Also, I think you need more stations. With only 7 stops, inclusive, between Grand and Civic Center, that comes out to ~930 meters between stops. In Europe streetcar stops are often 500-700 meters apart; in the US, however, the spacing is often only 200-500 meters apart.[/list]
^ when you add costs to those timing numbers.....bus over streetcar all day every day. This is why metro thinks it is insane to build a streetcar from downtown to cwe.
^ I should point out that 12mph in a dedicated lane is on the low end. It should be possible to get up to a 15mph average speed in which case it would only take 14min to traverse the distance. And if a streetcar is capable of doubling or even tripling ridership, then perhaps it's worth the high capital cost? I still believe its worth a full study. Metro just dismisses streetcars out of hand while promoting so called BRT that is little more than frequent express bus.
High speed elevated maglev could make the trip, with 7 stops, in about 6 or 7 minutes. But seriously, I thought this was about TOD, and promoting/encouraging car-free lifestyles and density.
What if they added incentives for Metro? Something like allocating a percentage of taxes or profits raised at any new TODs along the downtown to CWE route back to Metro? I know nothing of the business side of things like this so maybe that is pure insanity.
I don't know where the money goes now but they should use the money from street parking/parking lots to help fund the streetcar line(s). Probably not a massive amount of money but it would help. Plenty of Lindell in the cwe doesn't have meters yet. Downtown you have all of those parking garages that should be able to fund LRT.
It gets turned over to the city as part of their general revenue I think. City can easily cut it's workforce by 1000...by my guesstimate that would be a saving of $700,000,000-1,000,000,000 over 10 years... Can you do a lot of things with that money.....
^ when you add costs to those timing numbers.....bus over streetcar all day every day. This is why metro thinks it is insane to build a streetcar from downtown to cwe.
Sure but why wasn't the Lindell Route chosen for the proposed BRT...? also why wasn't Gravois one of the options...? and why don't the proposals included a dedicated lane...?
I'd be amenable to BRT if they built them the right way and put them in the right places. I think that's insane.
Parking money goes to the Treasurer's office which is separate from general revs. I get the impression its heavily in debt due to speculative parking garage building.
quincunx wrote:Parking money goes to the Treasurer's office which is separate from general revs. I get the impression its heavily in debt due to speculative parking garage building.
Doesn't it turn over what's left over after expenses to the general rev?
dbInSouthCity wrote:True. But again is the investment in a streetcar worth to shave off 3-4 min in travel over doing a brt or a normal bus.
Too bad neither Metro nor Saint Louis Streetcar is proposing BRT. You could build out a decent system in a cost-effective manner while also gaining a lot of the development benefits of track systems.
I don't really see the relevance of Metro or Metro employees liking the project or not. It makes sense that they wouldn't like it if it means they have to compete harder for federal grants for new projects. That said, it's not going to take away any of their tax revenue, and I doubt revenue from the #10 is filling their coffers. Competition for funding for the best projects, as opposed to Metro having a monopoly on transit, could be a good thing. Just because the project wouldn't make sense for Metro to pursue (particularly considering their County tax-paying overlords), doesn't mean it's not a good project for the neighborhoods and city.
KerrytheKonstructor wrote:But seriously, I thought this was about TOD, and promoting/encouraging car-free lifestyles and density.
Couldn't agree more. Metro and a Lindell streetcar have two different objectives. One is mass transit, the other is transit oriented development. It's a subtle but important distinction, one measures its success through ridership, the other through investment dollars and influence on the built environment.
I view the entire Metrolink system as a success, but it's track record with TOD certainly leaves something to be desired. Maybe some more localized, TOD focused projects will serve as a nice complement to the more high-speed, far-reaching, but TOD deficient Metrolink. The TOD success of Metro's bus network speaks for itself.
dbInSouthCity wrote:^ words of metro employees....
Well let's face it, Metro also likes BRT connecting Chesterfield and light rail to Westport. I think Metro needs a little education on what an urban transportation system is supposed to look like.
But I guess that's what happens when the CEO is from Chesterfield.
One word has pretty much governed Metro's thinking in the past 5 years: regional. BRT is "regional" because it quickly goes to I-270 and beyond. Streetcars are not "regional" because they are slow and have very limited reach beyond the city.
quincunx wrote:Parking money goes to the Treasurer's office which is separate from general revs. I get the impression its heavily in debt due to speculative parking garage building.
Doesn't it turn over what's left over after expenses to the general rev?
I don't know for sure, but IIRC they either don't (that is it's at their discretion) or haven't had any extra to turn over in recent history.
