstructing the 40/64 exit you can reclaim a huge amount of land both south & north of Market.
I remember McCormack Barron had long-term plans to redevelop this area (North of Market). Does anyone know if these plans are still in the works?
The Choteau Pond thing?
Chouteau's Pond would not be north of Market. It would be south, down in the excess capacity RR tracks and industrial flood plain in the bottoms of Mill Creek.
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TGE-ATW wrote:Chouteau's Pond would not be north of Market. It would be south, down in the excess capacity RR tracks and industrial flood plain in the bottoms of Mill Creek.
True. I did get my directions mised up. However, in an attempt to save myself, there were some canal offshoots that would go north! Not sure if north of Market though.
ETA: The first time I saw the CP plans a few years ago, my thought was "Brilliant! It will never be built."
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^
Here's a link to an article (from 2002) and an old thread about McCormack Baron's plans for downtown west:
http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stor ... tory3.html
http://www.urbanstl.com/viewtopic.php?t ... ight=baron
Here's a link to an article (from 2002) and an old thread about McCormack Baron's plans for downtown west:
http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/stor ... tory3.html
http://www.urbanstl.com/viewtopic.php?t ... ight=baron
Ok so I just returned from a brief visit to Union Station. Here are a few observations I made during the visit to the property.
The Ugly:
Generally the whole facility smelled of must , with a slight stench of urine. Coupled with numerous vagrants hanging around outside.
Secondly numerous empty store fronts . Some of the stores that were occupied generally looked like they belonged in a flee market versus one of STL premiere tourist attractions.
The good:
Lots of tourist making comments that they wished there was a better place to shop.
The Hyatt looked great.
Metro , Metro , Metro....
To surmise man did the place just plain and simply stink and its quickly turning into another albatross hanging around the City of STL neck. The City needs to show some leadership and attempt to prevent the attraction from turning into another STL Center.
The Ugly:
Generally the whole facility smelled of must , with a slight stench of urine. Coupled with numerous vagrants hanging around outside.
Secondly numerous empty store fronts . Some of the stores that were occupied generally looked like they belonged in a flee market versus one of STL premiere tourist attractions.
The good:
Lots of tourist making comments that they wished there was a better place to shop.
The Hyatt looked great.
Metro , Metro , Metro....
To surmise man did the place just plain and simply stink and its quickly turning into another albatross hanging around the City of STL neck. The City needs to show some leadership and attempt to prevent the attraction from turning into another STL Center.
Prophett wrote:Ok so I just returned from a brief visit to Union Station. Here are a few observations I made during the visit to the property.
The Ugly:
Generally the whole facility smelled of must , with a slight stench of urine. Coupled with numerous vagrants hanging around outside.
Secondly numerous empty store fronts . Some of the stores that were occupied generally looked like they belonged in a flee market versus one of STL premiere tourist attractions.
The good:
Lots of tourist making comments that they wished there was a better place to shop.
The Hyatt looked great.
Metro , Metro , Metro....
To surmise man did the place just plain and simply stink and its quickly turning into another albatross hanging around the City of STL neck. The City needs to show some leadership and attempt to prevent the attraction from turning into another STL Center.
DUDE, TURN THE BOLD OFF! WE CAN HEAR YOU!
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Prophett wrote:The City needs to show some leadership and attempt to prevent the attraction from turning into another STL Center.
Too late. I think it's already become just that.
attempt to prevent the attraction from turning into another STL Center.
They tried with the do-rag ban...
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^ Well, at least they tried.
That was a joke. Good to see there are some events planned for US. Maybe more high-end residences in the area and the Blues returning to playing real hockey will give the place a boost. I think the train shed area should be completely redeveloped - there are only so many things that can go into 1,000 sq ft retail slots.
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Even Navy Pier in Chicago doesn't have any high-end stores. But in addition to chain food, tacky ties and souvenirs, Navy Pier does have entertainment for tourists. Problem is for Union Station that we already have the nation's best tourist attraction nearby but far enough away in City Museum. And soon with Ballpark Village, we'll even have a new mixed-use entertainment district.
Perhaps, Union Station should just settle to be the City's version of Westport and Riverport. I would relocate the food court to the first floor, then convert the former food court into conference rooms and event space for rent, likely contracting with the Hyatt. The upper-floor retail across from the food court and along Hyatt's existing rooms could be converted to added hotel rooms or even extended-stay rooms, breaking up the existing balcony walkway into private balconies for rooms. As such, only the first floor would remain, reducing retail space, but making the place feel more vibrant. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I would convert a minority share of parking under the train shed into grassy lawn seating and new stage near Hard Rock for regular outdoor concerts.
