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PostJul 01, 2012#826

It's more likely now that the Rams may be on their way out.
NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell sent a memo about Los Angeles to the league's 32 teams Friday -- one that surely resonated with the San Diego Chargers, Oakland Raiders, St. Louis Rams and any others that might be considering relocation to the nation's second-largest market. "Although substantial uncertainties remain," Goodell wrote in the two-page document obtained by The Times, "stadium development in Los Angeles has advanced to the point where the prospects for a new facility are better than they have been in many years." The purpose of the memo does not appear to be driven by any plans that might be imminent. Rather, NFL insiders say, the commissioner felt it was appropriate to set and restate some ground rules, foremost among them: It's the league -- and not an individual team -- that will control the relocation process.
Read more: http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumo ... xid=cnnbin

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PostJul 01, 2012#827

innov8ion wrote:It's more likely now that the Rams may be on their way out.
I still think the Chargers or Raiders are more likely candidates than the Rams.

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PostJul 02, 2012#828

stlien wrote:
innov8ion wrote:It's more likely now that the Rams may be on their way out.
I still think the Chargers or Raiders are more likely candidates than the Rams.
Agreed.

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PostJul 02, 2012#829

^ So far the presence of L.A. as a relocation threat for teams looking for new stadiums has been very advantageous to NFL owners. I think until

1) A city calls an owner's bluff and he actually moves his team to L.A.

or

2) There is only one team left standing with an outdated stadium or a weak lease

the NFL will continue to use L.A. as a bludgeon to extract public funding for new stadiums in current markets.

It seems like St. Louis would fall into the first category, if only because the terms of their lease dictate a deal is done sooner than Oakland or San Diego, and the deal will likely come down to how much public money the Rams can get.

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PostAug 13, 2012#830

Rams Cancel London Games in 2013 and 2014
Source: http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news ... ondon.html

Reason given is that the Rams want to focus on converting the Jones Dome into a First-Tier Venue.

The 2012 London game vs. the Pats is still a go; that weekend, the CVC has a "major" convention booked for the Dome.

The Rams and the CVC are currently in arbitration.

So... What does this all mean? Does anyone have any actual insight (not just conjecture)?

Keep hope alive...

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PostAug 13, 2012#831

gone corporate wrote:What does this all mean? Does anyone have any actual insight (not just conjecture)?
No.

But for conjecture...the CVC had to agree to change the agreement they had with the Rams. I suppose we can take that as a good sign that the two sides are talking? Frankly, the CVC makes more money (as does the city) when it can get a convention instead of a game. For this fall, CVC booked the 20,000 person Herbalife convention. They're estimating 9,000 hotel nights. The impact will be much substantially larger than an NFL game.

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PostAug 17, 2012#832

Alex Ihnen wrote:
gone corporate wrote:What does this all mean? Does anyone have any actual insight (not just conjecture)?
No.

But for conjecture...the CVC had to agree to change the agreement they had with the Rams. I suppose we can take that as a good sign that the two sides are talking? Frankly, the CVC makes more money (as does the city) when it can get a convention instead of a game. For this fall, CVC booked the 20,000 person Herbalife convention. They're estimating 9,000 hotel nights. The impact will be much substantially larger than an NFL game.
It it either / or? Do they really need fill up ALL of the regular convention space for Herbalife and require the dome space? Or is it just novelty that they can meet where an NFL team plays and they've seen it on TV?

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PostAug 17, 2012#833

gary kreie wrote: It it either / or?
Yes.

[EDIT] There can be a convention in the same weekend as a Rams home game but it must be a smaller convention. Access to the Dome is restricted saturday and Sunday. And Sunday parking would be a concern to the convention. And we know all too well how peop parking. There are several conventions that don't exhibit in the Dome but use it for gatherings, guest speakers, worship services, etc.

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PostAug 17, 2012#834

The St. Louis metro area is 16th out of 30 largest metro areas with NFL teams and will easily be the largest without an NFL team if the Rams leave for LA. There will be a lot of disposal sport dollars available in St. Louis to spend on some other sport. The NFL if gradually falling out of favor due to brain injuries. If the NFL fails in St. Louis, what sport would we want to attract for the long term to entertain St. Louisans and acquire our sports dollars?

