urbanSTL

Miss Shell wrote: ↑

Sep 20, 2023

Can they just demolish the building on Lafayette and replace it with something that utilizes the lot better?

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Is there any demand for something like that? There's literally a residential block falling apart next to that parking lot, doesn't seem that demand for conversion would be high.

In other grocery news, Seafood City . . . oh brother. Yeah, I know they weren't a chain and I'm probably the one white guy on this board who cares, but I had no idea, and we shopped there at least occasionally before the end. Turns out Fields Foods leaving their stores empty was kind of a nice thing to do. Seafood rots inside a shuttered market.

kipfilet wrote: ↑

Sep 20, 2023

Miss Shell wrote: ↑

Sep 20, 2023

Can they just demolish the building on Lafayette and replace it with something that utilizes the lot better?

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Is there any demand for something like that? There's literally a residential block falling apart next to that parking lot, doesn't seem that demand for conversion would be high.

I'd argue there's demand on that exact residential block.  It's up to the property owners to make it an attractive (and, also worthy of passing for an occupancy permit) place to live.

that was once a Target store

^Seafood City? I'll be! I'd assumed it was previously a grocery store. I shudder to think how that building could possibly be salvaged at this point, and it frustrates me, as I honestly quite liked the place when I was first introduced. Even after the plague, when it really started slipping, I still tried to stop in a couple of times just to see if things had improved or if there were any good sales; to kind of price shop a bit. This one hurts in a weird way. I can't get it out of my head as I thought it was so incredibly cool. First time I ever saw a seafood section like that.

One of our regular bike routes takes us down 81st (the street directly west of it). That place reeks. I feel so bad for the neighbors in that area - there's no way you can enjoy being outside in a several block radius of the building. It's kind of weird that coverage of it is just ticking up now since it shut down months and months ago. I'm glad they're working on it and really hope they get it cleaned up soon. 

^I think coverage is ticking up now because someone finally decided to do something about it. I'm not quite sure how the powers that be missed that there was a store full of food rotting unrefrigerated through a Missouri summer. But if anyone in government knew the place was still full they apparently chose to ignore that problem and hope it would solve itself. I suppose it even would have, eventually. But not without quite the stink first. I'm still in a mild state of shock about it. I'm trying to remember when we were last up at Olive Market. (Even before they closed, we'd decided the competition was better.) We were there over the summer, I'm certain, and didn't notice the smell then, but maybe the wind was blowing the wrong way. (Or the right way, I suppose.) Yeah, I feel sorry for everyone that lives or works nearby. Can't be good for anybody, but hopefully the worst of it is dealt with by now.

Behind Seafood City’s Awful Stench in St. Louis: A Florida GOP Politician?
https://www.riverfronttimes.com/news/behind-seafood-citys-awful-stench-in-st-louis-a-florida-gop-politician-40911633

I live several blocks to the south. Boy I'm glad I haven't noticed the stench. 

^^Well, I'm deeply glad that the jerk who left the fish to rot, and all the food in the store, isn't necessarily local. It makes me nauseous the amount of sheer stupid waste allowing tons and tons of perfectly good non-perishable food and dry goods to become unusable by sheer weight of being exposed to that much stink, that much rot, that much nasty. Okay, the thought of the rotting food also makes me nauseous, but oddly less nauseous. Seriously. The whole thing is just sad. Watching tons and tons and tons of rice, wrappers, sauce, baskets, frying pans . . . The very store itself could have been useful, and now it's going to be really really hard to make it work again. I want to scream.

Sorry.

To be fair, there's plenty of people who should have caught this. It's a systemic failure we can learn from. How did U. City miss it? St. Louis County? Maybe we should have some checks in place. What could the landlord have done? Did anyone take the time to consult the people that had worked there. (You kind of figure most of them really weren't there to make people sick or stink up the world. They wanted to get paid and feed their families, I expect. Same as all of us. And the store failing probably made that more than a touch tricky.) How much did the plague contribute? (Lost business, food going unsold, difficulty getting contractors to fix stuff, etc.) It's a complicated problem and we can probably learn something from it. Maybe. Possibly. Not quite an Air Crash Investigation. But still a complicated failure that could help us fix our system of inspections and regulation.

I hear there were also quite a few live animals left behind. I hate to think of their fate. 

framer wrote: ↑

Sep 23, 2023

I hear there were also quite a few live animals left behind. I hate to think of their fate. 

