Middle-class Americans are incredibly anti-social and want very badly to travel in their own contained pods where they don't have to look at any of the poors or minorities they're exploiting.RockChalkSTL wrote: ↑Feb 24, 2022It makes no sense to me that America has decided to pass on being a world leader in high-speed trains.
Well, it kind of does. The automobile industry became quite a destructive entity here in the U.S.
I have a fair number of issues with Musk but that not how i read it.quincunx wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2022It was BS all along. Who knew?
Time - Elon Musk Is Convinced He's the Future. We Need to Look Beyond Him
"As I’ve written in my book, Musk admitted to his biographer Ashlee Vance that Hyperloop was all about trying to get legislators to cancel plans for high-speed rail in California—even though he had no plans to build it."
https://time.com/6203815/elon-musk-flaw ... naire-visi
Musk is pretty stupid outside of his wheelhouse (inheriting blood money and using it to buy other people's ideas).framer wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2022I still chuckle whenever I think of Musk "engineering" that crazy submarine to get the kids out of that cave in Thailand. What?
Getting way off topic but friends recommended to us a national geographic special "The Rescue" about the divers and efforts on getting those kids out of the flooded cave. Absolutely a great show to watchframer wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2022I still chuckle whenever I think of Musk "engineering" that crazy submarine to get the kids out of that cave in Thailand. What?
See, the thing is that Hyperloop isn't more capable as it stands right now. And it doesn't look feasible to get it to even the same level of capability. So if you think he's a competent engineer (and for the record, I really don't) then you have to wonder why he's really pushing this pie in the sky alternative to a solved problem. Could it be that he has a financial incentive to kill a project that might cut into automotive sales? I'm not sure if he's reckless, but I bet all his money has afforded him some pretty sweet lairs. And I absolutely believe he would ruthlessly pursue strategies to get more of that sweet sweet wah.STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2022I have a fair number of issues with Musk but that not how i read it.quincunx wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2022It was BS all along. Who knew?
Time - Elon Musk Is Convinced He's the Future. We Need to Look Beyond Him
"As I’ve written in my book, Musk admitted to his biographer Ashlee Vance that Hyperloop was all about trying to get legislators to cancel plans for high-speed rail in California—even though he had no plans to build it."
https://time.com/6203815/elon-musk-flaw ... naire-visi
The full excerpt implies that he think we shouldn't be chasing old solutions (i.e. high speed rail which has been a solved problem since the 80s/90s) but instead pursue a new paradigm (hyperloop concept) which is technologically feasible, and more capable. Basically a little naively and with a ton of hubris thinking hey all they need is a better idea and maybe they'll shift gears to something better. This happens all the time (think any number of metrolink NS route proposals floated on this site), Musk just doesn't acknowledge the increased responsibility that comes with his increased influence. This is reckless but not exactly the stuff of volcano layer supervillains.
Its was also no secret he didn't plan to fund it personally. Firstly as he stated he had a lot to deal with at the time with Tesla and SpaceX which were both in very precarious positions teetering on insolvency. Tesla was by no means a sure thing and Musk was busy trying to upset the apple cart of the existing auto industry. The preeminence of the automobile was NEVER under threat by even the most ambitious vision for mass transit and intercity rail. I do think the investment in a hyperloop company would be a much better use of his time and wealth now than say trying to own Twitter.
I also think hyperloop is inevitably going to be a public works project if it ever happens as i don't see the ROI payoff window being short enough for any private investor. America is a good candidate testing ground to prove the concept given the existing rail system kind of sucks, where as Europe has a much more mature hi speed rail system which while not as capable as a theoretical hyperloop has the distinct advantage of already existing.
