My expectations are on the floor for AT Still to make good use of that property. Landbanking by nonprofit entities has been bad for the City.
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Saw an infographic today that had HyVee as the most common grocer in Missouri and it shocked me. Looked and there are tons but zero in StL metro.
Does anyone know why this is?
I think the city in particular has an urban grocer issue that has became super apparent since the closing of Fields. Many walkable neighborhoods aren’t actually walkable because of the lack of a grocery. Been waiting for a grocer to come in and start to fill the gap
The fact that there is no Trader Joe’s in the city limits continues to be appalling. No Dierbergs being even more appalling.
Does anyone know why this is?
I think the city in particular has an urban grocer issue that has became super apparent since the closing of Fields. Many walkable neighborhoods aren’t actually walkable because of the lack of a grocery. Been waiting for a grocer to come in and start to fill the gap
The fact that there is no Trader Joe’s in the city limits continues to be appalling. No Dierbergs being even more appalling.
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I actually just saw a graphic like that on Reddit, but it was Schnucks for MO. HyVee was IA, MN, NE & SD. I don't really trust either one, because I'd have to imagine WalMart or Aldi would break through in at least one state nationwide.delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑Aug 27, 2024Saw an infographic today that had HyVee as the most common grocer in Missouri and it shocked me. Looked and there are tons but zero in StL metro.
Does anyone know why this is?
I think the city in particular has an urban grocer issue that has became super apparent since the closing of Fields. Many walkable neighborhoods aren’t actually walkable because of the lack of a grocery. Been waiting for a grocer to come in and start to fill the gap
The fact that there is no Trader Joe’s in the city limits continues to be appalling. No Dierbergs being even more appalling.
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Re KC, is there an equivalent grocer to Schnuck's that serves the core city fairly well? Looks like Hy-Vee may be similar to Dierberg's in that it avoids the core. I see a couple locations within city limits but all are pretty far-flung from the core. (I do wish Schnuck's served North City better but it does have 1 remaining there... add in the 6 south of Delmar and 7 total locations is a pretty decent presence in the core city.)
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Talking about grocery stores, Park Place Market across from Expo at Forest Park had its grand opening today without much fanfare or marketing. I have not checked their store yet.
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Cobblestone on the Landing and SAN market on Washington Ave have a nice little collection now, SAN has booze too.
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Went into the Cobblestone space a few weeks before it opened and it looks great. The addition of Brew Tulum also great. Continues to make Downtown a viable place to live.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Aug 27, 2024Cobblestone on the Landing and SAN market on Washington Ave have a nice little collection now, SAN has booze too.
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KC has Price Chopper which is fairly close to the Schnuck's vibe. They have a location downtown called Cosentino's but overall the core urban KC area is pretty underserved.
I'm also of the opinion the STL is the lowest hanging fruit for HyVee market expansion. They are already in KC, Springfield MO, Columbia, Quincy, and Springfield IL. I could see them opening 3-5 locations on the MO side and absolutely crushing it. I wouldn't expect them to do much in the city though, their Downtown Des Moines experimental location has soured them on urban stores I think.
I'm also of the opinion the STL is the lowest hanging fruit for HyVee market expansion. They are already in KC, Springfield MO, Columbia, Quincy, and Springfield IL. I could see them opening 3-5 locations on the MO side and absolutely crushing it. I wouldn't expect them to do much in the city though, their Downtown Des Moines experimental location has soured them on urban stores I think.
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yeah i GUARANTEE Walmart is the largest grocer in MO in both volume and locations. That said they were probably excluded because they are not exclusively a grocer.Bart Harley Jarvis wrote: ↑Aug 27, 2024I actually just saw a graphic like that on Reddit, but it was Schnucks for MO. HyVee was IA, MN, NE & SD. I don't really trust either one, because I'd have to imagine WalMart or Aldi would break through in at least one state nationwide.delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑Aug 27, 2024Saw an infographic today that had HyVee as the most common grocer in Missouri and it shocked me. Looked and there are tons but zero in StL metro.
Does anyone know why this is?
I think the city in particular has an urban grocer issue that has became super apparent since the closing of Fields. Many walkable neighborhoods aren’t actually walkable because of the lack of a grocery. Been waiting for a grocer to come in and start to fill the gap
The fact that there is no Trader Joe’s in the city limits continues to be appalling. No Dierbergs being even more appalling.
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This is correct. It’s Walmart by a wide margin.STLEnginerd wrote:yeah i GUARANTEE Walmart is the largest grocer in MO in both volume and locations. That said they were probably excluded because they are not exclusively a grocer.Bart Harley Jarvis wrote: ↑Aug 27, 2024I actually just saw a graphic like that on Reddit, but it was Schnucks for MO. HyVee was IA, MN, NE & SD. I don't really trust either one, because I'd have to imagine WalMart or Aldi would break through in at least one state nationwide.delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑Aug 27, 2024Saw an infographic today that had HyVee as the most common grocer in Missouri and it shocked me. Looked and there are tons but zero in StL metro.
Does anyone know why this is?