If I recall correctly, the live animal tanks were all empty when we were last in there, even before the end. Can't guarantee they didn't have anything in the back, but even if they did, the most sophisticated animal they ever had was probably a frog. It was basically just fishtanks and some bins of shellfish like crabs and oysters. (Which is pretty typical Asian grocery store fare, they just had more of it than most.) There's nothing there terribly much more sophisticated than the flies that were eating the leftovers when the cleaning finally started. You're not wrong, but I don't think you need to worry about much more animal cruelty than when you swat a mosquito. The smell, however, was doubtlessly cruel to everything human. (And fabulous to many things not.)

Still un-freaking believable.

I heard turtles. I have a soft-spot for the little guys, so I was kinda pissed thinking about them struggling in there. 

framer wrote: ↑

Sep 25, 2023

I heard turtles. I have a soft-spot for the little guys, so I was kinda pissed thinking about them struggling in there. 

All right, I forgot about the turtles. But again, I think the live bins were cleared well before they closed down for good. There was a huge amount empty the last few times we were in there. The whole seafood section was roped off, so I'm guessing there weren't any turtles there by that time. Hopefully. All that said, I still want to try turtle soup one of these days. If I can ever find someone who cooks the stuff. And yes, I very much had basement turtles as a kid. (My parents last turtle died maybe two years ago. Got to be an old fart. Close to forty, at least.)

https://www.stlpr.org/economy-business/ ... the-grocer

I have to disagree with WashU professor. There was demand, at least in DeBaliviere and there was strong customer base.

If there's strong enough demand, then someone else will open up in their space eventually.

The biggest problem with Fields Foods is they didn't really try. No marketing. How do you not send a mailer to everyone living within a mile? 
In the case of the location in Pagedale was an obvious mistake, a huge mismatch in price point and possible customer base, which Beyond Housing should have seen.

I am not totally convinced the demand is there for the Debaliviere location due to the population of the surrounding area and the fact that there are multiple other grocers in the area. There are two Schnucks and a Straubs within 2.5 miles.

I’d like to see a grocer who is much more adept at the shopping methods that might better serve the area. College students will use the grocers app and Instacart while “buy online, pick up in store” services would serve the TOD aspect of the location well. Schnucks does these things pretty well. Fields did not.


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spending at Grocey stores has been pretty flat in the City while spending at restaurants has skyrocketed but i think this is a national trend over the last decade 

Debaliviere91 wrote: ↑

Oct 04, 2023

I am not totally convinced the demand is there for the Debaliviere location due to the population of the surrounding area and the fact that there are multiple other grocers in the area. There are two Schnucks and a Straubs within 2.5 miles.

And Whole foods, an Aldi, United Provisions on the Loop and a bunch of other small grocers and convenience stores and even a Save-a-Lot. I'd guess it's one of the densest areas in town, so it makes sense there's more grocers there in more variety than your usual neighborhood. Especially since there's such a dramatic range in the quite affluent to the working class, students, doctors, professors, service workers . . . Quite the mix, really.

I’d like to see a grocer who is much more adept at the shopping methods that might better serve the area. College students will use the grocers app and Instacart while “buy online, pick up in store” services would serve the TOD aspect of the location well. Schnucks does these things pretty well. Fields did not.

Yeah, this makes sense. I think the location is probably great. First floor of a large apartment in a quite dense area near a transit stop, and in the spot that's probably furthest from a grocery in the neighborhood. (Which isn't far, mind. But still. There's nothing else within a mile that I can see.) But I like your thinking. I'm inclined to think Fields was a bit overextended and that particular store probably wasn't the problem, but grocery really does have to be a hard business to break into. Hopefully someone else can make the space work. Delivery and pickup could help. Wasn't aware they did those things poorly, but I only shopped at Fields a couple of times as none of their locations were ever convenient to me. They seemed a bit pricey for what they were, which probably doesn't help. Can work in a convenience store or a small neighborhood grocer, but in a larger grocer, which I'd call Fields, it's probably not good.

I think the notion that college students just use grocery apps seems like a bit of projection here, like yeah they're "digital natives" or whatever but it costs more and there's fewer options. 

I think a grocery store on Debaliviere could do well, and I don't think the area is oversaturated with grocery stores. The CWE seems to be doing fine supporting Whole Foods, Schnucks, & Straub's w Aldi right over the border. 

Most importantly, I don't think of any of those stores as being particularly walkable from Debaliviere Place, and I think for a neighborhood to be truly vibrant it needs a grocery store you can walk to. 

Laife Fulk wrote: ↑

Oct 04, 2023

If there's strong enough demand, then someone else will open up in their space eventually.

Damn dreams and bettering a neighborhood. Just run the numbers....ugh. They say things like: hey man, if you think cars suck so bad, just build a better car or build a train system so you don't have cars. Just do it man. Libertarian, free market dreams are no less valuable than better city/society dreams. If there's money in it, someone will do it? We're doomed....