SFtoSTL wrote:As a former resident of San Francisco now living in downtown St. Louis, I'm an avid consumer of both SF and STL news.
Thanks for posting the pictures and keeping things cooperative rather than a city vs. city statement!
Hey sure thing. While I love SF and all it offers, I realize it's a completely different animal from St. Louis. I look forward to all the changes here and being a part of it all.
I actually like the 1st and 3rd as well. The first looks kinda Draconian and cool, while the 3rd looks more modern. If you click the link in the original post, there are many more pics of the buildings and the transit terminal each includes.
I realize this doesn't really quite relate to St. Louis, but I thought it was cool to see what other cities are doing with skyscraper construction.
SFtoSTL wrote:I realize this doesn't really quite relate to St. Louis, but I thought it was cool to see what other cities are doing with skyscraper construction.
I firmly believe that what is being built, proposed, or discussed in other cities is very relevant to this forum. Certain moderators on here don't always see it that way, however.
Ok I'm getting started on the sketch-up model of the MW tower, and I was wondering if anyone could help me with good numbers to use for the floor heights and also the space between floors. I was thinking 10 foot floor to cieling heights and 9 inches between each floor. That appears to be fairly standard for an office building. Any input would be greatly appreciated. I was also looking for help on a proper height/width ratio to use for the footprint of the building. If no one has better numbers I was going to go 5-1 on height to width, as I think that might be fairly standard as well...?
You have to run HVAC and all other utilities throughtout. THink about a drop ceiling and how much spcae you think is above it. About 2 feet, give or take a few inches.
Right now, Charlotte has the tightest office market for any US major metropolitan downtown at only 3% vacancy, and yet only three new major office buildings are under construction, each mixed use (cultural attractions and hotels) and each under 50 stories. It would seem the age of a predominantly office skyscraper has past.
While these projects won't dramatically alter the skyline like the Bank of America and Hearst towers, they will still add more density to downtown. Again, IMHO, three buildings all under fifty stories are better than one building approching 100 stories, as then the density is spread out over many more blocks. Like many second-tier cities, Charlotte has too much surface parking surrounding its CBD. Luckily, the parking lots are quickly dwindling. IOW, an 81-story building in St. Louis could get rid of one parking lot, but four 20-story buildings could get rid of four such lots.
At the same time, there is now a 29-month supply of condos citywide (that's even accounting for Charlotte's growth stream of 50 new residents a day) with most of the downtown construction continuing to be residential, including several projects over 30 stories. I don't understand then why downtown office hasn't kept up with downtown housing booms across the US, even in markets where the office supply is so obviously failing to keep up with demand?
While these projects won't dramatically alter the skyline like the Bank of America and Hearst towers, they will still add more density to downtown. Again, IMHO, three buildings all under fifty stories are better than one building approching 100 stories, as then the density is spread out over many more blocks. Like many second-tier cities, Charlotte has too much surface parking surrounding its CBD. Luckily, the parking lots are quickly dwindling. IOW, an 81-story building in St. Louis could get rid of one parking lot, but four 20-story buildings could get rid of four such lots.
That's exactly how I feel. I'll take two 40s over one 80.
hollyhiller wrote:I hate to be a "Debbie Downer", this only being my 2nd post and all.
But aren't some of you a little too optimistic? I don't see St. Louis ever
having an 81 story skyscraper.
This tower is for all intensive purposes and of this moment right now, not going to happen. That's not really what's at issue here. I personally do see stl eventually having a tower that large in the not so distant future...although I doubt it will be built by MW. Even if MW was set on building this project, I doubt we would hear much about it until after their springfield project is at least well underway/completed. This would easily be the largest project this company will have ever attempted, by FAR, and therefore would require what would amount to the entire company on only this project until it is finished. That is still a way off.
southslider wrote:At the same time, there is now a 29-month supply of condos citywide (that's even accounting for Charlotte's growth stream of 50 new residents a day) with most of the downtown construction continuing to be residential, including several projects over 30 stories. I don't understand then why downtown office hasn't kept up with downtown housing booms across the US, even in markets where the office supply is so obviously failing to keep up with demand?
My own personal feeling is that the upside of suburban office construction is still too great for most companies to pass up. It's cheaper and closer to most of companies' workers. The downtown housing boom you talk about seems more like a niche high end segment of the population rather than a true broad-based residential revival - at the very least not enough to fuel a parallel boom in office space.
Perhaps Charlotte's downtown residential demographics are different than STL or other cities? But my feeling is that it's mostly the higher-end condo type development that we see in other places, IOW not practical for most of a company's employees.
I think you correctly point out that perhaps the age of the tall downtown office tower has passed, except as the occasional vanity project for a corporation with deep pockets, it's just not practical for most companies and thus we see the relatively stagnant downtown office markets in places like St. Louis. Even tall mixed-use towers would seem to be more the exception than the rule in all but the most expensive real-estate markets.
newstl2020 wrote:I personally do see stl eventually having a tower that large in the not so distant future...
I just don't see STL's downtown market supporting any of these "super tall" buildings, especially with all the new infrastructure (the new I-64) being built along the I-64/270 corridors which will fuel the already healthy office market there. Perhaps it could happen as a luxury hotel/residential type project...but as southslider points out there are so many open lots in and around downtown as to make the idea seem rather ludicrous any time in the foreseeable future.
St. Louis' downtown/CBD has the cheapest average Class A office rates in the region. It also has the most space by far as a submarket. The demand for downotown office space should have red lights flashing at City Hall. While it has stopped hemorrhaging businesses, I think it is far from healthy. Landlord's murder each other for existing tenants. Remember, no NEW office tower construction since 1989.
I read a study of population migration and it said that jobs follow population trends with a 10-15 year lag. This makes sense as the decision makers want offices close to their residence as well as close to most of their employees and can't just move the offices where they are right after they make a residential move. Get the decision makers and more of the population downtown, wait 10-15 years, then hopefully the jobs will follow.
It sucks that it'll take so long, but it took 50+ years from the city to fall from it's peak to it's low point. I think we all agree that it's back on the upswing now, but I don't think it's realistic to expect things to change that much in the short time since the resurgence began.
In case any of you were wondering, as an update to an article I posted a few weeks ago about San Francisco building their own 80+ story building, it looks like they have picked a final design. Unfortunately, IMHO, it's the least interesting of the contenders:
I'm in the Bay now and they are already building a 50+ story building next to the Bay Bridge. Looks like there skyline will no longer be defined by the pyramid building.
keef227 wrote:San Francisco is cool and all, but what about our tower. MW does not seem to want to say yes or no on building a business tower downtown.
I'd say there's probably some competition to attract a first call tenant with BPV, TBD and quite a few lots that could be developed. These things come together only when the combination is just right. So if BPV or TBD lands a big company and builds a 30-40 story tower, maybe that decreases the chances of an 80-story tower . . .
I know I'm echoing a lot of people on this post, but it would be cool to see some more 30 to 40 story buildings going up before the big one. It would mean more businesses coming back to downtown st Louis, and it would look better. I'm still hoping for Centene [-o<.
