beware of shoddy construction
is it really worth all the money?
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/02/2 ... -plug.html
is it really worth all the money?
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/02/2 ... -plug.html
So are you suggestng that any large even shouldn't be downtown or central city. You could probably 6 to 8 other events that draw close or more then 60k with participants and observers alikeAlex Ihnen wrote:I think it's a great location. Any event with 60K people that occurs 8x a year shouldn't be in a downtown or central city.
Race for the Cure
Go Marathon
St. Louis Faire
St. Patricks Parade
Music events.
Not sure what your getting at. Yes, a lot of fans come in and go for the game. But even 10 or 20% of that traffic staying or coming off transit is a plus for downtown any way you look at. Yes, would rather see infill on every vacant lot, but a RAMS game probably gives some property owners enough parking evenue for the next tax bill. And realistically, I think making a deal happen for the dome might be help some stalled projects move forward and might help get the raised section I-70 torn down. Do you mortgage the future away, no. But I can't see how sending the RAMS packing for the burbs stimulates development downtown when you go and spend $700 to $900 million outside of the city.
Otherwise, the only great thing about the Fenton site is that Stan K has a captive paying audience from the moment everybody, I mean everybody who wants to go the game, drives off I-44 and pays for parking, pays for tailgating, pays Stan K vendors within the parking lot, pays a new ticket tax.
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If those events combined were asking for $700M on top of the $300M+ the city/county/state had already given them, then I wouldn't think they're a good idea other.dredger wrote:So are you suggestng that any large event shouldn't be downtown or central city. You could probably 6 to 8 other events that draw close or more then 60k with participants and observers alike
Race for the Cure
Go Marathon
St. Louis Faire
St. Patricks Parade
Music events.
I agree. I also all but completely doubt the final asking price from the city/county/state will be anywhere near 700 million. My guess is less than half of that.Alex Ihnen wrote:If those events combined were asking for $700M on top of the $300M+ the city/county/state had already given them, then I wouldn't think they're a good idea other.dredger wrote:So are you suggestng that any large event shouldn't be downtown or central city. You could probably 6 to 8 other events that draw close or more then 60k with participants and observers alike
Race for the Cure
Go Marathon
St. Louis Faire
St. Patricks Parade
Music events.
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^Let's hope. That could be done easily. NFL contributes $250M (hopefully) and the CVC contributes $100M ($80M of which they already have in the bank). If we can float $40 mil for the first phase of BPV, covering the $20M gap above shouldn't even be a blip on the radar. See, this isn't too hard is it?
Does anyone know why the renovation would be such a detriment to the convention business? Are there facilities actively used in the Dome portion that would cause the loss of business? I am not familiar enough with the cross-uses built into the Dome. From the outside, it doesn't appear that it would have much of an effect at all. Construction goes on all the time and doesn't cause these massive losses. The lost convention biz is kind of stumping me. Just having a hard time seeing why this would occur.
Does anyone know why the renovation would be such a detriment to the convention business? Are there facilities actively used in the Dome portion that would cause the loss of business? I am not familiar enough with the cross-uses built into the Dome. From the outside, it doesn't appear that it would have much of an effect at all. Construction goes on all the time and doesn't cause these massive losses. The lost convention biz is kind of stumping me. Just having a hard time seeing why this would occur.
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^ The largest conventions use the dome. Losing three conventions each year of 20-60K attendees, related hotel revenue, etc. is the concern.
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^Gotcha. Thanks, Alex.
Comicon is utilizing Petco Park in SD for the next convention. I wonder if there would be anyway to attempt to transfer some of these larger needs to Busch.
Has there been any mention of where the Rams would be playing during the proposed renovation? I would think that would have been included in their proposal but maybe not. If they were aggressive with construction schedule, I wonder if they could potentially construct during the offseason and then during the weeks of away games to mitigate the loss of conventions/Rams home games in the city. It would be a construction nightmare but would be pretty ingenuitive.
Do the big/structural stuff in the offseason and reno of bathrooms etc during away weeks? Just an idea.
Comicon is utilizing Petco Park in SD for the next convention. I wonder if there would be anyway to attempt to transfer some of these larger needs to Busch.
Has there been any mention of where the Rams would be playing during the proposed renovation? I would think that would have been included in their proposal but maybe not. If they were aggressive with construction schedule, I wonder if they could potentially construct during the offseason and then during the weeks of away games to mitigate the loss of conventions/Rams home games in the city. It would be a construction nightmare but would be pretty ingenuitive.
Do the big/structural stuff in the offseason and reno of bathrooms etc during away weeks? Just an idea.
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Best guess is they'd play at Illinois as the Bears did during Soldier Field retrofit. Maybe Lucas Oil? Only 4hrs away, maybe at Mizzou? or even KC?
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I'm guessing somewhere within those markets, whichever is ideal. Springfield would be a great location but they don't a stadium big enough.KEVIN DEMOFF: We have spent a lot off time tyring to grow the team regionally around St. Louis. This year, for the first time, our preseason games on the Rams Broadcast Network, will be available in 8 states, and within every television market within 250 miles of St. Louis _ including Springfield. Regional growth is paramount to our club's success.