Perhaps, Union Station should just settle to be the City's version of Westport and Riverport. I would relocate the food court to the first floor, then convert the former food court into conference rooms and event space for rent, likely contracting with the Hyatt. The upper-floor retail across from the food court and along Hyatt's existing rooms could be converted to added hotel rooms or even extended-stay rooms, breaking up the existing balcony walkway into private balconies for rooms. As such, only the first floor would remain, reducing retail space, but making the place feel more vibrant. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, I would convert a minority share of parking under the train shed into grassy lawn seating and new stage near Hard Rock for regular outdoor concerts.
^ In some ways that makes you think of Union Station as a convetion space. The City really doesn't need a second convention center, but Philly's converted Reading Terminal is a great space (and the main convention hall for the city). I really like southsliders idea for the existing space, but disagree with the use of the shed. To me, you could create a really interesting space simply by creating a street grid, complete with residential and commerical. All 2 to 3 story buildings.
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^I disagree about residential under the train shed, at least near the MetroLink station entrance. For one, I find it weird to live in a bubble of sorts, where it never rains. But if you were to add residences under the shed, I'd say more over towards Landry's facing the lake with shared garages off of 20th. That way, such residences aren't on the main beaten path between MetroLink and the mall but still a short enough walk away.
I'd rather see more residential density built immediately around US to the north, south and west. East seems already built out with the PO, federal offices, future NCAA offices and multi-modal center. Northeast could see some residential density added just north of the PO in those useless blocks of the Gateway Mall, still retaining Aloe Plaza of course for beautiful Milles Fountain. West will hopefully see the grid's return replacing the spaghetti-ramps of the fortunately dead 755 freeway or 22nd St. parkway, freeing up several blocks for development. South is really south of Mill Creek, where Lafayette Square is building ever closer towards the 18th Street connection to US with current redevelopment along Chouteau and hopefully someday a rehabbed St. Mary's surrounded by newer infill north of Chouteau.
The only surface parking I was sacrifing for the concert venue space was between MetroLink and the south mall entrance, or the limited parking spots between Hard Rock and Houlihan's. My inspiration is the concert venue in Chicago's Millenium Park. But I can now see ticketing being a problem as you don't want to block the mall from its patrons or have free views from the mall. Maybe instead do as another section of Millenium Park is and have outdoor dining in the summer and an ice rink in the winter. Personally, I just miss the outdoor elements of the carosel, ferris wheel, and children's train. Even a mini-golf course of St. Louis landmarks would be better than empty outdoor space.
As for convention space, the combination of Hyatt's existing space and converted upper levels of US would compete more with the Adams Marks of Downtown than the America's Center. But Philly's Reading Terminal is a good comparison, where the street level is retail, albeit a produce market, with ballrooms and convention space above.
I'd rather see more residential density built immediately around US to the north, south and west. East seems already built out with the PO, federal offices, future NCAA offices and multi-modal center. Northeast could see some residential density added just north of the PO in those useless blocks of the Gateway Mall, still retaining Aloe Plaza of course for beautiful Milles Fountain. West will hopefully see the grid's return replacing the spaghetti-ramps of the fortunately dead 755 freeway or 22nd St. parkway, freeing up several blocks for development. South is really south of Mill Creek, where Lafayette Square is building ever closer towards the 18th Street connection to US with current redevelopment along Chouteau and hopefully someday a rehabbed St. Mary's surrounded by newer infill north of Chouteau.
The only surface parking I was sacrifing for the concert venue space was between MetroLink and the south mall entrance, or the limited parking spots between Hard Rock and Houlihan's. My inspiration is the concert venue in Chicago's Millenium Park. But I can now see ticketing being a problem as you don't want to block the mall from its patrons or have free views from the mall. Maybe instead do as another section of Millenium Park is and have outdoor dining in the summer and an ice rink in the winter. Personally, I just miss the outdoor elements of the carosel, ferris wheel, and children's train. Even a mini-golf course of St. Louis landmarks would be better than empty outdoor space.
As for convention space, the combination of Hyatt's existing space and converted upper levels of US would compete more with the Adams Marks of Downtown than the America's Center. But Philly's Reading Terminal is a good comparison, where the street level is retail, albeit a produce market, with ballrooms and convention space above.
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^
Good thoughts. I especially like the idea of a skating rink at US.
Good thoughts. I especially like the idea of a skating rink at US.
How about the idea of adding a rather large ferris wheel just west of train shed , followed by bringing back old trains that were previously parked on the property , also I think it would be a great idea to build a skate park within the confines of the shed itself and last but not least going mucho crazy with a over abundance of out door cafes on market ..
I really like the idea of converting some the facility into convention space.
I really like the idea of converting some the facility into convention space.
I think Southslider's got a really good concept. Sort of a self-contained satellite facility which would complement the Convention Center.