Vote for one:
1. MSL -- Major League Soccer. On the rise worldwide and in the U.S. Could play in the dome. (Would soccer games prohibit conventions in the fall the same way NFL football does?)
2. NBA -- They would probably share the Scottrade Center with the Blues.
3. A second baseball team -- An American League Team -- The Brownies. They could share Busch Stadium and provide baseball every night of the week during the summer in St. Louis.



NFL Cities:
Pop. Rank Metro Population (in millions) City Name NFL Team (from Sporcle.com)
1. 19 New York Giants, Jets
2. 9.6 Chicago Bears
3. 6.3 Dallas Cowboys
4. 5.8 Philadelphia Eagles
5. 5.7 Houston Texans
6. 5.41 Miami Dolphins
7. 5.37 Atlanta Falcons
8. 5.35 Washington Redskins
9. 4.5 Boston Patriots
10. 4.4 Detroit Lions
11. 4.28 Phoenix Cardinals
12. 4.27 San Francisco 49ers, Raiders
13. 3.3 Seattle Seahawks
14. 3.2 Minneapolis Vikings
15. 3.0 San Diego Chargers
16. 2.8 St. Louis Rams
17. 2.7 Tampa Buccaneers
18. 2.6 Baltimore Ravens
19. 2.5 Denver Broncos
20. 2.4 Pittsburgh Steelers
21. 2.2 Cincinnati Bengals
22. 2.1 Cleveland Browns
23. 2.0 Kansas City Chiefs
24. 1.71 Indianapolis Colts
25. 1.70 Charlotte Panthers
26. 1.6 Nashville Titans
27. 1.3 Jacksonville Jaguars
28. 1.13 New Orleans Saints
29. 1.12 Buffalo Bills
30. 0.3 Green Bay Packers

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PostAug 17, 2012#835

For comparison sake - another way to look at it is by tv market. St Louis is the 21st largest tv market meaning out of 32 teams only 9 are in smaller markets. Rank 23. There are three higher ranking tv markets without a team: Los Angeles, Sacramento, and Orlando.
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/pu ... s_2011.pdf

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PostAug 17, 2012#836

Orlando and Sacremento are barely above St Louis and only because they include other distant cities. Sacremento probably could be lumped with LA or SF TV markets since they get those stations. Also, Daytona is Jaguar country. It is just as close to Jacksonville as it is to Orlando.

Without them only the LA TV market is bigger.

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PostAug 20, 2012#837

New counter proposal provided to the Rams on Friday from the CVC was just posted http://www.explorestlouis.com/rams


No retractable roof. No more building in Baer park. But they did add soem areas of the dome that stick out, including outdoor areas, towards Baer Park.

Renovations are pretty extensive. New people movers, additional restrooms, remodeled suites, improved concessions, additional courtyards, a large 4 sided scoreboard etc etc.

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PostAug 20, 2012#838

There are definite improvements here, and I think the Rams & Stan K can work with this in their presumptive counter-proposals.

The extended hallways and related improvements along the East/Broadway side of the Dome are quite nice, especially thinking about how they will add natural light inside while bringing in the novelty of porch decks with possible recliners to a football stadium. Replacing the current scoreboards with the Dallas-esque above-field scoreboards would open up a lot of room for new seats, and increased points-of-purchase would definitely help increase gross sales revenues. Cleaning up the courtyard between the Convention Center and the Dome is definitely appreciated, as it's little more than a dirty cement cove for the smokers. Filling the walls with pictures, decorations, and flat screens are great improvements and should help kill the "dingy" feel of the Dome's current iteration (and should have been done long ago). And, you've got to love how each page is titled "CONFIDENTIAL".

What's most important remains Section IV: Obligations for Payment.
Listed on Page 123, it reiterates the CVC's argument on how much each side is responsible to pay. From the document:
IV. OBLIGATIONS FOR PAYMENT

Limitation To First-Tier Plan For Items Generally Provided By NFL Franchisee


Though CVC's plan includes all of the aforesaid improvements, CVC is not proposing that it be solely responsible for the cost of those items.

The Amended Lease provides that "It is also acknowledged and agreed that the determination of whether or not this First Tier standard has been met shall not include a comparison to an item in such stadia if such item is generally provided for in the stadia by NFL franchises at the sole cost and expense of the NFL franchises."