Read more: http://live.stltoday.com/Event/Rams_cha ... z1vjNce29w
Louisville might be another great location, roughly 260 miles away, 1.3 million people, no professional sports teams and a stadium that sits around 60,000. They may have loyalties to the Colts and Bengals though.
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Kitty was just interviewed on KMOX. The CVC has just booked 2 short term conventions for the next year; Herbal Life(October ’12) & Capital Sports (February ’13), both bringing in over 17,000 in attendance.
What was highlighted in the interview is the fact that St. Louis landed these conventions because of the availability of the dome with the Rams being in London.
Brightside – If the Rams were to leave it would be a boon for our downtown convention business.
What was highlighted in the interview is the fact that St. Louis landed these conventions because of the availability of the dome with the Rams being in London.
Brightside – If the Rams were to leave it would be a boon for our downtown convention business.
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^ I'm all for the Rams moving to LA or London; the County can build a stadium in Fenton and lure in a new team to be called the Saint Louis TIFs.
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"Saint Louis TIFs"
Brilliant - and the sports analogies could go on and on...
Brilliant - and the sports analogies could go on and on...
Minneapolis city council gave tentative approval on Vikings Stadium. I think you can pretty much count them out of the race for LA.
I still think its a laughable position to claim that having the Rams proposal kept secret is somehow a better way to settle this thing. I know, its a moot point at this stage with both proposals on the table for all to see. Its going to get pretty interesting to see what arbitration decides and if and when the litigation will start.
I still think its a laughable position to claim that having the Rams proposal kept secret is somehow a better way to settle this thing. I know, its a moot point at this stage with both proposals on the table for all to see. Its going to get pretty interesting to see what arbitration decides and if and when the litigation will start.
Pretty much what everybody expected at this point, CVC rejects Rams proposal.
http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news ... -dome.html
http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news ... -dome.html
Really? because according to this articlenewstl2020 wrote:Really?I'm already looking for internships in Indianapolis in case this whole thing falls apart.
The unfounded fascination with Indianapolis is starting to get Portland-esque. Like it has become the promised land of the midwest. Indy is half the size of St. Louis AND FEELS LIKE IT. They are doing some good things but so is everywhere else. We were in Indy for the Big 10 Championship football game last year and across the board the experience was not enjoyed by the MANY people we spoke to. Granted we were with Wisconsin fans, but everyone was appalled at the utter lack of bars, restaurants, anything fun to do. It is HARD to find a bar in Indy.
http://www.indystar.com/article/2012021 ... dyStar.com
Downtown Indy is miles ahead of downtown St. Louis.
St. Louis could up their game and compete, but they're going to have to do things like update their convention center to do so.
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Having $3B in possible development underway or starting in the near future is great, but a massive chunk of that is medical related (~$2B) and another $450M is a JW Marriott hotel.
Anyway, back to the Rams (on STL Today):
I wonder how seriously the CVC or the Rams considered that all negotiations would be made public. It would appear that the communication between the CVC and Rams isn't good.In the public eye, the agency that runs the Edward Jones Dome presented on Feb. 1 a $124 million plan to renovate the building as part of its negotiations with the Rams, proposing to split the cost with the team.
But days earlier, that agency, the St. Louis Convention and Visitors Commission, had privately made the team a different offer: $48 million in publicly funded improvements to the Dome, with no obligation for the Rams to contribute.
The renovations would include a new 947-space parking garage, with the game-day revenue generated there going to the Rams.
The public cost of that plan might have been even higher because it also offered to shave five years off the Rams' 30-year lease of the Dome. The team, which pays $250,000 annually in rent, would have been able to leave the facility as early as 2020, instead of 2025.
The plan, sent to the Rams on Jan. 25, did not explain where the $48 million would come from. But it did spell out what the CVC wanted in return — for the Rams to waive a requirement in the lease that the Dome be a "first-tier" stadium by 2015.
Anyway, back to the Rams (on STL Today):
I wonder how seriously the CVC or the Rams considered that all negotiations would be made public. It would appear that the communication between the CVC and Rams isn't good.In the public eye, the agency that runs the Edward Jones Dome presented on Feb. 1 a $124 million plan to renovate the building as part of its negotiations with the Rams, proposing to split the cost with the team.
But days earlier, that agency, the St. Louis Convention and Visitors Commission, had privately made the team a different offer: $48 million in publicly funded improvements to the Dome, with no obligation for the Rams to contribute.
The renovations would include a new 947-space parking garage, with the game-day revenue generated there going to the Rams.
The public cost of that plan might have been even higher because it also offered to shave five years off the Rams' 30-year lease of the Dome. The team, which pays $250,000 annually in rent, would have been able to leave the facility as early as 2020, instead of 2025.
The plan, sent to the Rams on Jan. 25, did not explain where the $48 million would come from. But it did spell out what the CVC wanted in return — for the Rams to waive a requirement in the lease that the Dome be a "first-tier" stadium by 2015.
