JuanHamez wrote:This should be required reading for every single elected official and public servant in our metro area... because it has already been read by just about everybody in Washington DC:
How municipalities in St. Louis County, Missouri profit from poverty
There are 90 municipalities in St. Louis County, and more in the surrounding counties. All but a few have their own police force, mayor, city manager, and town council, and 81 have their own municipal court. To put that into perspective, consider Jackson County, Missouri, which surrounds Kansas City. It is geographically larger than St. Louis County and has about two-thirds the population. Yet Jackson County has just 19 municipalities, and just 15 municipal courts — less than a quarter of municipalities and courts in St. Louis County.
Some of the towns in St. Louis County can derive 40 percent or more of their annual revenue from the petty fines and fees collected by their municipal courts.
Another interesting section from that same article:
In nearly all the towns in St. Louis County, the prosecutors and judges in these courts are part-time positions, and are not elected, but appointed by the mayor, town council, or city manager. According to a recent white paper published by the ArchCity Defenders, the chief prosecutor in Florissant Municipal Court makes $56,060 per year. It’s a position that requires him to work 12 court sessions per year, at about three hours per session. The Florissant prosecutor is Ronald Brockmeyer, who also has a criminal defense practice in St. Charles County, and who is also the chief municipal prosecutor for the towns of Vinita Park and Dellwood. He is also the judge – yes, the judge — in both Ferguson and Breckenridge Hills. Brockmeyer isn’t alone: Several other attorneys serve as prosecutor in one town and judge in another. And at least one St. Louis County assistant district attorney is also a municipal court judge.....Many of the appointed judges and prosecutors not only don’t reside in the jurisdictions they serve, they have very little in common with the people who do......Vatterott acknowledges the problem, but says there isn’t much to be done about it. “These aren’t elected positions. They’re appointed by the mayor and city council. And the people appointed to these positions have to be attorneys. In some of these towns, you just don’t have very many attorneys. The towns also aren’t big enough for the positions to be full-time, so you have to look to private lawyers who can fill the positions part-time.”
....
DOJ is launching an investigation into policing in the region.... hopefully this will help lead to real change as obviously the system is f'd up and so far I haven't seen any willingness to change on their own. I can't exactly say how things will go down if no homicide charges are filed against Officer Wilson (and it looks like the betting money is on no charges), but I do believe they will be worse if the same clowns like the Ferguson chief are still in place.... the initial unrest very well could be just a warm-up. Leaders need to act with urgency and I just ain't seeing it.
roger wyoming II wrote:DOJ is launching an investigation into policing in the region.... hopefully this will help lead to real change as obviously the system is f'd up and so far I haven't seen any willingness to change on their own. I can't exactly say how things will go down if no homicide charges are filed against Officer Wilson (and it looks like the betting money is on no charges), but I do believe they will be worse if the same clowns like the Ferguson chief are still in place.... the initial unrest very well could be just a warm-up. Leaders need to act with urgency and I just ain't seeing it.
"Jay Nixon fiddled while Ferguson burned" may be the updated version of the Nero and Rome story.
^Hardly fair to Nixon, not that the national media ever is.
I mean what realistically did you expect from him. He gave wide berth to protesters. He let local authorities handle it. There was riots and violence. St. Louis County got involved he gave them a chance to get it under control. More violence. He elevated it to the Missouri Highway patrol. More violence. He called in the national guard. He didn't have a solution in his back pocket but he responded to each event with measured escalation. To say he fiddled is to say he ignored the situation.
That said it may have dashed any hopes he had of being Hilliary's VP nominee.
goat314 wrote:^ Bosnians still own a lot of property in the city and rent it out to newcomers. Its almost a right of passage for many Bosnians to live in south city when they first arrive.
I also wouldnt be surprised if we get another major wave of Bosnians considering whats going down in Eastern Europe. Bosnians have told me that St. Louis actually has name recognition in the country as the American home base for Bosnians.
