urbanSTL

More then ever convinced that this will never happen....Matt Schindler gave a presentation about this at Transportation Engineering Association of Metro St.Louis yesterday and he is clueless...he thinks they can get 40% federal funds for this (no chance), 40% local and they will come up with the other 20% and then they will get metro to run it...metro wants no part of this.

Why would Metro want no part of it?

pat wrote:Why would Metro want no part of it?

I think they rather spend any potential money that this may get on BRT or another route that doesn't run parallel to metrolink

^ Metro would likely be more supportive of a N-S streetcar, a N-S has better funding prospects too.

Metrolink would benefit from the streetcar.

I think they rather spend any potential money that this may get on BRT or another route that doesn't run parallel to metrolink

OK. So your saying Metro wants no part in this building this? If STL Streetcar gets this built and there's money there to maintain and operate it, I don't a reason why Metro would want no part of running it. It would be dumb to turn down another revenue stream without having to have spent any capital.

revenue stream? any kind of revenue this generates, if any would go back to paying the bonds that built it.

You're assuming it would only be built with bonds

because it would, unless you want to wait 10 years to generate the money from any local tax and however they plan to come up with the other 20%, this is all assuming they manage to somehow get 40% from the feds. (which at best case is 2024 ish if they plan to go with the new starts route (that program may not even exist in a few years)

Part of the streetcar financing includes payments from Metro for operations equivalent to the money Metro spends to operate the Lindell portion of the 10 Gravois-Lindell bus with the idea that once the streetcar starts up, the bus line would no longer be needed. And yes, Metro is on record as not wanting streetcars presumably because they're not "regional" enough. In my opinion, Metro is inappropriately correlating "regional" with distance.

mill204 wrote:Part of the streetcar financing includes payments from Metro for operations equivalent to the money Metro spends to operate the Lindell portion of the 10 Gravois-Lindell bus with the idea that once the streetcar starts up, the bus line would no longer be needed.

so metro is going to pay itself to operate it? I see now, this is a cant miss

^Taxpayers pay Metro to operate the 10.

A N-S streetcar should be the priority of the St. Louis Streetcar, that is the only way I would support Metro funding going towards this project. I'm also skeptical that this project will be able to get off of the ground, because the service is somewhat redundant and the city is missing the crucial north-south rail connection that would give our rail transit system some balance. Not only that, North and South City alderman have come out against this project, including Alderman Roddy, on the grounds of transit equity. The Central Corridor is already well served for transit, amenities etc. and there is no doubt in my mind that it will continue to grow rapidly with or without the streetcar. On the other hand a N-S line would be an economic boost to North and South City and serve a MUCH greater transit need. I think a N-S streetcar would be way more competitive than a the existing proposal, in fact the only reason the St. Louis Streetcar included the minor spur to Old North was because that is the only way it could argue that it was servicing a distressed area in need of an economic boost.

roger wyoming II wrote:^ I'm a broken record on this point, but I'd like to examine implementing true BRT instead of more expensive streetcar. But real BRT and not watered down junk! I think for the same amount of $$ you could build a nice network that provides a decent N/S link in the city and keep the Olive/Lindell run to CWE.

In addition, the County could bring its resources to expand the North run down West Flo.

The problem with that is that "real BRT" is about as expensive as streetcar without the ambiance and/or economic potential. Cleveland's line was NOT CHEAP by any means, they might as well built streetcar, because BRT has little economic impact without new streetscapes etc. I would much rather have streetcars than BRT, especially that Metro is proposing. Now if they were proposing a Great Streets type project and dedicated lane BRT than I would be all for it, but Metro is basically proposing an express bus system, NOT BRT.

^ My understanding was that the cost of Cleveland's Health Line (which includes its own right-of-way for the large majority of its length and own stations) was much less expensive than track. I'll try to check into that some more or if you have some numbers that would be great. Also, economic development is booming along the line but it is hard to say how much is due to the BRT and how much would happen anyway.

I agree Metrolink's proposal is not BRT.... it might not be a bad thing on some routes but shouldn't be seen as rapid transit.

I still think the St. Louis Streetcar would garner more support and have a MUCH better change of getting done if they focused on a N-S segment first, a lot of people are already dubbing this the "elitist line" and this a diverse group of people saying this. I would also wager that Metro would help with planning, engineering, and operations if this were a N-S line.

^ wasn't Georgia Tech or State looking to turn that ballpark into their football stadium when the Braves leave.

^^^ Yes, a big part of our slow growth problem is that our local government structure is inefficient and slow to move.

goat314 wrote:....a lot of people are already dubbing this the "elitist line" and this a diverse group of people saying this.

Which people and which groups are you referring to?

I like the idea of a southside line, but I don't see the justification (perhaps other than political viability) for a northside line. At this point the near northside is extensively hollowed out. I just don't see it generating the ridership or development needed to justify the infrastructure. Other than Carr Sq. and Columbus Sq., which are pretty walkable to Downtown, the density just isn't there anymore.