St Louis Homeless and Panhandlers

doug · PostFeb 15, 2007#4762007-02-15T04:11+00:00

Now, I may be an a**hole, but we have this concept of "equity," and "human rights." While I find the homeless problem quite high on the agenda, we shouldn't be sending them to Treblinka.

We need jobs and training programs. We need other municipalities to actually take up the problem themselves, rather than sending them to our City. We need regional cooperation not dehumanization.

Well this begins with an angry Mayor, not simply one blog post. Lets not forget the 10 Year Plan which is clearly, like many of our plans, is gathering dust and not enforced.

Slay, lets see more of this:

Drop a deuce on the floor of Northwoods' City Council Chambers. Irene Smith could probably instruct you in the proper procedure for effective civil disobedience.

Mayor Slay: takes no sh*t from no bitches but really hands it out!

...and he thinks your an a**hole!

Hey, its better than silence.

luftmensch · PostFeb 15, 2007#4772007-02-15T04:29+00:00

We need a statewide policy.

Illinois passed a law in 2003 called "The Affordable Housing Planning and Appeal Act" that sets a target of 10% affordable housing for every municipality in the state. If an Illinois city doesn't reach the 10% minimum, then it's required to develop a plan for achieving that goal.

Can you imagine this in Clayton or Ladue?

doug · PostFeb 15, 2007#4782007-02-15T04:38+00:00

Luftmensch wrote:We need a statewide policy.

Can you imagine this in Clayton or Ladue?

No and that's why it won't happen. I don't expect Clayton or Ladue to play ball but our inner ring less affluent areas certianly have an incentive to work with us.

jcity · PostFeb 15, 2007#4792007-02-15T04:54+00:00

Can you imagine this in Clayton or Ladue?

No, and no city should be "required" to either. What is this socialist Europe? It all sounds nice and neat, but funding programs such as St. Patrick's center is far more appealing to me. More "programs" and more "housing" is NOT the answer. sorry.

threeonefour · PostFeb 15, 2007#4802007-02-15T06:08+00:00

publiceye wrote:There are certainly some problems in the city. New Life is one of them.

And what does the mayor, or other city leaders, intend to do about it?

I think we can all agree that St. Louis County and other counties in the region could do much more, since the city bears much of the region's social services burden.

debaliviere · PostFeb 15, 2007#4812007-02-15T17:04+00:00

Wow...

http://www.mayorslay.com/desk/display.asp?deskID=641

Late last month, City police officers responded to a call at the downtown bus station where they met a very frightened man. He said that he had just been discharged from the State Hospital in Farmington, and that a hospital van had dropped him at the bus station. He had a couple of boxes of belongings, no money, and no idea why he had been left at the station.

doug · PostFeb 15, 2007#4822007-02-15T17:16+00:00

Nice. Now Slay needs to get angry.

innov8ion · PostFeb 15, 2007#4832007-02-15T17:26+00:00

Ever taken an economics class and learned about Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Hand

Let's not create some law forcing all municipalities to have x% "affordable housing." Some areas are more affluent than others. Ever notice that housing is cheaper in South City and other areas? If people need affordable housing, there are areas to move to that have it. Or if market forces cause new affordable housing to be built in a given area, fine. Let's just not create new laws that will hurt more than help.

I think either the municipalities in the suburbs should provide the necessary public services or provide money to the city to pay for it. I don't know what came of this, but in 1993, Atlanta requested support from the suburbs in regards to shoulder the homeless problem. http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/ ... tory4.html

thewayofthearch · PostFeb 15, 2007#4842007-02-15T17:29+00:00

This shouldn't be done at a municipal level regardless. This should be a a county level. The city is also a county, making it seem as though its municipal, but as a homeless issue is generally not stationary it needs to be done on a larger level of government.

Having requirements for each of the 95+ municipalities in STLCounty alone would require county oversight, anyway, and another unneccessary level of red tape/beuracracy.

