From what I can tell, everyone on this forum supports places like the St. Patrick Center, but has a huge distaste for Jerry Rice's NLEC. His little "kingdom" should be shut down, or moved elsewhere.
His little "kingdom" should be shut down, or moved elsewhere
Thanks. Now it's unanimous. Please explain "by whom" and "how" -- and "with what." Also, "where."
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^ I'll answer your question with a couple of questions:
First, why does the NLEC get a free pass from the city? And why are our city's cops copping out on enforcing curfew and panhandling laws?
It isn't like the NLEC building has ever been in compliance with all city codes...
First, why does the NLEC get a free pass from the city? And why are our city's cops copping out on enforcing curfew and panhandling laws?
It isn't like the NLEC building has ever been in compliance with all city codes...
First, why does the NLEC get a free pass from the city? And why are our city's cops copping out on enforcing curfew and panhandling laws?
First, it does not. New Life's gets exactly the same code enforcement as do other such facilities. It has been cited by inspectors for dozens of violations; it has addressed many of the complaints, adding doors, detectors, and sprinklers.
Second, they aren't. St. Louis police officers have a variety of duties, including the enforcement of municipal ordinances. They tend, however, to spend more time enforcing laws that affect public safety and which are more likely to result in actual judicial action.
The City's code enforcement and its enforcement of panhandling/loitering/trespassing ordinances against New Life and its residents have been the subject of repeated and expensive lawsuits filed by lawyers working at local legal clinics.
I am unaware of any adult curfew ordinances in the City, but -- then again -- I'm usually in bed by the time Colbert finishes.
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St. Louis Reports a Dramatic Reduction in Number of Homeless People City Secures $8.45 Million Grant From HUD to Expand its Efforts
ST. LOUIS – Mayor Francis G. Slay will join Human Services Director Bill Siedhoff and U.S. Housing & Urban Development (HUD) officials on Tuesday, February 27, 2007, at 2:00 p.m. to report a dramatic reduction in the number of homeless people as well as an $8.45 million U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development grant to provide shelter, transitional and permanent housing, and services to individuals and families.
In August, 2005, Mayor Slay set a goal of ending chronic homelessness within ten years. In combination with St. Louis County, he created a ten-year plan that changed the focus from temporary shelter to the provision of permanent housing and support services.
I find it hard to believe that lawyers would "repeatedly" file lawsuits over this. I would rather think they would file a lawsuit if they could extract some money. In my memory, only one major settlement was made a couple of years back, which seems to have scared the city in doing something about this problem. Please note I am NOT saying this is incorrect, only that I find it hard to believe.publiceye wrote:First, why does the NLEC get a free pass from the city? And why are our city's cops copping out on enforcing curfew and panhandling laws?
First, it does not. New Life's gets exactly the same code enforcement as do other such facilities. It has been cited by inspectors for dozens of violations; it has addressed many of the complaints, adding doors, detectors, and sprinklers.
Second, they aren't. St. Louis police officers have a variety of duties, including the enforcement of municipal ordinances. They tend, however, to spend more time enforcing laws that affect public safety and which are more likely to result in actual judicial action.
The City's code enforcement and its enforcement of panhandling/loitering/trespassing ordinances against New Life and its residents have been the subject of repeated and expensive lawsuits filed by lawyers working at local legal clinics.
I am unaware of any adult curfew ordinances in the City, but -- then again -- I'm usually in bed by the time Colbert finishes.
Now, the whole point of a LOT of people in this forum (my interpretation) is that if NLEC is serious about helping the homeless and NOT about making a political statement, then they could do this a few blocks over after selling the existing building and using that money to help the poor even more. Holding the city and residents (those who are trying to help the city gain more residents) hostage helps NO ONE. Please tell me what's the point of converting a beautiul city park into an open air toilet? Would it not be better to work with the Mayor and city and TRULY try to work the problem?
bsharmastl wrote:I find it hard to believe that lawyers would "repeatedly" file lawsuits over this. I would rather think they would file a lawsuit if they could extract some money.
Well, I think publiceye was talking about law clinic lawyers and those working pro bono publico (although it could be argued the public good is best served in other ways.
I see what you mean. I had not thought of that.steve wrote:bsharmastl wrote:I find it hard to believe that lawyers would "repeatedly" file lawsuits over this. I would rather think they would file a lawsuit if they could extract some money.
Well, I think publiceye was talking about law clinic lawyers and those working pro bono publico (although it could be argued the public good is best served in other ways.
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bsharmastl wrote:I see what you mean. I had not thought of that.steve wrote:bsharmastl wrote:I find it hard to believe that lawyers would "repeatedly" file lawsuits over this. I would rather think they would file a lawsuit if they could extract some money.
Well, I think publiceye was talking about law clinic lawyers and those working pro bono publico (although it could be argued the public good is best served in other ways.
Think ACLU.