I think the city in particular has an urban grocer issue that has became super apparent since the closing of Fields. Many walkable neighborhoods aren’t actually walkable because of the lack of a grocery. Been waiting for a grocer to come in and start to fill the gap
The fact that there is no Trader Joe’s in the city limits continues to be appalling. No Dierbergs being even more appalling.
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Which grocery store chains could potentially enter the St. Louis metro market in the next decade?
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Good candidates would likely be HyVee, Kroger, Meijer (yes, I know they’re technically already here), and County Market (in the exurbs).
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Hyvee in particular. They are expanding everywhere around St Louis.
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Personally i see no need to draw more grocers to town, i just wanna see more smaller format locations within the city. A small format independent grocer is going to struggle, but one that has a local distribution network should be able to be profitable. The Culinaria concept should be in half a dozen location by now. Downtown west, the old Fields foods in Soulard, and a midtown location should be viable targets for the concept, but they seem to have abandoned it.
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I disagree. St. Louisan’s pay for too much for groceries - more than our neighbours. Lack of competition is one of causes imo.
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I was doing some further reading and it seems a likely reason that HyVee has stayed out of STL is that it's non-union and STL is a union town when it comes to grocers
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You have a right to your opinion but i don't see it. It varies but I often find Schnucks prices are lower than Walmart on certain items, which is the default for "cheap" commodities and Aldis is also affordable option. You may have data to justify yours assertion that clarifies who our neighbors are and what the deltas are. Even if there are discrepancies there could be many driving factors. Inflation/corporate price gouging in general over the last few years are big drivers for our current situation. Land Acquisition costs could explain some variance between the St. Louis metro and out state. Higher local sales taxes and TIFs that add additional taxes to cover development costs are also cost drivers. If Schnucks & Deirbergs are higher its also partially due to unionized labor which i don't begrudge them a living wage. I'd like to see numbers but its my understanding that grocers or producers margins haven't significantly improved due to inflation and most of the price inflation is realized by the food stuff manufacturers.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Aug 29, 2024I disagree. St. Louisan’s pay for too much for groceries - more than our neighbours. Lack of competition is one of causes imo.
Now the derth of grocers serving the urban parts of st. louis is a big cost driver for those persons and families which is what my comment stated was a more effective way to address the need. IMHO.
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This is why I’m so surprised by Trader Joe’s and Aldi’s opting for settings with large parking lots instead of urban storefronts - they are already smaller formats and appear to fit better in an urban environment. Even Save a Lot builds out parking lots that’s are usually empty because most people going live close. Dogtown, Soulard, Downtown West, Dutchtown, Fox Park/Benton Park, Downtown Clayton, Delmar Loop/Debaliviere all are places that a major distributor small format store would fit in but nobody is trying it since Fields Foods went out. It truly is odd that there is not a single TJ’s in a city limits of 300,000 people with still comparably higher density than its peers.STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Aug 28, 2024Personally i see no need to draw more grocers to town, i just wanna see more smaller format locations within the city. A small format independent grocer is going to struggle, but one that has a local distribution network should be able to be profitable. The Culinaria concept should be in half a dozen location by now. Downtown west, the old Fields foods in Soulard, and a midtown location should be viable targets for the concept, but they seem to have abandoned it.
StL actually probably has done better than most cities retaining its mom and pop grocers in some neighborhoods that fill the gap (Hill, Tower Grove South, Bevo Mill) and I do not want those to go out, but some of these other neighborhoods do not have those types of stores.
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TJ’s isnt going into the city because of the income demographics. It’s gotta be a wealthy suburb. I would love to see Aldi though.delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote:This is why I’m so surprised by Trader Joe’s and Aldi’s opting for settings with large parking lots instead of urban storefronts - they are already smaller formats and appear to fit better in an urban environment. Even Save a Lot builds out parking lots that’s are usually empty because most people going live close. Dogtown, Soulard, Downtown West, Dutchtown, Fox Park/Benton Park, Downtown Clayton, Delmar Loop/Debaliviere all are places that a major distributor small format store would fit in but nobody is trying it since Fields Foods went out. It truly is odd that there is not a single TJ’s in a city limits of 300,000 people with still comparably higher density than its peers.STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Aug 28, 2024Personally i see no need to draw more grocers to town, i just wanna see more smaller format locations within the city. A small format independent grocer is going to struggle, but one that has a local distribution network should be able to be profitable. The Culinaria concept should be in half a dozen location by now. Downtown west, the old Fields foods in Soulard, and a midtown location should be viable targets for the concept, but they seem to have abandoned it.
StL actually probably has done better than most cities retaining its mom and pop grocers in some neighborhoods that fill the gap (Hill, Tower Grove South, Bevo Mill) and I do not want those to go out, but some of these other neighborhoods do not have those types of stores.