You really think Tesla, a luxury car maker, is worried that any sort of mass transit project will hurt their sales? This is not GM shutting down the tram lines of the past.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Aug 25, 2022See, the thing is that Hyperloop isn't more capable as it stands right now. And it doesn't look feasible to get it to even the same level of capability. So if you think he's a competent engineer (and for the record, I really don't) then you have to wonder why he's really pushing this pie in the sky alternative to a solved problem. Could it be that he has a financial incentive to kill a project that might cut into automotive sales? I'm not sure if he's reckless, but I bet all his money has afforded him some pretty sweet lairs. And I absolutely believe he would ruthlessly pursue strategies to get more of that sweet sweet wah.STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2022I have a fair number of issues with Musk but that not how i read it.quincunx wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2022It was BS all along. Who knew?
Time - Elon Musk Is Convinced He's the Future. We Need to Look Beyond Him
"As I’ve written in my book, Musk admitted to his biographer Ashlee Vance that Hyperloop was all about trying to get legislators to cancel plans for high-speed rail in California—even though he had no plans to build it."
https://time.com/6203815/elon-musk-flaw ... naire-visi
The full excerpt implies that he think we shouldn't be chasing old solutions (i.e. high speed rail which has been a solved problem since the 80s/90s) but instead pursue a new paradigm (hyperloop concept) which is technologically feasible, and more capable. Basically a little naively and with a ton of hubris thinking hey all they need is a better idea and maybe they'll shift gears to something better. This happens all the time (think any number of metrolink NS route proposals floated on this site), Musk just doesn't acknowledge the increased responsibility that comes with his increased influence. This is reckless but not exactly the stuff of volcano layer supervillains.
Its was also no secret he didn't plan to fund it personally. Firstly as he stated he had a lot to deal with at the time with Tesla and SpaceX which were both in very precarious positions teetering on insolvency. Tesla was by no means a sure thing and Musk was busy trying to upset the apple cart of the existing auto industry. The preeminence of the automobile was NEVER under threat by even the most ambitious vision for mass transit and intercity rail. I do think the investment in a hyperloop company would be a much better use of his time and wealth now than say trying to own Twitter.
I also think hyperloop is inevitably going to be a public works project if it ever happens as i don't see the ROI payoff window being short enough for any private investor. America is a good candidate testing ground to prove the concept given the existing rail system kind of sucks, where as Europe has a much more mature hi speed rail system which while not as capable as a theoretical hyperloop has the distinct advantage of already existing.
In the meantime, we need something that works. And one state, California, is making a good-faith effort to fund the construction of that thing. How would you like a two and a half hour trip from downtown St. Louis to downtown Kansas City? That's possible right now with the tech we have. Not even hard. It just requires that we spend money on high speed rail instead of more bloody highways. $120M would actually be a good start if we chose to spend it on transit rather than a single interchange in a sparsely populated hinterland of upper-middle class people who vote early and often.
California just passed a law banning new internal combustion cars by 2035. It's not a big leap from there to banning new cars altogether. Good passenger rail is absolutely a threat to the auto manufacturers. That's why they've collectively spent so much money putting it down. And Tesla's position is surprisingly precarious. No matter the hype, they don't sell that many cars. They don't have the capacity to manufacture on the level of a GM, Toyota, or Daimler Benz. There's a fair few luxury car badges that have disappeared over the years.flipz wrote: ↑Aug 25, 2022You really think Tesla, a luxury car maker, is worried that any sort of mass transit project will hurt their sales? This is not GM shutting down the tram lines of the past.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Aug 25, 2022See, the thing is that Hyperloop isn't more capable as it stands right now. And it doesn't look feasible to get it to even the same level of capability. So if you think he's a competent engineer (and for the record, I really don't) then you have to wonder why he's really pushing this pie in the sky alternative to a solved problem. Could it be that he has a financial incentive to kill a project that might cut into automotive sales? I'm not sure if he's reckless, but I bet all his money has afforded him some pretty sweet lairs. And I absolutely believe he would ruthlessly pursue strategies to get more of that sweet sweet wah.STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2022I have a fair number of issues with Musk but that not how i read it.