The county would have the ability to spend, direct, and organize without the localized interests/concerns/complaints of the myriad municipal governments interfereing.

innov8ion · PostFeb 15, 2007#4852007-02-15T17:39+00:00

DeBaliviere wrote:Wow...

http://www.mayorslay.com/desk/display.asp?deskID=641

Late last month, City police officers responded to a call at the downtown bus station where they met a very frightened man. He said that he had just been discharged from the State Hospital in Farmington, and that a hospital van had dropped him at the bus station. He had a couple of boxes of belongings, no money, and no idea why he had been left at the station.

Overall, the 10 year plan looked good. It's a year and a half later. What was completed, what was not? What were the stumbling blocks?

The City needs to lead implementation of the plan. St. Louis County needs to buck up and assist the city. Enough is enough.

- 10 year plan description: http://www.mayorslay.com/news/display.asp?prID=139

- PDF: http://stlouis.missouri.org/citygov/may ... arPlan.pdf

doug · PostFeb 15, 2007#4862007-02-15T17:40+00:00

innov8ion wrote:Ever taken an economics class and learned about Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Hand

Let's not create some law forcing all municipalities to have x% "affordable housing." Some areas are more affluent than others. Ever notice that housing is cheaper in South City and other areas? If people need affordable housing, there are areas to move to that have it. Or if market forces cause new affordable housing to be built in a given area, fine. Let's just not create new laws that will hurt more than help.

I think either the municipalities in the suburbs should provide the necessary public services or provide money to the city to pay for it. I don't know what came of this, but in 1993, Atlanta requested support from the suburbs in regards to shoulder the homeless problem. http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/ ... tory4.html

Areas are more affluent than others because of de facto and de jure regulation through land use controls or redlining all of which are inherently against the natural evolution of the Market System. The suburbs and their discriminatory aspects were created through government regulation. Only through regulation can the problems be redressed. The Market didn't create suburbia nor will it produce equality of opportunity for those who are actively denied it.

southcitygent · PostFeb 15, 2007#4872007-02-15T18:29+00:00

Instead of just writing about this problem why don't you step up and be part of the solution? The Centenary Cares Drop in Center located in the downtown Methodist church could use volunteers to help out serving lunch Monday through Saturday. This is one of the programs the city and downtown businesses leaders have partnered with to provide long term solutions.

innov8ion · PostFeb 15, 2007#4882007-02-15T18:38+00:00

Doug wrote:
innov8ion wrote:Ever taken an economics class and learned about Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Hand

Let's not create some law forcing all municipalities to have x% "affordable housing." Some areas are more affluent than others. Ever notice that housing is cheaper in South City and other areas? If people need affordable housing, there are areas to move to that have it. Or if market forces cause new affordable housing to be built in a given area, fine. Let's just not create new laws that will hurt more than help.

I think either the municipalities in the suburbs should provide the necessary public services or provide money to the city to pay for it. I don't know what came of this, but in 1993, Atlanta requested support from the suburbs in regards to shoulder the homeless problem. http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/ ... tory4.html

Areas are more affluent than others because of de facto and de jure regulation through land use controls or redlining all of which are inherently against the natural evolution of the Market System. The suburbs and their discriminatory aspects were created through government regulation. Only through regulation can the problems be redressed. The Market didn't create suburbia nor will it produce equality of opportunity for those who are actively denied it.

Equality of opportunity? What? Last time I checked we have equal opportunity laws.

Prove how regulation causes some suburbs to be affluent and some to be poor. I want to hear your argument.

doug · PostFeb 15, 2007#4892007-02-15T18:44+00:00

innov8ion wrote:
Doug wrote:
innov8ion wrote:Ever taken an economics class and learned about Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Hand

Let's not create some law forcing all municipalities to have x% "affordable housing." Some areas are more affluent than others. Ever notice that housing is cheaper in South City and other areas? If people need affordable housing, there are areas to move to that have it. Or if market forces cause new affordable housing to be built in a given area, fine. Let's just not create new laws that will hurt more than help.