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What about Dollar General Market? Or Walmart Neighborhood Market? Are other cities pulling these smaller format stores into their urban cores? I would prefer a smaller format Schnucks, or TJs, Aldi but we have been fighting that battle for years.Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑Aug 29, 2024TJ’s isnt going into the city because of the income demographics. It’s gotta be a wealthy suburb. I would love to see Aldi though.delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote:This is why I’m so surprised by Trader Joe’s and Aldi’s opting for settings with large parking lots instead of urban storefronts - they are already smaller formats and appear to fit better in an urban environment. Even Save a Lot builds out parking lots that’s are usually empty because most people going live close. Dogtown, Soulard, Downtown West, Dutchtown, Fox Park/Benton Park, Downtown Clayton, Delmar Loop/Debaliviere all are places that a major distributor small format store would fit in but nobody is trying it since Fields Foods went out. It truly is odd that there is not a single TJ’s in a city limits of 300,000 people with still comparably higher density than its peers.STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Aug 28, 2024Personally i see no need to draw more grocers to town, i just wanna see more smaller format locations within the city. A small format independent grocer is going to struggle, but one that has a local distribution network should be able to be profitable. The Culinaria concept should be in half a dozen location by now. Downtown west, the old Fields foods in Soulard, and a midtown location should be viable targets for the concept, but they seem to have abandoned it.
StL actually probably has done better than most cities retaining its mom and pop grocers in some neighborhoods that fill the gap (Hill, Tower Grove South, Bevo Mill) and I do not want those to go out, but some of these other neighborhoods do not have those types of stores.
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Meijer is opening one store in Edwardsville, quite possibly as late as 2026. So if they cross the river, it won't be for a few years.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Aug 28, 2024Good candidates would likely be HyVee, Kroger, Meijer (yes, I know they’re technically already here), and County Market (in the exurbs).
I'm not saying the prices aren't too high, but I was recently in Florida and Georgia. The Publix down there are pretty much 10% higher (or more) across the board. I'm talking Dierbergs and Straubs prices for a Schnucks equivalent.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Aug 29, 2024I disagree. St. Louisan’s pay for too much for groceries - more than our neighbours. Lack of competition is one of causes imo.
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dweebe wrote:I'm not saying the prices aren't too high, but I was recently in Florida and Georgia. The Publix down there are pretty much 10% higher (or more) across the board. I'm talking Dierbergs and Straubs prices for a Schnucks equivalent.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Aug 29, 2024I disagree. St. Louisan’s pay for too much for groceries - more than our neighbours. Lack of competition is one of causes imo.
Publix is a very different model of pricing. They make the everyday pricing higher and then pulse deeper discount sales. Whereas someone like Walmart keeps everyday pricing lower and rarely has sales.dweebe wrote:I'm not saying the prices aren't too high, but I was recently in Florida and Georgia. The Publix down there are pretty much 10% higher (or more) across the board. I'm talking Dierbergs and Straubs prices for a Schnucks equivalent.JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑Aug 29, 2024I disagree. St. Louisan’s pay for too much for groceries - more than our neighbours. Lack of competition is one of causes imo.
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Its not about brands its about locations and distribution. A new entrant will struggle to compete with established players like schnucks because they have established distribution for dozens of locations in the metro. Albertosons and Kroger have both gone through this. A single Meijers is likely to have higher unit costs for this reason and to establish a foothold they will likely keep the margins as low as possible and be subsidized with their expansive regional network.. That said if Schnucks allows Meijer or any other chain to claim a foothold locally the larger corporation can eat them up over the long term.
Also consider there is almost 0 chance Meijer will start with service to a economically poor part of the region. GUARANTEE they will seek to serve the same markets Schnucks diebergs, fresh tyme, Straubs, TJs, whole foods, costco, walmart and sams are all vying for (I leave out Aldis because i feel like their core target market is a little more budget conscious demographic and family dollar is not a grocer IMHO) Did i miss any...? (For this reason i don't see a need to wish for more brands to enter the market.
SOO in short Schnucks has an opportunity to stake their claim in smaller format stores in the city BEFORE some one else comes and establishes themselves. The next most likely i would say is probably ALDI. Personally i root for the local and union friendly brand. The rest are probably going to stick to the burbs for the foreseeable future.
Also consider there is almost 0 chance Meijer will start with service to a economically poor part of the region. GUARANTEE they will seek to serve the same markets Schnucks diebergs, fresh tyme, Straubs, TJs, whole foods, costco, walmart and sams are all vying for (I leave out Aldis because i feel like their core target market is a little more budget conscious demographic and family dollar is not a grocer IMHO) Did i miss any...? (For this reason i don't see a need to wish for more brands to enter the market.
SOO in short Schnucks has an opportunity to stake their claim in smaller format stores in the city BEFORE some one else comes and establishes themselves. The next most likely i would say is probably ALDI. Personally i root for the local and union friendly brand. The rest are probably going to stick to the burbs for the foreseeable future.
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I thought the value of grocers was in the actual real-estate that the store sits on
Does not Schnucks own a fair amount of land?
There may be nothing to it other than what we know. But is there a real story (something titillating ) of the rise and fall of Field's grocers?
Does not Schnucks own a fair amount of land?
There may be nothing to it other than what we know. But is there a real story (something titillating ) of the rise and fall of Field's grocers?