As to Bosnians moving to South County and even Jefferson County, isn't a part of that just the number that arrived here is more than what the areas they moved to in South City could hold, so they had to find other places to move into? And I think a number are those who were in other parts of the US and moved here, I would be curious how many is that. And now you might be getting new households forming from those that arrived here as children and those born here are getting close to adulthood.
STLEnginerd wrote:^Hardly fair to Nixon, not that the national media ever is.
Nixon's star likely would have been much brighter had not Chief Jackson stoked anger and passion by releasing the Michael Brown store video in the manner (and timing) that he did. The question is whether this was a deliberate strike back against the new Sheriff in town (Capt. Johnson and MHSP) or just plain stupidity.
imperialmog wrote:
As to Bosnians moving to South County and even Jefferson County, isn't a part of that just the number that arrived here is more than what the areas they moved to in South City could hold, so they had to find other places to move into? And I think a number are those who were in other parts of the US and moved here, I would be curious how many is that. And now you might be getting new households forming from those that arrived here as children and those born here are getting close to adulthood.
From what I understand, a lot of Bosnians from Des Moines, Iowa, Bowling Green, Kentucky, and Chicago have been moving to St. Louis, as the community here is thriving much more so than those that were settled in the first two or already lived in Chicago.
Saint.Louis could be the next big lego game.
Lets see how we can build a better Saint.Louis starting with Legos
Maybe then we'll become hip like Kansas City
Hey, until St. Louis changes it'll continue to be an easy target going forward. The more dirty laundry the better. These are pressing times for the region, where is the sense of urgency?
We're slow growth, immigrants are barely keeping us afloat, we have 90 munis many without any real tax base. Retail is continually going the way of amazon.com, and what retail we do have we play TIF wars with and musical chairs. We can't afford the land we ate up in the pursuit of sprawl. And people continue to get in a defensive bubble whenever these issues are looked at through the lens of race.
St. Louis can't sit on its hands and wait this out. What's the longterm vision? What can we get done by this time next year? 5 years? 15?
The craziest thing about this Ferguson tragedy is that it is NOT over and the negative impacts this has had on our region has not been felt yet. Conventions that have already made plans in St. Louis have already booked rooms and made arrangements, what about conventions and events that not have made arrangements yet? What if a choice comes down to St. Louis and Minneapolis/Denver/Indianapolis/Kansas City etc., where would you chose? A place that just had a major riot and social unrest revolving around race and inequality, or a young, vibrant, clean region with friendly facade?
The whole world is watching this region to see how we will respond to this tragedy. The Washington Post and LA Times in particular (two of the most read publications in the U.S.) have written very unflattering editorials about the government fragmentation, racial polarization, and major income inequality in the region. Not to say that many other regions don't deal with very similar things, but unfortunately we were "that" powder keg that erupted on Aug. 9th, 2014.
St. Louis has two choices now, we can have an Atlanta moment and be a model about how a city can raise from the ashes and create a new identity for itself or we can take the Detroit route and let racial turmoil and social unrest rip us to shreds.
Anyone white who lives in the area might as well wear full KKK uniforms.
I don't see what's especially controversial about that article, and I really don't see anything that would warrant such a defensive hot take. I thought it prevented a balanced and factually sound assessment of the way politics and race intersect. I agree with arch_genesis. Care to elaborate about certain parts that made you feel that way?
goat314 wrote:St. Louis has two choices now, we can have an Atlanta moment and be a model about how a city can raise from the ashes and create a new identity for itself or we can take the Detroit route and let racial turmoil and social unrest rip us to shreds.
I'd bet on the latter. People really don't seem to want to deal with these things. It's either "it's THEIR problem!" or "there's nothing we can do about it."
^ Unfortunately, I feel the same way. I just don't think St. Louis is up for the task of being a first class region or even a respectable region at this point. I actually think it would take outside forces (feds or states) to force any type of structural change in the region. St. Louisans are just too set in their ways to change what is necessary.
Atlanta is one of the worse Black/White segregated and crime ridden cities in the US. Their game changer was immigration.
