urbanSTL

I'm for building the streetcar. To me the metro serves more of a commuter rail role and should be expanded in such fashion. I rarely take the bus because I don't know where the stations are, they don't take CC payments, but mostly I have no idea when they are supposed to arrive. I don't want to plan my trip around a bus that shows up once an hour. If they would build those little bus-stop shelter areas for every stop, mark the arrival times, and have a map of the routes at every stop, then I would take it more often.

This is a really great discussion, I agree with a lot of the points that people are making.

Personally, I use the Metrolink to get to SLU Hospital, Grand Center, the CWE, and even Lafayette Square sometimes. But I'm crazy and really enjoy walking. I would probably be a frequent user of the trolley as the route is currently written (if it was included on my monthly Metro pass). I agree that there will be ridership for this line, I just wonder if it will be enough to 1) support it financially 2) make it appear successful to non-transit oriented folk. I'm concerned that if this fails our efforts to improve public transportation will be foiled for another decade.

Note: I have yet to become a frequent bus rider mainly because I've found that the service doesn't seem quite as reliable (this is based on a very small sample size). Several times I've gotten off the train and Google Maps has told me a bus will be coming by within a couple minutes, yet I'm able to walk to my destination without ever seeing one. Other times the 5-10 minute walk is shorter than the wait time for the bus.

Aye, they get me there, but it's crappy service. To make bus riding better:

1. Fix the roads
2. Increase frequency
3. More bus shelters
4. Post the route names and destinations on the bus stop signs
5. Post route maps in shelters
6. Post schedules in the shelters
7. Put "Bus XX will be here in YY mins" at bigger stops. And put the real time given the location of the bus and conditions, not what the schedule says.
8. Make a mobile app that'll tell you the closest routes to you, when they'll be there (again the real time, not what the schedule says), where they go, and show a map of the route.
9. Shovel the snow around bus stops and shelters.

Do the new fare boxes on the buses take CCs?

The Grand Metro station should be at FP Ave or Lindell, but it's not. In that area Metorlink is for commuters and transfers to and from the 70. It doesn't serve the neighborhoods. The streetcar would. Perhaps the improvements above would accomplish the same thing. But there is a big psychological difference when you can see the route in the road (the rails).

I also agree a streetcar to Soulard would be more popular than one to Old North. I suspect it's in the proposal for political reasons.

I think popular support, political support, tax support, ridership, etc... could be significantly increased by adding the 1.3 miles from Civic Center to Soulard Market. Certainly the vendors at the market would get behind it, along with small business owners in Soulard and Lafayette Square, maybe the neighborhood organizations and Ameren, Purina, and/or A-B would get behind it as well.

The extra 1.3 miles could go a long way toward getting the line to ONSL.

quincunx wrote:I suspect it's in the proposal for political reasons.

Good point. The ONSL proposal might just be a way of getting more support for the DT-CWE line, which seems so much more viable in every way.

I'm with Wabash's idea from a couple of pages back. [EDIT: It turns out I'm not with Wabash's idea. He wants to loop the Old Post Office; I want to loop the Library. ] I like the idea of each N-S-W street car lines terminating (well, looping) in the three-block bump of the Gateway Mall. Mainly because some of this heretofore useless (yeah, I said it) western Gateway Mall space might actually find some purpose.

Think about it -- that underused park space between the Library and Soldier's Memorial could be flanked on 3-4 sides by platforms. Some public art could be installed, some public gazebos, bandstands or pavilions could be constructed. If it were my show to run, I'd have a Library team there on nice days too with a browsing station and a handful of food trucks ready to serve. Maybe the Gateway Mall conservancy could hire a three-piece brass band to play from the stage. Maybe some members of the local Veteran's groups can make a daily tradition of hoisting the flag at Soldier's Memorial and playing "Reveille."

Unrealistically idyllic? Maybe. Quaint? Sure. But I'd rather re-center the City a little bit west (#Golterman'd) here and try to reactivate a public park in the meantime...not to mention returning respect to a Soldier's Memorial that now seems to host more rock-and-roll concerts and heavy drinking/eating events than services/events honoring Armed Services.

I understand this is meant to be paid for by a TOD-based property tax. And I do recognize that streetcar development, if implemented smartly, can result in positive growth and development along its route.