This language limits CVC's obligation for new construction or renovatins to the extent the items included in those improvements are generally paid for by the NFL franchisee in other stadia. CVC has researched tha franchisees' contributions to the new stadia built and/or stadia significantly renovated since the last measuring date in 2005. This data indicates that NFL franchisees have been solely responsible for generally providing over fifty percent of the proposed costs of the items included in these stadia projects. Therefore, CVC is only obligated under the Amended Lease to undertake and/or provide funding for less than fifty percent of the proposed costs associated with this plan, and the Rams have the obligation to fund the balance of the improvements.
I believe that this is the crux of the entire deal. If the Rams are liable for 50%+ of the costs to the new stadium, to be determined through Arbitration, then we'll really know if this will happen. If Arbitration says that the Rams'll owe 50%+ of the costs of improvements, then we just have to hope that the improvements won't cost $700M and force the CVC, etc. to try to find $350M. If this argument fails, and the CVC is left with the whole costs to improvement, then odds are the Rams can do whatever they want. That said, I see this position as quite strong, utilizing industry precedent in conjunction with the content of the contract.

Long-term, I do see both sides reaching a deal, and the Rams staying in STL.

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PostAug 20, 2012#839

^agreed

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PostAug 20, 2012#840

I was happy to see that the CVC adopted my suggestion (from 2007) to put a video scoreboard over the field in their initial proposal, and now adopt my other suggestion to free up the end zones for additional seating where the old scoreboards used to be. This additional end zone seating will work great when NCAA Basketball is here -- on one end of the dome. The additional seating plus new temporary seating gets the total possible up to 70,552 according to the new proposal(vs. 66,744 now)which is above the Super Bowl minimum threshold.

Here is what I proposed on this board in 2007, after seeing that Dallas was planning an overhead video scoreboard and doing a little research on dimensions that showed it could work in the EJ dome as well.

http://nextstl.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=91120#p91120

http://nextstl.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=89886#p89886

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PostAug 20, 2012#841

moorlander wrote:New counter proposal provided to the Rams on Friday from the CVC was just posted http://www.explorestlouis.com/rams


No retractable roof. No more building in Baer park. But they did add soem areas of the dome that stick out, including outdoor areas, towards Baer Park.

Renovations are pretty extensive. New people movers, additional restrooms, remodeled suites, improved concessions, additional courtyards, a large 4 sided scoreboard etc etc.
I want so bad to get rid of that damn roof. Not only does it make the building look at least 100% more hideous than it would be otherwise, I also want the option of the Rams playing in an outdoor environment.

However, I'm willing to live with the new plan if it means keeping the Rams where they are, and I expect most Rams fans would feel the same way. There was never a way for city, county, and state governments to subsidize half of the Rams' $700 million proposal, and I don't think the public investment should be even close to that amount anyway.

The upgrades outlined in this new plan will give the stadium a new lease on life and it will address some of the more egregious shortcomings, with the exception of the roof, of course. It will still be difficult to iron out the amount and scope of public investment, and I hope that investment is as small as possible. However, I want the Rams to stay here, and I think this plan reflects the reality that the Rams have few if any viable relocation options. Canceling the London games in 2013 and 2014 was also a good move that to me reinforced this reality. There might be an exception to the rule here or there, but I think the days of cities (especially cash-strapped cities like St. Louis) handing out hundreds of millions of dollars to sports teams are coming to an end.

So, you can't always get what you want, but in the end, I think we'll still have a professional football team for years to come.

And hopefully Saturday's preseason game against Kansas City is a sign of things to come and they'll actually PLAY like a professional football team!

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PostAug 20, 2012#842

The new expanded areas will actually be larger than the 50k square foot building the Rams requested in Baer Park.

From the announcement...
We have removed the originally proposed 50,000 square foot building in Baer Plaza and replaced it with a 55,000 square foot addition to the existing facility

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PostAug 21, 2012#843

Back in 2007, I sent my suggestions for a video scoreboard over the field and replacing current scoreboard space with seats, like the one Dallas had announced, to the CVC and the Architecture firm doing the 2008 updates. They thanked me and explained that 2008 updates were already set as I recall.