I do know that Jones said they weren't doing free parking on opening day and charging downtown on Saturdays because they needed the revenue for debt service.
It seems a line similar to the St. Charles streetcar in New Orleans would be pretty simple on Gravois. Correct me if I'm wrong but there are no expensive stations, no tunnels, no overpasses on the New Orleans line. It runs down the middle of the road right?
I think I mentioned this before but, dammit, if we can build a railroad through the Rocky Mountains, across the desert all the way to Pacific Ocean 175 years ago surely we can lay down a train track on a paved road pretty easy and for less than a few billions dollars. Let's get it together people!!!!
Buses just don't have same effect as dedicated rail.
I can't believe that empty CO2 spewing gas guzzling buses haven't raised the ire of environmentalists. Really weird, you never hear a peep about it from them. Maybe in this case the ridership trumps the environment in their twisted little brains.
^Um, because buses carry lots of people and if all of them were driving cars that would be much higher pollution. It's kind of a no-brainer. I do agree with you on the importance of building more rail, which 99% of environmentalists would, unlike the rest of the population I'll remind you.
Metro seems to shake it's head when it comes to anything else urban or maybe I'm reading it wrong.. How many people do they think would actually ride the brt..
My opinion i think the street car would be more touristy than anything else however would enhance development immensely in the city.
I'm a bit luke warm when it comes to metro link expansion out west like Chesterfield & Westport so i'll be guessing the North South line is in doubt..
quincunx wrote:Parking money goes to the Treasurer's office which is separate from general revs. I get the impression its heavily in debt due to speculative parking garage building.
Tishaura Jones said there was a lot of debt to service when asked why they'd be enforcing meters on Cardinals opening day. Anyone know where the debt came from? I figure it's from parking garage building.
KMOX - No More Free Parking On Opening Day
“In the past, the office has offered free parking to people on Opening Day,” St. Louis Treasurer Tishaura Jones said. However, with a $72 million debt looming, the Parking Division cannot afford to look the other way this year.
leeharveyawesome wrote:Buses just don't have same effect as dedicated rail.
I can't believe that empty CO2 spewing gas guzzling buses haven't raised the ire of environmentalists. Really weird, you never hear a peep about it from them. Maybe in this case the ridership trumps the environment in their twisted little brains.
I'd venture to guess that buses will be electric in 5-10 years.
"An Electric Bus named Desire." There. Buses are now cool.
Metro always cleans up for the Congestion Mitigation and Air Quality Program (CMAQ) at EWG for nat gas buses, about 20-30 buses each round of applications
A smaller extension of the starter KC streetcar line down to Country Club Plaza would have won but what sank things was the plan to expand into the lower income neighborhoods east of Troost, where the proposal got crushed. It looks like they'll go back again in 2016 after the starter line opens and see if they go the more limited route or try a larger expansion again.
Anyway, I think Saint Louis Streetcar organizers will be looking closely at the results in KC and what they may mean for how to fund streetcar in poorer, African-American majority neighborhoods where support for special TDD taxes may be low.
An analysis of Tuesday’s election results shows there may be an appetite for expansion from downtown to the Country Club Plaza, but certainly not east of Troost Avenue, where city leaders had hoped to give the east side of the city a huge economic boost.
The city wanted voter support for extensions south on Main Street to the University of Missouri-Kansas City, along Independence Avenue and Linwood Boulevard, plus a MAX rapid bus line on Prospect Avenue.
Precinct results show that voters west of Troost generally approved the expansion by a 55 to 45 percent margin, according to veteran campaign consultant Steve Glorioso, who worked for the pro streetcar campaign. Turnout west of Troost was about 28 percent.
But in the Northeast neighborhoods and primarily African-American precincts east of Troost, Glorioso said, the proposal got crushed, with 70 percent or more opposed. Turnout was low, roughly 12 percent, but that geographic area had more voters than west of Troost.
The end result: 8,602 votes against versus 5,657 votes for the plan, in unofficial returns.
“Had this election only been to extend the starter line up Main to UMKC, it would have passed,” Glorioso said.
That would have involved a smaller taxing district and voters just west of Troost. But city officials had wanted to provide an economic and social justice benefit to the eastern part of the city. And James and Councilman Russ Johnson had argued that Kansas City should seize the moment while the Obama administration looked favorably on its plan.
The City Council hoped voters would approve local funding necessary to qualify for a huge federal matching grant to build the $515 million expansion project. But opponents argued the cost was too high, the taxes too burdensome and buses were the better way to go.