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publiceye wrote:First, it does not. New Life's gets exactly the same code enforcement as do other such facilities. It has been cited by inspectors for dozens of violations; it has addressed many of the complaints, adding doors, detectors, and sprinklers.
Second, they aren't. St. Louis police officers have a variety of duties, including the enforcement of municipal ordinances. They tend, however, to spend more time enforcing laws that affect public safety and which are more likely to result in actual judicial action.
The City's code enforcement and its enforcement of panhandling/loitering/trespassing ordinances against New Life and its residents have been the subject of repeated and expensive lawsuits filed by lawyers working at local legal clinics.
Fair enough. But when can we expect city government to acknowledge- and actually do something- about the deplorable condition of Lucas Park?
It seems like once these people are off Rice's premises, their right to loiter and do God-knows-what in the park should be trumped by the general public's right to a clean and safe environment in a public park. Many of downtown's problems with loitering, panhandling, and other petty crimes can be traced back to this specific gathering spot. Are residents and visitors just supposed to suck it up and deal with it? Or are they wrong to expect better from the city?
Many of downtown's problems with loitering, panhandling, and other petty crimes can be traced back to this specific gathering spot.
I've lived within five blocks of that park for fifteen years. It's been much worse; rarely, better.
I think New Life runs a horrible operation, but its right to be there is as strong -- and as qualified -- as any property owner's. Its presence on that site pre-dates me -- and most (all?) of the other people who live around it. Did you all not notice it when you were picking out kitchen upgrades?
While New Life residents often congregate (and various other words that begin with a c) in Lucas Park, the homeless have gathered in that park for more than 40 years, well before New Life arrived. The draws have always been the Y's and, most importantly, the Public Library.
There are several elements in the City's plan for that area: reasonable (and, yes, compassionate) law, code, and ordinance enforcement; encouragement of and support for adjacent development; and a comprehensive strategy to eliminate the problem of chronic homelessness.
It would help if state institutions and other municipalities did not dump their people downtown. It would help if the state or federal government maintained and funded more programs to treat the contributing conditions of the chronically homeless.
Good point about them pre-dating us. The only issue is, they "used" to make Kiener plaza their home too, before someone realized that is the most public facing park we have for visitors. Hence, they were "moved" from there. You see much more enforcement there than Lucas.
The same principal applies now. Lucas is no more a shadow park, but is in the midst of DT revival. I have no doubt that compassion is needed when dealing with less fortunate, but compassion can be shown in ways other than political statements.
I like the idea of churches working WITH the city Gov. to better the life of homeless. It includes helping them get back on their feet, rather than giving them food and saying God will take care of them somehow.
"southcityagent" wrote about the DT Methodist church a few pages back and how it had teamed up with the DT residents assn. I checked it out and really liked the principles behind it. Is there a reason why NLEC can't do the same?
The same principal applies now. Lucas is no more a shadow park, but is in the midst of DT revival. I have no doubt that compassion is needed when dealing with less fortunate, but compassion can be shown in ways other than political statements.
I like the idea of churches working WITH the city Gov. to better the life of homeless. It includes helping them get back on their feet, rather than giving them food and saying God will take care of them somehow.
"southcityagent" wrote about the DT Methodist church a few pages back and how it had teamed up with the DT residents assn. I checked it out and really liked the principles behind it. Is there a reason why NLEC can't do the same?
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steve wrote:bsharmastl wrote:I find it hard to believe that lawyers would "repeatedly" file lawsuits over this. I would rather think they would file a lawsuit if they could extract some money.
Well, I think publiceye was talking about law clinic lawyers and those working pro bono publico (although it could be argued the public good is best served in other ways.
I was not exactly pleased with our fine university's use of its resources in that particular instance.
DeBaliviere wrote:steve wrote:bsharmastl wrote:I find it hard to believe that lawyers would "repeatedly" file lawsuits over this. I would rather think they would file a lawsuit if they could extract some money.
Well, I think publiceye was talking about law clinic lawyers and those working pro bono publico (although it could be argued the public good is best served in other ways.
I was not exactly pleased with our fine university's use of its resources in that particular instance.
I see what you mean, but as much as the homeless may "piss us off," they are people, and they do have rights. Lawyers are supposed to vindicate the rights of the wronged.
In a way, the fact that the homeless aren't just carted off somewhere is an indication that our republic is still relatively robust.
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bsharmastl wrote:
"southcityagent" wrote about the DT Methodist church a few pages back and how it had teamed up with the DT residents assn. I checked it out and really liked the principles behind it. Is there a reason why NLEC can't do the same?
I'm doubt there is a reason why they "can't" but I'd guess there are reasons why they "won't" and for those you'd need to ask Larry Rice.
Study finds 754,000 living on U.S. streets
POSTED: 11:07 a.m. EST, February 28, 2007
Reuters
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/28/homele ... index.html
Nothing mentioned about St. Louis -- but a related article.