Regarding the actual study...the routes are definitely close to the right approach. They hit streets with the width to support them without inhibiting traffic flow for cars/buses (and dedicated bike lanes!) which should actually result in a much-needed road diet. Unfortunately it does heavily duplicate existing bus routes. But I guess that's to be expected.

In another thread, I propose something similar but, like I said, terminating at the Library and leaving the CBD for bus/"trolley" service and future Metrolink investment. I also felt it would best serve the southside by heading straight down Gravois. I left the direct west line out as I feared -- as others have -- it would too closely mimic the bus routes and parallel the Metrolink. Instead, I sent it up Olive a bit before, bumping it onto Jefferson to try to activate to NW St. Louis:

The 10 bus covers the proposed Lindell route and Kevin B's route down Gravois. Yet it's not getting the job done given everyone's transportation and development desires.

Given Metro's system map
http://metrostlouis.org/Libraries/Syste ... em_Map.pdf

It seems just about any streetcar line will duplicate a bus route. So what? The streetcar is better!

^Is that what you meant to link to?

^^Actually, I thought looping around Old Post Office Square would be good, not looping around the library. I think the library is a bit too far west for a DT terminal.

I like the current proposal for a downtown loop, although I don't see the purpose of it dipping down to hit Kiener Plaza at the very end. Seems unnecessary.

goat314 wrote:^ I just think we need a more comprehensive plan before we start throwing millions of dollars at a rail transit system that will have very little regional context. The Northside-Southside line would potentially expand into St. Louis County. I don't see us taking this north of ONSL.

I agree that this should be a concern, but many other metro's have numerous, overlapping transit systems/authorities. ie San Fran with Cal Train, BART, and Muni Metro; Philly with Subways, Streetcars, and Commuter Rail (PATCO & SEPTA); Cleveland and Boston each have one authority, but they run heavy rail, light rail, and BRT.

Oops, no, thanks!

Here's my vision of the future once the wildly successful DT to CWE streetcar is built. 5 total streetcar lines intersecting 5 Metrolink stops and connecting the 10 most populous neighborhoods (plus 8/10 most dense neighborhoods) with almost all major attractions and rarely more than 1 transfer required to get from one place to another.

Gravois has always seemed like a no brainer with the route it takes through so many neighborhoods and density. Gravois was an alternate studied for the NS line, but for whatever reason Chouteau/Jefferson was recommended instead.

quincunx wrote:The 10 bus covers the proposed Lindell route and Kevin B's route down Gravois. Yet it's not getting the job done given everyone's transportation and development desires.

For the very simple reason that it's not frequent enough. Buses are only every 30 minutes whereas this streetcar idea proposes a train every 10 minutes from the get go.

Yes, the north extension is included for competitiveness for Small Starts funding from the FTA. The line is not happening without it. And there is more than just ONSL on that line, though that is where I will be boarding. I too would like to see the south extension, but my guess is that was kept out for now because of needing to cross Mill Creek Valley on a bridge. I'm sure the current 14th St. Bridge is not engineered for a streetcar, which would make things much more expensive. The great thing about streetcars is extensions of even a really short length are easy to add since stops are spaced much more closely than light rail or true heavy commuter rail.

Thanks for the context/explanation.

What might our streetcars look like? I hope so bad they're vintage - - whether authentic or replicas. Either way.

wabash wrote:I think popular support, political support, tax support, ridership, etc... could be significantly increased by adding the 1.3 miles from Civic Center to Soulard Market. Certainly the vendors at the market would get behind it, along with small business owners in Soulard and Lafayette Square, maybe the neighborhood organizations and Ameren, Purina, and/or A-B would get behind it as well.

The extra 1.3 miles could go a long way toward getting the line to ONSL.

quincunx wrote:I suspect it's in the proposal for political reasons.

Good point. The ONSL proposal might just be a way of getting more support for the DT-CWE line, which seems so much more viable in every way.

There is no possible way to have a streetcar going down Lafayette Avenue between Tucker Boulevard and 7th Street-the R.O.W. is far too narrow-the street in that stretch is only one lane each direction with just enough width for on-street parking and no center turn lane.

A streetcar would be better off going east on Park Avenue and then down 7th Street towards the Market or travel further down Tucker to Russell and then east on Russell through the heart of Soulard.