In November 2011, I sent the same suggestion to Kevin Demoff of the Rams after the Charter PSL Holders lunch, along with a few other suggestions. At that time he thought the over-field video board would would not work. Here is his response to my (OK, over the top) suggestions. But, hey, I am a Charter PSL holder since 1995. Here is Kevin's reply:
Gary,

Thank you for taking the time after our luncheon to send Elizabeth your thoughts for upgrades to the EJD. I would agree with many of your suggestions, as some of the things we have discussed are putting more screens in the upper corners of the endzones (over the field might not work for conventions), changing the roof to make it more transparent and lots of ideas for increasing the natural light that comes into the building. Additionally, I would love to add some themed restaurants or bars in the 400 level to make the experience better, I’m not sure the insurance companies would be thrilled with a “rafters bar” though!

All of those are concepts we have discussed and may propose, we have a lot of ideas on the drawing board. Many other things we look at are the ingress/egress, increased vertical transportation to the upper levels, better communications/wireless systems throughout the building, more public gathering areas, a team store, etc.

Keep sending me your thoughts as we get closer to the process, and I hope to see you tomorrow.



Kevin



Kevin Demoff

Executive VP/Football Operations & Chief Operating Officer
Many of the things listed here by Kevin sound like what CVC proposed -- increase vertical transportation, wireless systems throughout, more public gathering areas, and a team store. So I think maybe the CVC and the Rams have been engaging in serious conversations, and the CVC proposal addresses what the Rams say they want.

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PostAug 21, 2012#844

^IMO - the latest proposal likely reflects wants from the Rams and was put together with a lot of their input. Not that they're going to sign off on it 100%, but I take it as a sign that they're working together.

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PostAug 22, 2012#845

Kevin Demoff will either accept something fundable but possibly less than the upper 25% of NFL stadiums in every category, or he will declare all the CVC plans unacceptable, depending on marching orders from Stan Kroenke.

The Rams could come to agreement quickly if they want to honor the original 30 year committment to the city and the fans, or, if they want a new stadium in Chesterfield, Fenton, Illinois, or LA, they could propose something unfundable and hope the arbitration panel sides with them. And then they will need to hope that the CVC will not accept the arbitration result or will not be able to pay for it. Then they will be out of the lease.

Since the lease is pretty lucrative to them, shouldn't the Rams be playing both sides? Shouldn't they aslo threaten to stay in the dome unless Chesterfield, Fenton, Illinois, or LA give them a sweetheart deal? Or will they save that for the year-to-year lease period?

Also, the CVC point to the clause that says NFL teams should provide items normally provided by other NFL teams -- which they say includes 50% of the stadium improvments themselves. If the Rams challenge this, it would go to courts, not arbitration I assume, which could last years. How did John Shaw's crack team of lawyers miss that one?

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PostAug 23, 2012#846

gary kreie wrote:Kevin Demoff will either accept something fundable but possibly less than the upper 25% of NFL stadiums in every category, or he will declare all the CVC plans unacceptable, depending on marching orders from Stan Kroenke.

The Rams could come to agreement quickly if they want to honor the original 30 year committment to the city and the fans, or, if they want a new stadium in Chesterfield, Fenton, Illinois, or LA, they could propose something unfundable and hope the arbitration panel sides with them. And then they will need to hope that the CVC will not accept the arbitration result or will not be able to pay for it. Then they will be out of the lease.

Since the lease is pretty lucrative to them, shouldn't the Rams be playing both sides? Shouldn't they aslo threaten to stay in the dome unless Chesterfield, Fenton, Illinois, or LA give them a sweetheart deal? Or will they save that for the year-to-year lease period?

Also, the CVC point to the clause that says NFL teams should provide items normally provided by other NFL teams -- which they say includes 50% of the stadium improvments themselves. If the Rams challenge this, it would go to courts, not arbitration I assume, which could last years. How did John Shaw's crack team of lawyers miss that one?
Very good points, Gary. I'd be surprised if the Rams didn't play both sides of the debate eventually; it's in their best interests to get the best deal. And I don't think fans will react negatively if the Rams look to the suburbs for an alternate location. It's a different set of circumstances than the Cardinals, in that the Rams only play 10 home games (eight regular and two preseason) each season, and the Cardinals had an established presence in downtown since 1966.

That said, I'm still cautiously optimistic the Rams will stay put- in St. Louis and at the EJD.