SO, Mayor Slay is pushing and pushing immigration. We have one of the largest GLBT communities in the US, the largest Bosnian community in the US, A large and rapidly growing Indian population and growing Asian population. Latinos are behind in the metro area compared to other large cities.
The black community has to change first and foremost in STL. The black community crime is off the hook. This does not help race relations/acceptance or peace. When I heard that less than 20 percent of the Ferguson black community voted for their govn't officials (and police) in a 'burb with more than 80 percent black majority - that is just NOT ganna change anything. I know they don't "trust" their govn't and police --- but without VOTE there will be NO change. The same people will control and abuse the system of power.
The black community should be protesting and outraged at the fact that their community had 6 murders in 24 hours. But, nothing is done. When you have ideals of "No snitching", then you cannot put blame on others.
I mean seriously, if Chesterfield was fighting their police department (like Ferguson is)... they would have to get out and VOTE and CHANGE the community itself.
I will agree that if we DO NOT DISSOLVE the city and county borders and find a way to meld the 90 burs together - there will not be any change amongst the ideals of city/county // black/white
What I been wondering the past few days (mostly killing boredom by reading city data forums) I wonder would the The African Americans begin to leave the St Louis metro area especial the middle class or wealthy. Los Angeles (and metropolitan area) in terms of numbers and percentage loss a huge amount of African Americans during the decades after the L.A. riots, this alone could easy send our region into negative growth. Is the chance of this happening possible in St Louis????
There really is no reason to leave your homes and families. If you VOTE and get out and address the issues in your community then you should be able to change.
After 6 murders in STL in 24 hours this last Thursday - those were headlines everywhere. All black on black. The black community has got to stand up and change their community now before it is too late!
matguy70 wrote:So what "changes" does STL need to do?
We keep hearing it - but what are they?
Atlanta is one of the worse Black/White segregated and crime ridden cities in the US. Their game changer was immigration.
SO, Mayor Slay is pushing and pushing immigration. We have one of the largest GLBT communities in the US, the largest Bosnian community in the US, A large and rapidly growing Indian population and growing Asian population. Latinos are behind in the metro area compared to other large cities.
The black community has to change first and foremost in STL. The black community crime is off the hook. This does not help race relations/acceptance or peace. When I heard that less than 20 percent of the Ferguson black community voted for their govn't officials (and police) in a 'burb with more than 80 percent black majority - that is just NOT gonna change anything. I know they don't "trust" their govn't and police --- but without VOTE there will be NO change. The same people will control and abuse the system of power.
The black community should be protesting and outraged at the fact that their community had 6 murders in 24 hours. But, nothing is done. When you have ideals of "No snitching", then you cannot put blame on others.
I mean seriously, if Chesterfield was fighting their police department (like Ferguson is)... they would have to get out and VOTE and CHANGE the community itself.
Agree 100 % Atalanta, Dallas and Houston are just a segregated as St. Louis Maybe even more. But those three have faster growing economies that keeps the people happy.
matguy70 wrote:So what "changes" does STL need to do?
We keep hearing it - but what are they?
Atlanta is one of the worse Black/White segregated and crime ridden cities in the US. Their game changer was immigration.
SO, Mayor Slay is pushing and pushing immigration. We have one of the largest GLBT communities in the US, the largest Bosnian community in the US, A large and rapidly growing Indian population and growing Asian population. Latinos are behind in the metro area compared to other large cities.
The black community has to change first and foremost in STL. The black community crime is off the hook. This does not help race relations/acceptance or peace. When I heard that less than 20 percent of the Ferguson black community voted for their govn't officials (and police) in a 'burb with more than 80 percent black majority - that is just NOT ganna change anything. I know they don't "trust" their govn't and police --- but without VOTE there will be NO change. The same people will control and abuse the system of power.
The black community should be protesting and outraged at the fact that their community had 6 murders in 24 hours. But, nothing is done. When you have ideals of "No snitching", then you cannot put blame on others.