If you refer to the referenced Streetcar and Trolley map from 1910 you will see that streetcars previously traveled on Park and Russell as far east as 9th Street and then north/south on 9th Street adjacent to Soulard Market (this route would not be entirely feasible due to I-55): http://trackingprogress.org/wp-content/ ... -louis.jpg

Gateway City wrote:What might our streetcars look like? I hope so bad they're vintage - - whether authentic or replicas. Either way.

If they do go with vintage streetcars, I hope they use the St. Charles model on Olive. Its plenty wide. Take out two lanes in the middle for a linear park/track. This is opposed to the Canal St. streetcar which is also in a separated median. However the concrete surface makes Canal feel like an old US highway instead of the charming St. Charles. A St. Charles style line would not only add public transport but a perfect bicycle/jogging connection from CWE/Forest Park all the way to Downtown.

RuskiSTL wrote:

Gateway City wrote:What might our streetcars look like? I hope so bad they're vintage - - whether authentic or replicas. Either way.

If they do go with vintage streetcars, I hope they use the St. Charles model on Olive. Its plenty wide. Take out two lanes in the middle for a linear park/track. This is opposed to the Canal St. streetcar which is also in a separated median. However the concrete surface makes Canal feel like an old US highway instead of the charming St. Charles. A St. Charles style line would not only add public transport but a perfect bicycle/jogging connection from CWE/Forest Park all the way to Downtown.

I think the approach should be much more in line with Portland rather then New Orleans for a central corridor street line. Make it modern, reliable and very short waits between streetcars. In other words, I think the goal as expressed is mixed use/office developement between Downtown, midtown and CWE that modern streetcar could help accomplish with a goal to compliment Metrolink strengths but not to duplicate. This proposal reminds me a lot of the Portland's newest streetcar/LRT connecting downtown with the East Side

IF you want vintage, to me this screams a line roughly following Broadway and the river tying in ONSL, Lacledes/Pinnacle/Arch Ground, Soulard, and Budweiser, and so on. Heck, maybe that could be Joe Edwards next venture after the Loop Trolley breaks ground.

A vintage car fits in better with the rest of the way the city looks. If it isn't vintage, it should be the complete opposite extreme, and look like it's from the 30th century. A modern-looking streetcar...Eh. Not appealing. Won't impress anyone. Modern streetcars are uglier than buses, which is really saying something, because buses are just about the ugliest automobiles on the planet. These streetcars have enormous potential for affect the aesthetic of our city, so we have to handle their appearance carefully. Also, the Loop trolleys will be vintage, so if this does connect to that line, it has to carry vintage streetcars as well.

I still have mixed feelings on this project. I fully support the east-west streetcar line, because I see the vision for real, solid development going forward, but the near northside line is a huge mistake at this point. I think taking the streetcar north without having a southern component is a huge mistake, some have mentioned the cost of taking it across the 14th St. Bridge, but I would argue that there are way more options that could be less cost prohibitive like 7th St. and Broadway. I also would like them to hold off on seeking funding until they get their plans fully aligned with Metro. Is there a way we can get Metro involved in the Streetcar vision? It seems like we could get the N-S fully built out for half the price it was original proposed and facilitate neighborhood development across the city. How about a system that envisions a whole bunch of feeder lines connected to the Metrolink spine? I would love to see a real, modern streetcar come back to the city of St. Louis, but I want to see a plan that has the whole city in mind and not this little piecemeal approach we seem to be taking now. I also think it is stupid to propose raising taxes on property near the line, when we just gave Metro a 1/2 cent sales tax increase in 2010 and have heard practically zero info about future plans for expansion, new lines etc. I thought half of the money was being allocated to Metrolink expansion? Also what is E-W Gateways role in all of this? They are the regional planning organization that could put up millions of dollars towards transit infrastructure, but instead funnels money to sprawl projects like the page extension and widening highways.

^Read the post on the front page http://nextstl.com/transportation/city-streetcar. That should answer a lot of your questions.

I think everyone envisions a larger system, but we can only bite off what we can chew for the time being. The east-west portion is the best option for a self-sustaining streetcar. The north line helps get federal funding. IMO, adding a south portion only adds cost to the project without making it any more competitive (federally).

You have to prove this works first before building an entire system. Baby steps.