And I love mini-golf. Really. I mean that.
And I love mini-golf. Really. I mean that.
Mix some of the ideas here with the model of Crown Center in K.C. and the Reading Station in Philly and maybe even the station in Chattanooga (along with many others that are probably out there) and I come up with one big question:
Why in the expanding environment of downtown has US seemed to decline over the past 10 years rather than maintain or grow?
15 years ago, US was a major regional hub of activity (including a Ferris Wheel).
Has the change been unintentional (due to bad management) or intentional (for some reason like investment losses)?
I'm inclined to go with benign neglect and/or ignorant ownership and management. 15 years ago I think it was still owned by the Rouse Co.
Why in the expanding environment of downtown has US seemed to decline over the past 10 years rather than maintain or grow?
15 years ago, US was a major regional hub of activity (including a Ferris Wheel).
Has the change been unintentional (due to bad management) or intentional (for some reason like investment losses)?
I'm inclined to go with benign neglect and/or ignorant ownership and management. 15 years ago I think it was still owned by the Rouse Co.
^ possibly US is too far away from the investment that's occured in other places downtown. Where has the revitalization in DT taken place? Largely along Wash Ave, the OPO district and a pocket around the new ballpark, all of which received public investment. Maybe US will require similar investment to get it going again and that's where projects like the redone 22nd st. interchange and ideas like developing some the blocks of the Mall with residential come in. Especially given the fact that it has a dedicated metrolink stop and is within easy walking distance of the new mulit-modal transit station, it seems like a good time to make an investment in this last remaining "corner" of downtown.
I think the reason why US hasn't seen spillover success from the city's revitalization is because, aside from its magnificent architectural presence, it contributes NOTHING to the urban experience. It is a crappy shopping mall with a bunch of bullsh*t chain restaurants. Much of the city's revitalization is being driven by people who don't want to hang out at a mall; we prefer to support local business, and small scale neighborhood-level development. (I know that many of the shops at US are locally owned, but they sell touristy crap.......and fudge..............what am I going to do with a Fredbird paper-weight? I guess I could weight some paper, but............) Yesterday, I walked up to south grand. I had a snack at Pho Grand, bought some spices and a can of juice at Jay Asian market, bought a pound of Chinese BBQ pork at Wei Hong (I'm making fried rice tonight), and then bought a book about St. Louis at Dunaway books. Then I walked home. In my opinion, that is the type of neighborhood shopping experience that people want in the city. Let the suburbs have their malls. Union Station needs to think out of the box. Bring on Reading Terminal/citymuseum/miniature train rides/ waterpark (connected to Chouteau's Pond??).
Well, there's two sides to that. Faneuil Hall is largely just Chesterfield Mall with a Founding Fathers exhibit, but it seems to do just fine, in large part because there are actually workers and residents nearby to complement the tourist crowd. Union Station has bupkis close (save for Kielvis, which is an interesting data point on how well sports facilities lead to growth in the surrounding urban area).
Union Station is just another poorly executed "big idea" in a long St. Louis history of same. (And I really like Union Station, at least in principle.) "Oh, no, we just can't keep the train station there, that would interfere with the experience." (Not to mention the pooh-poohing that all the skeptics received when they questioned downtown's ability to support two huge new retail developments when Union Station and St. Louis Centre were done virtually simultaneously.)
So now our list of potential saviors includes Ballpark Village, Grand Center and Laclede's Landing (I'm assuming the Pinnacle project includes subsidies). Should we kick in more subsidies for Union Station (to parallel the renewing subsidies to St. Louis Centre)? Or is there a better way to stimulate real long-term growth?
Union Station is just another poorly executed "big idea" in a long St. Louis history of same. (And I really like Union Station, at least in principle.) "Oh, no, we just can't keep the train station there, that would interfere with the experience." (Not to mention the pooh-poohing that all the skeptics received when they questioned downtown's ability to support two huge new retail developments when Union Station and St. Louis Centre were done virtually simultaneously.)
So now our list of potential saviors includes Ballpark Village, Grand Center and Laclede's Landing (I'm assuming the Pinnacle project includes subsidies). Should we kick in more subsidies for Union Station (to parallel the renewing subsidies to St. Louis Centre)? Or is there a better way to stimulate real long-term growth?
^^ for long term growth - subsidies don't do nearly as much as people shopping there regularly... and with new population (and hopefully an improving tenet list) it should defiantly help.
IMO the only thing that saves them now is the food court. It’s the only thing I know that isn’t duplicated downtown - all the Cardinals stuff you can get at the team store etc... Restaurants...
IMO the only thing that saves them now is the food court. It’s the only thing I know that isn’t duplicated downtown - all the Cardinals stuff you can get at the team store etc... Restaurants...