I think either the municipalities in the suburbs should provide the necessary public services or provide money to the city to pay for it. I don't know what came of this, but in 1993, Atlanta requested support from the suburbs in regards to shoulder the homeless problem. http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/ ... tory4.html

Areas are more affluent than others because of de facto and de jure regulation through land use controls or redlining all of which are inherently against the natural evolution of the Market System. The suburbs and their discriminatory aspects were created through government regulation. Only through regulation can the problems be redressed. The Market didn't create suburbia nor will it produce equality of opportunity for those who are actively denied it.
Equality of opportunity? What? Last time I checked we have equal opportunity laws.

Prove how regulation causes some suburbs to be affluent and some to be poor. I want to hear your argument.

It's called zoning. Why do you think there are so many incorporations in St. Louis County? To keep the City from annexing unincorporated land or to prevent developers from doing high density. Black Jack incorporated to prevent low income housing from being built. Many were quoted in the Post Dispatch as not wanting blacks in their neighborhood.

The fundamental premise for zoning, from its inception in Manhattan, was to keep the "rif raff" out. This is against the market system.

innov8ion · PostFeb 15, 2007#4902007-02-15T18:47+00:00

^ So explain how zoning made Ladue rich and North City poor. And last time I checked, poor people come in all colors. Also, citizens should be able to decide how their land is to be used / zoned. Who are you to tell Ladue how they should govern?

stldtfan · PostFeb 16, 2007#4912007-02-16T02:25+00:00

southcitygent wrote:Instead of just writing about this problem why don't you step up and be part of the solution? The Centenary Cares Drop in Center located in the downtown Methodist church could use volunteers to help out serving lunch Monday through Saturday. This is one of the programs the city and downtown businesses leaders have partnered with to provide long term solutions.

VERY constructive. I have some things I can (and will) donate here. Finding time to volunteer is much more difficult, though this would be a good choice.

Now things like these are the best that come out of this forum. Thanks southcityagent.

southcitygent · PostFeb 16, 2007#4922007-02-16T16:01+00:00

Thank you for the kind comment.

steve · PostFeb 16, 2007#4932007-02-16T16:37+00:00

TheWayoftheArch wrote:The city is also a county,

Actually it isn't. The city is neither in nor does it constitute a county. It does act like one, I'll give you that, but it isn't legally a county.

brickandmortar · PostFeb 16, 2007#4942007-02-16T17:41+00:00

Actually the City is its own county, that's why there are elected offices like Sheriff, License Collector, etc.

steve · PostFeb 16, 2007#4952007-02-16T17:43+00:00

No, it's not. Yes, it does have officials who otherwise are "county" officers, but it is not, in fact, a county. Like I said, it just acts like one, because, well, somebody has to collect property taxes, keep the circuit court records, record deeds, etc. But there is no such thing as "St. Louis City County."

brickandmortar · PostFeb 16, 2007#4962007-02-16T17:50+00:00

Simply because County is not in its name doesn't mean it doesn't function like one. Whether you call us a parish, county or city, there is another layer of St. Louis City goverment acting on a 'county' government level.

thewayofthearch · PostFeb 16, 2007#4972007-02-16T17:50+00:00

Yes, thats why we are an "Independent City".

Still, looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, walks like a duck...it's probably a duck.

threeonefour · PostFeb 16, 2007#4982007-02-16T17:56+00:00

brickandmortar wrote:Simply because County is not in its name doesn't mean it doesn't function like one. Whether you call us a parish, county or city, there is another layer of St. Louis City goverment acting on a 'county' government level.

Exactly. Like Baltimore and several small Virginia cities, we're an independent city. San Francisco and Denver function similarly and also have frozen boundaries, but they are "City and County of ______" entities.

doug · PostFeb 16, 2007#4992007-02-16T18:20+00:00

Regarding zoning, segregation, and working against the market:

Look at why Black Jack incorporated in 1970 and you will find answers to your queries.

buckethead · PostFeb 16, 2007#5002007-02-16T18:20+00:00

brickandmortar wrote:Simply because County is not in its name doesn't mean it doesn't function like one. Whether you call us a parish, county or city, there is another layer of St. Louis City goverment acting on a 'county' government level.

And simply because the city has "elected offices like Sheriff, License Collector, etc" doesn't mean the city is also a county.

It is not.

St Louis Homeless and Panhandlers

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