I mean seriously, if Chesterfield was fighting their police department (like Ferguson is)... they would have to get out and VOTE and CHANGE the community itself.
So a few gang bangers and drug gangs in the city's poorest neighborhoods define the "black community" of St. Louis? WOW!
Also, the idea that every black person in St. Louis should somehow be ashamed or outraged whenever a criminal, they are just as scared of as the average law abiding white person, commits a crime is in itself a racist notion. Nobody asks white people to take accountability when Wall St. rips off the American people, or a crazed lunatic goes into a school and starts shooting up little kids, so why aren't law abiding black Americans given the same privilege. As far as I'm concerned it is everybody's problem or nobodies problem, you cant have it both ways.
matguy70 wrote:So what "changes" does STL need to do?
We keep hearing it - but what are they?
Atlanta is one of the worse Black/White segregated and crime ridden cities in the US. Their game changer was immigration.
SO, Mayor Slay is pushing and pushing immigration. We have one of the largest GLBT communities in the US, the largest Bosnian community in the US, A large and rapidly growing Indian population and growing Asian population. Latinos are behind in the metro area compared to other large cities.
The black community has to change first and foremost in STL. The black community crime is off the hook. This does not help race relations/acceptance or peace. When I heard that less than 20 percent of the Ferguson black community voted for their govn't officials (and police) in a 'burb with more than 80 percent black majority - that is just NOT gonna change anything. I know they don't "trust" their govn't and police --- but without VOTE there will be NO change. The same people will control and abuse the system of power.
The black community should be protesting and outraged at the fact that their community had 6 murders in 24 hours. But, nothing is done. When you have ideals of "No snitching", then you cannot put blame on others.
I mean seriously, if Chesterfield was fighting their police department (like Ferguson is)... they would have to get out and VOTE and CHANGE the community itself.
Agree 100 % Atalanta, Dallas and Houston are just a segregated as St. Louis Maybe even more. But those three have faster growing economies that keeps the people happy.
The "racial segregation" we have in St. Louis is rather trivial to me, because you cant change people's hearts or force people to live around people of different cultures. In fact, New York and Chicago are considerably more segregated than St. Louis but nobody brings them up as racist places. I think the big problem we have in St. Louis is our fragmented government system that makes everything Black St. Louis vs. White St. Louis and impedes our ability to make sound decisions and bring jobs to the area that will help income inequality.
Agree 100 % Atalanta, Dallas and Houston are just a segregated as St. Louis Maybe even more. But those three have faster growing economies that keeps the people happy.
Atlanta, Dallas, and Houston also didn't lose 60% of their population (and counting) in a 50 year span like St. Louis did. As you said, it's about economic growth and opportunities. That might be an oversimplification, but I believe that unless the region finds some way to increase jobs and economic prosperity that includes ALL segments of the population, nothing can change.
I can't say what the national opinion is. As someone who visits St. Louis a few times a year, and 3 times this summer, the whole Ferguson issue hasn't effected us. We come from I-55 South so we never go to North County anyway.
Around where I live a lot of people think cities (not just St. Louis) are dangerous and crowded and they see no reason to live there. That's probably why those people live in the country.
I don't know what happened in the Michael Brown case. I hope justice is served either way. That said, we hear statistics about African Americans shooting each other, but it never really makes the news. So why is that okay? Also, as far as all or most Ferguson police being White, you have to look at who applied for the job and was qualified. Requiring colleges and employers (or anyone else) to take a certain percentage of each race has always annoyed me. They should take the best candidates, regardless of race or gender or sexual orientation.
Anyone white who lives in the area might as well wear full KKK uniforms.
I don't see what's especially controversial about that article, and I really don't see anything that would warrant such a defensive hot take. I thought it prevented a balanced and factually sound assessment of the way politics and race intersect. I agree with arch_genesis. Care to elaborate about certain parts that made you feel that way?
I don't think the article (or others) is off base. I just guess we're in for a long stretch "All white people in St. Louis are bad and racist" browbeating by the national media.