I'm curious about what specifically you base that on. It seemed like a simple low-ball first proposal that was cleanly and simply rejected as such. I'm personally not seeing any evidence of poor communication.Alex Ihnen wrote:Anyway, back to the Rams (on STL Today):
I wonder how seriously the CVC or the Rams considered that all negotiations would be made public. It would appear that the communication between the CVC and Rams isn't good.In the public eye, the agency that runs the Edward Jones Dome presented on Feb. 1 a $124 million plan to renovate the building as part of its negotiations with the Rams, proposing to split the cost with the team.
But days earlier, that agency, the St. Louis Convention and Visitors Commission, had privately made the team a different offer: $48 million in publicly funded improvements to the Dome, with no obligation for the Rams to contribute.
The renovations would include a new 947-space parking garage, with the game-day revenue generated there going to the Rams.
The public cost of that plan might have been even higher because it also offered to shave five years off the Rams' 30-year lease of the Dome. The team, which pays $250,000 annually in rent, would have been able to leave the facility as early as 2020, instead of 2025.
The plan, sent to the Rams on Jan. 25, did not explain where the $48 million would come from. But it did spell out what the CVC wanted in return — for the Rams to waive a requirement in the lease that the Dome be a "first-tier" stadium by 2015.
For what it's worth, Rams' owner Stan Kroenke is currently working with the CVC on other fronts; his company THF Realty is currently in talks with CVC Commissioner Bob O'Loughlin about possibly purchasing nearby Union Station.
Further, for whatever it's worth, both Kitty Ratcliffe and Rams' VP Kevin Demoff continue to stress that the Rams and CVC have had an excellent working relationship, and will continue to do so, Kevin as recently as yesterday in his online chat with Rams fans.
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Uh, of course both sides say that they have "an excellent working relationship" - who would it serve to remark anything other than that? And "Kroenke is currently working with the CVC..." and "his company THF Realty is currently in talks with CVC Commissioner Bob O'Laughlin about possibly purchasing nearby Union Station" are ENTIRELY different things. What do I know, but IMO the Rams putting forth a secret proposal that was so quickly and summarily rejected shows that the communication isn't good enough for the CVC to have a clear idea what the Rams want.
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I've been a charter PSL season ticket holder since the Rams moved here in 1995. I renewed again for the coming year. But if the Rams and CVC can't come to some kind of agreement by December, I will take that to mean that the Rams are not showing any commitment to St. Louis. If they don't show commitment to the city with an agreement, I will end my commitment and I will not renew my PSL for 2013 or 2014.
The Rams do have options -- it is not just the up to CVC and the arbiter. The Rams can short-circuit this process and go to a whole new contractual agreement that replaces the current one at any time.
There are lot of hints that the Rams are not going to negotiate seriously. 1) Local sportscasters are hearing that the Rams want a year-to-year lease. 2) The Rams proposed an over-the-top nearly new stadium to ensure that CVC would reject it, a necessary step to ending the lease. 3) On the Kevin Demoff Chat this week, a training camp worker asked Kevin about the rumours that he would be going to Philadelphia. 4) Kevin cautioned that lease negotiations can often go several years. (His job may be to string along us fans at least through the 2014 season with protracted negotiations. Otherwise, fans will bail for the 2013 and 2014 seasons.)
Stan said that he has committed serious "jack" to St. Louis in buying the Rams. But he has a billion dollar asset to show for it. We PSL holders haven't gotten any return for our "jack" for the last 5 years.
The Rams do have options -- it is not just the up to CVC and the arbiter. The Rams can short-circuit this process and go to a whole new contractual agreement that replaces the current one at any time.
There are lot of hints that the Rams are not going to negotiate seriously. 1) Local sportscasters are hearing that the Rams want a year-to-year lease. 2) The Rams proposed an over-the-top nearly new stadium to ensure that CVC would reject it, a necessary step to ending the lease. 3) On the Kevin Demoff Chat this week, a training camp worker asked Kevin about the rumours that he would be going to Philadelphia. 4) Kevin cautioned that lease negotiations can often go several years. (His job may be to string along us fans at least through the 2014 season with protracted negotiations. Otherwise, fans will bail for the 2013 and 2014 seasons.)
Stan said that he has committed serious "jack" to St. Louis in buying the Rams. But he has a billion dollar asset to show for it. We PSL holders haven't gotten any return for our "jack" for the last 5 years.
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I've been going to the games since 95 as well. It's getting very difficult to remain emotionally invested in this team.gary kreie wrote:I've been a charter PSL season ticket holder since the Rams moved here in 1995. I renewed again for the coming year. But if the Rams and CVC can't come to some kind of agreement by December, I will take that to mean that the Rams are not showing any commitment to St. Louis. If they don't show commitment to the city with an agreement, I will end my commitment and I will not renew my PSL for 2013 or 2014.
Hopefully you find the experience enjoyable. Winning isn't a prerequisite, just ask fellow Cub fans.gary kreie wrote:Stan said that he has committed serious "jack" to St. Louis in buying the Rams. But he has a billion dollar asset to show for it. We PSL holders haven't gotten any return for our "jack" for the last 5 years.