Also, your last point in particular is very good, because I can't imagine the Rams would get very far in challenging this point unless they were perfectly okay with the matter getting bogged down in the courts for years. I can't imagine they'll let that happen, but who knows what Mr. K is thinking?

Like Alex said, there's probably still a lot of wrangling left to be done, but at least the compromise proposal shows the two sides are working together. The CVC has at least upped the ante- it's not the Field of Dreams that looked great but was unrealistic from a funding standpoint- but it's a hell of a lot better than the original submission by the CVC in my opinion.

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PostAug 23, 2012#847

gary kreie wrote:Kevin Demoff will either accept something fundable but possibly less than the upper 25% of NFL stadiums in every category, or he will declare all the CVC plans unacceptable, depending on marching orders from Stan Kroenke.

The Rams could come to agreement quickly if they want to honor the original 30 year committment to the city and the fans, or, if they want a new stadium in Chesterfield, Fenton, Illinois, or LA, they could propose something unfundable and hope the arbitration panel sides with them. And then they will need to hope that the CVC will not accept the arbitration result or will not be able to pay for it. Then they will be out of the lease.

Since the lease is pretty lucrative to them, shouldn't the Rams be playing both sides? Shouldn't they aslo threaten to stay in the dome unless Chesterfield, Fenton, Illinois, or LA give them a sweetheart deal? Or will they save that for the year-to-year lease period?

Also, the CVC point to the clause that says NFL teams should provide items normally provided by other NFL teams -- which they say includes 50% of the stadium improvments themselves. If the Rams challenge this, it would go to courts, not arbitration I assume, which could last years. How did John Shaw's crack team of lawyers miss that one?
This is a huge point that every journalist I've seen write/speak on this issue either doesn't know about, or is purposefully not mentioning it to stir the pot for greater ratings/readership. For those that are unfamiliar with the language, this is a quote from the latest proposal sent this week, which itself quotes the language from the current agreed-to, binding lease (emphasis my own):
Though the CVC's plan includes all of the aforesaid improvements, the CVC is not proposing that it be solely responsible for the cost of those items. The Amended Lease provides that "It is also acknowledged and agreed that the determination of whether or not this First Tier standard has been met shall not include a comparison to an item in such stadia if such item is generally provided for in the stadia by NFL franchises at the sole cost and expense of the NFL franchisees."
This means that places like MetLife in New York and Cowboys Stadium, who were funded either entirely or almost entirely by the teams, are essentially out of the running, lest the Rams feel like paying for the entire new stadium by themselves. The lease points to the fact that generally speaking, since that 2005 amendment to the lease, teams have paid MORE than fifty percent of each new stadium.

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PostAug 23, 2012#848

^ You got it - want to write up something for blog? This first tier/team expenditures really is the core of the issue. AND - the Rams not only need to get the best plan possible for themselves, they also have to agree to a plan that taxpayers will fund - that's a narrow tightrope to walk.

PostAug 23, 2012#849

Anyone know where to find a chart or numbers for the dollar amounts of public/private funding on recent stadiums? IIRC, aren't the newest stadiums out of the conversation? I thought the lease used stadiums built up until 2005 or something to define top tier - could be wrong.

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PostAug 24, 2012#850

Here is a table from the Wall Street Journal, February 28, 2012.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 56028.html

Somewhere I thought I read that it applied to stadiums that are in use by the end of the 2014 season. So the new Minneapolis stadium would not be considered in the top tier, because it will not be open yet. Same with SF and LA. But all the others could be.

I like that the CVC is looking at small things, like material used -- granite, leather, marble, etc., since that is a place where they could pass other stadiums without tearing down walls. (The Rams may have mentioned superior materials as a discriminator in discussion somewhere along the way.) In the overall stadium tier category, I hope the CVC points out that the EJ dome can control the fan physical comfort completely -- light, temperature, rain, wind, & sound. Any stadium that is open air is at a lower tier in this area. The EJ Dome is no worse than the 8th best dome out of the 9, Minneapolis being the 9th.

The Rams need to avoid overreaching. Prediction: CVC will accept the arbitration result, will plan to pay for as much as they can with money on hand, and then fund the rest of their half with a vote on a tax. But it will likely be a tax on visitors and Rams customers. (increase the tax on hotels and rental cars in the city and county, and tax purchases of luxury sky boxes and club seats at sporting events.) This is a tax that will pass.

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