POSTED: 11:07 a.m. EST, February 28, 2007
Reuters
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/28/homele ... index.html
Many cities in this country are trying to give the impression that things are better than they really are, that homelessness is decreasing. But in reality, homelessness continues to increase regardless of who is in the White House or who controls Congress," Stoops said in a telephone interview.
Nothing mentioned about St. Louis -- but a related article.
With the jobs vanishing it is no surprise that poverty is going up. I am more concerned about those people who would never think they could face a situation of being homeless.
At least STL lost some homeless (dunno how, but there was an article claiming that)
At least STL lost some homeless (dunno how, but there was an article claiming that)
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What do you mean by "jobs vanishing and poverty increasing"? Can you back up those statements or have you spent too much time listening to John Kerry?
southcitygent wrote:What do you mean by "jobs vanishing and poverty increasing"? Can you back up those statements or have you spent too much time listening to John Kerry?
Given that most of the business growth is outside of the core, that transit access is not adequate for those without a car, and since our MSA is ever increasing due to sprawl, one can say that jobs are leaving. Professionals may not have a hard time, however the lower skilled do, and we are not really funding continued education or job training, at least to the point that we could.
This isn't partisan its a fact. In the past the working poor were at least working. Now they are not.
Kerry who?southcitygent wrote:What do you mean by "jobs vanishing and poverty increasing"? Can you back up those statements or have you spent too much time listening to John Kerry?
locally:
Ford closing in Hazelwood
Chrysler plant shift closing
Big name companies leaving DT
etc
Though..... We have lost a lot of the manufacturing jobs across the country. There are too many stats in public places, so no posts needed for that.
The amount of people living below the poverty line in the US has also increased over the last decade.
Also : http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/26/news/ec ... ty_survey/
bsharmastl wrote:Kerry who?southcitygent wrote:What do you mean by "jobs vanishing and poverty increasing"? Can you back up those statements or have you spent too much time listening to John Kerry?
locally:
Ford closing in Hazelwood
Chrysler plant shift closing
Big name companies leaving DT
etc
Though..... We have lost a lot of the manufacturing jobs across the country. There are too many stats in public places, so no posts needed for that.
The amount of people living below the poverty line in the US has also increased over the last decade.
Also : http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/26/news/ec ... ty_survey/
bsharmastl wrote:bsharmastl wrote:Kerry who?southcitygent wrote:What do you mean by "jobs vanishing and poverty increasing"? Can you back up those statements or have you spent too much time listening to John Kerry?
locally:
Ford closing in Hazelwood
Chrysler plant shift closing
Big name companies leaving DT
etc
Though..... We have lost a lot of the manufacturing jobs across the country. There are too many stats in public places, so no posts needed for that.
The amount of people living below the poverty line in the US has also increased over the last decade.
Also : http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/26/news/ec ... ty_survey/
...and crime has risen accordingly. Even the most segregated communities, back in the day, were far less violent because people had jobs. Now they do not therefore the informal economy provides the means of survival. The informal economy by definition entails criminal activity, from victimless crimes like gambling and prostitution to all out drug wars.
When people have nothing, some will take it from you simply to survive. Look at Flint Michigan. As the GM plant closed, crime increased accordingly. For a while it was called the worst place to live in the United States. Compare the crime rates in Bronzeville, the historically black area of Chicago, in the 50's to what it is today. Then look at the job loss in that neighborhood. Correlation?
Regardless of race, ethnicity, or creed, when people cannot work the individual, family, and community breaks down. Social mores change throughout the neighborhood as this ghetto related behavior is transmitted. Over time, it continues as the middle class is absent which serve as role models, along with formal institutions that provide a stabilizing force. Local Government cannot do it alone as their tax base limits capacity, or they may simply focus their energies on the more affluent areas as in the Team Four Plan. Since New Federalism, this is no longer on the Federal Government's agenda. Look at New Orleans for evidence on how much our Federal Government cares for the ghetto underclass.
In a society which places the most value on personal responsibility, the cycle continues as this notion of personal responsibility, which mainstream society holds dear, simply cannot be applied at will. When people don't work, they cannot conform to this more even if have the desire. How can someone expect to be responsible, according to mainstream values, when they live in a completely different world? They simply cannot! These individuals are not automatons absent of free will, yet they also cannot easily detach themselves from the world which surrounds them. A bit of understanding is required by those who cite personal responsibility as the solution to poverty and its causal factors.
How can someone expect to be responsible, according to mainstream values, when they live in a completely different world? They simply cannot!
ah, Doug, you never cease to amaze me. Yes, lets not hold ALL people to the same standards. Society has created a class of people that shouldn't be held accoutable for their actions! I love the soft bigotry of such beliefs..
I've asked you before, how do you create new jobs? If jobs are what it all comes down to, and I believe they are, then how do we create them?
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^ not to mention there are plenty of people who choose NOT to work - no matter how many jobs you create.
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Although I am by no means an expert, the end result of homelessness is very rarely due to a poor economy. My experience has been that that illness (mental and physical), chemical dependency and difficult home environments (abuse) are its greatest cause.