urbanSTL

^ It's unclear to me whether a N/S street grade MetroLink line would be any different than the proposed streetcar line here.

One of the densest residential neighborhoods in St. Louis is the DeBaliviere Place neighborhood. It's filled with (literally) a few thousand young professionals who are inclined to support public transit. And that's the neighborhood that lies between this streetcar system and the Loop trolley. Reaching DeBaliviere seems like a great opportunity — if not now, then for future expansion.

^ connecting the lines would be good, but the Skinky-D is pretty well served by MetroLink already - just saying that the ROI may not make it a priority. Not to mention that the gap is likely full of NIMBYS. It's hard to imagine residents on Lindell across from Forest Park welcoming a streetcar. Perhaps Euclid to Delmar would make sense.

^ Streetcar story stated 10min headways, just FWIW.

^^^The streetcar used to jog up to Waterman between Kingshighway and Union. I have some great photos of the streetcars running down Pershing west of Union. I suspect the old tracks are still under the asphalt. The streetcars were the reason that neighborhood became so dense. It was the original Transit Oriented Development.

Still, I get that it's beyond the purview of this study.

Alex Ihnen wrote:^ It's unclear to me whether a N/S street grade MetroLink line would be any different than the proposed streetcar line here.

However, construction and compatibility could be substantially different depending on the vehicles used. E.g. In Portland, the streetcar can run on MAX tracks, but not vice-versa.

ealfotd wrote:I'm one of those people. I understand the idea that development around the line is a major benefit, however, looking at it from the perspective of destinations that currently fall along the line, I don't know that this line serves any that Metrolink doesn't. I would love to see a streetcar system (or other meaningful upgrades to our public transit system), but I think it's going to be a hard sell if you're not bringing the system to a neighborhood or destination that isn't currently served. Finding new and innovative ways to connect places that are already connected is a tough sell, especially in this economy.

From my perspective, Metrolink does not provide convenient service to the midtown, grand center and even CWE as it takes at least a five minute additional walk to get to where you want to go. This proposal is very similar to Cleveland's BRT line down Euclid which could be said to duplicate its rail service from downtown through midtown, past the huge Cleveland Clinic (which makes BJC look like a small village), and to the University Circle arts area. But from all accounts I've seen its rather popular and has indeed spurred development, especially in the midtown area.

I'm all thumbs up for this. But in reality I think it is all up to the landowners willingness to tax themselves to pay for a big chunk.

ealfotd wrote:

roger wyoming II wrote:From my perspective, Metrolink does not provide convenient service to the midtown, grand center and even CWE as it takes at least a five minute additional walk to get to where you want to go. .

I do agree with that, but I wonder if slightly more convenient will convince someone who would otherwise be driving? Maybe if it were free. I don't see people who currently think a five minute walk is prohibitive to using public transportation going out of their way to take a streetcar.

I'd imagine that someone in the CWE - say at McPherson and Boyle - who wants to go to Grand Center would absolutely take the streetcar while not MetroLink. While someone likely won't walk a mile (15mins) to the CWE stop, take it to the Grand stop and walk another mile to the Sheldon, that person could walk just a couple blocks and take the streetcar to Grand/Lindell. Ultimately, the CWE stop is used heavily, but mostly by BJC/WU employees. The Grand stop isn't used by Grand Center patrons.

But why wouldn't that person take the 18 to the CWE stop link down to grand and then the 70 north to grand center. Or if they want to hit mid town the 91 on delmar.

The city needs to make the routes less confusing. Focusing on intersecting routes with transfers rather than trying to route everthing to a central transit hub. The taylor route (18) stops at the CWE metrolink while the botanical gardens route (14) serves southwest gardens. Why are these not the same route simplified into a single north south route that feeds the link.
Also why is there not a strong marketing campaign using flyers on light poles along the routes and at metro stations to educate the public on where the heck a bus can get you in the city. Flyers that say:

Botanical Gardens? Take the 14 from CWE
Grand Center? Take the 70 North on Grand
Soulard? Take the 30 from the Civic Center

Lastly destigmatize the bus. Don't throw it away in favor of a transit system that acheives the same thing (at least in terms of people movement I am skeptical of the "sense of place" arguement) as a streetcar with less infrastructure investment. If there was no metrobus the investment might make sense to me but we do and its at least patially supported by county dollars which is a bonus for the city.

Feed the Link. Its Hungry

By the way that flyer thing might be a decent Rally St. Louis idea even though its low cost and MTA should be doing this already. The two things that prevent visitors from using the bus are route confusion and stigma. I should know I have been guilty of both in the past.

So even though I don't know the routes as well as you its clear you already get the required service from grand center to the taproom. Why build a streetcar to duplicate that service rather the educate and promote the existing service. That was my point Metrobus gives good coverage NOW not in 2016 and only costs what is needed to pay drivers and maintain buses part of which is shared by the county.

^ Now if the average urban joe were as hardy and resourceful as quincunx, then buses would be overflowing with demand. But still, a streetcar from the CWE to Midtown is going to be incredibly more convenient than a bus to MetroLink and another bus. There's a threshold that the vast majority of people won't cross - taking a streetcar with a 10min headway from SLU to the Whole Foods in the CWE makes sense, while taking the bus (or walking 15min) to MetroLink, etc. just doesn't. The streetcar trip might take 20mins while MetroLink could take 45. And on the streetcar you can decide to hop off a stop early because you see a friend, or remember something else you need. There are things to see and do along the route - no so with MetroLink.