The full excerpt implies that he think we shouldn't be chasing old solutions (i.e. high speed rail which has been a solved problem since the 80s/90s) but instead pursue a new paradigm (hyperloop concept) which is technologically feasible, and more capable. Basically a little naively and with a ton of hubris thinking hey all they need is a better idea and maybe they'll shift gears to something better. This happens all the time (think any number of metrolink NS route proposals floated on this site), Musk just doesn't acknowledge the increased responsibility that comes with his increased influence. This is reckless but not exactly the stuff of volcano layer supervillains.
Its was also no secret he didn't plan to fund it personally. Firstly as he stated he had a lot to deal with at the time with Tesla and SpaceX which were both in very precarious positions teetering on insolvency. Tesla was by no means a sure thing and Musk was busy trying to upset the apple cart of the existing auto industry. The preeminence of the automobile was NEVER under threat by even the most ambitious vision for mass transit and intercity rail. I do think the investment in a hyperloop company would be a much better use of his time and wealth now than say trying to own Twitter.
I also think hyperloop is inevitably going to be a public works project if it ever happens as i don't see the ROI payoff window being short enough for any private investor. America is a good candidate testing ground to prove the concept given the existing rail system kind of sucks, where as Europe has a much more mature hi speed rail system which while not as capable as a theoretical hyperloop has the distinct advantage of already existing.
In the meantime, we need something that works. And one state, California, is making a good-faith effort to fund the construction of that thing. How would you like a two and a half hour trip from downtown St. Louis to downtown Kansas City? That's possible right now with the tech we have. Not even hard. It just requires that we spend money on high speed rail instead of more bloody highways. $120M would actually be a good start if we chose to spend it on transit rather than a single interchange in a sparsely populated hinterland of upper-middle class people who vote early and often.
What, that's a huge leap! One just requires changing the mix of cars sold, the other involves redesigning 99% of our (currently auto-centric) infrastructure.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Aug 26, 2022California just passed a law banning new internal combustion cars by 2035. It's not a big leap from there to banning new cars altogether.
Exactly.MarkHaversham wrote:What, that's a huge leap! One just requires changing the mix of cars sold, the other involves redesigning 99% of our (currently auto-centric) infrastructure.symphonicpoet wrote:California just passed a law banning new internal combustion cars by 2035. It's not a big leap from there to banning new cars altogether.
Hyperloop has a number of concepts. Some uses evacuated tubes. Others simply use an airstream moving at equivalent speeds so you don't have to move it out of the way. The evacuated tubes is functionally better but harder technologically. Not for the pod, aircraft fly at 30,000 feet in pressurized cabins, but for the tube and maintaining an evacuated state over the necessary distance, and introducing the pod to the tube without breaking vacuum. Of course this is done regularly at the international space station so that's not inherently unsolvable but its challenging.symphonicpoet wrote:. . . Also, there's a big big big difference between a train in a tunnel, even a maglev train, and "Hyperloop." The thing was originally proposed to be a vacuum tunnel. Which is why it was ridiculous. And it was touted as sexy new tech, even though vacuum transit was first tested in about 1890 or so. And if it's the same, why not just propose an ordinary sized maglev with ordinary (or larger) cars and be done with it? This god-awful Hyperloop crap has always been undersized cars with limited capacities.
Anyone who claims one could be implemented without many years and massive nonrecurring development costs is ignorant, or lying. Not to invent new technology but to figure out how to implement it economically at scale. It won't come from a private entity any more than Musk built his rockets on his own. He didn't, he got essential federal funding at a critical time and it saved SpaceX. A government will have to decide its a priority for it to happen. No person is rich enough to build it on their own. After the first hyperloop is built the development cost is largely sunk you can compare per mile cost, travel and capacity to that of hi speed rail. Is it worth it. I dunno, almost certainly not at first, maybe eventually. I'm not even sure the speed advantage of high speed rail is economically justifiable. Grade separation, and dedicated dual track would do a lot for me. Speed increases are just gravy.symphonicpoet wrote:Oh, there's another form of transportation that could actually compete with the one you sell? Seriously? Not a schoolboy fantasy, but one that's there and works? Tell me more
