Powell Hall

pattimagee · PostMar 29, 2022#1012022-03-29T16:10+00:00

Historic preservation, being a good steward of their city, resource and material conservation, there are plenty of reasons...

All that said, I understand the numbers have to work, I was mostly hoping the numbers would break even... I don't expect the symphony to sink their time in... I would love for them to get an honest idea from their contractor that they'll be hiring to understand if its truly feasible knowing some of their patrons, like myself, would want the building saved. Then just be honest when they demolish it and say we didn't want to spend the money on the historic building.

But I fully expect it to be demolished, its just sad there are so few options.

STLEnginerd · PostMar 29, 2022#1022022-03-29T16:14+00:00

On net it is definitely high risk of being money losing venture which is why no private business could take it on as an investment. But his point is valid in so much that its not all just a money pit. There is value created which would then be extracted on a sale.

There is no way cost to move is 15k though this thing is 4000+ sqft with 3 stories of brick and stone. The house they moved for NGA was comparable and cost 250K (previous link). (also check out EHM - Extreme Home Movers website). I was guessing 300K for the move and 100K for site prep of the new location. There is some significant restoration that needs done as well (copper awning and gables on the exterior, not sure about the interior) so i threw out 150k but that may be way low when you start talking about electric HVAC, etc. I am not sure if or why it was condemned though i think it was in active use 5ish years ago. A typical renovation would also look at interest payments closing cost, etc. Ideally it would be located somewhere where it could appraise for more than 750k not including land cost.

I could see it coming close to that on some of the lots closer to the core of Grand Center. Unfortunately not at the Sam Smith site.

Third Baptist, SLU or Grand Center Inc COULD donate or sell some small piece of their land holdings to accommodate this move, but its an open question whether they would ever entertain doing that for the sake of preservation. Not sure who is sufficiently organized to even come up with a actionable plan.

pattimagee · PostMar 29, 2022#1032022-03-29T16:19+00:00

^thanks - I was just pulling from the first few that I saw.

I did see a historic preservations site say that you can typically bet 75%-100%+ of the home value.

"Take the 124-year old, 3,000-square-foot Mackenzie House on the Wayne State University campus in Detroit that will be uprooted in 2019 to make space for a new lobby and performance complex. It’ll be a $750,000 project to just go around the block."

lobot3000 · PostMar 29, 2022#1042022-03-29T16:20+00:00

I get it, but lets compare apples to apples. I'd say this isn't as bad as the many houses I've seen demolished around the symphony and its literally a grass field left - and at least it isn't a parking lot (ie all of those slu parking lots around there). This building isn't the same as say the saucer or the AAA building or even the tragedy that was the demolishment of San Luis apartments for a parking lot. It isn't even one of the last of an architectural style in the nation - like the googie Chinese restaurant a block over.

Would it be great to save the building? Absolutely.

I just don't see how it gets saved without outside money coming in to help and fast, since it isn't in a review district and pleas of "well its a nice old building" to the symphony isn't going to get it saved.

dbInSouthCity · PostMar 29, 2022#1052022-03-29T16:42+00:00

The “yeah this is bad but not as bad as other people doing the same thing in the past” argument is a gift that keeps giving if you want to just demolish buildings indefinitely

STLEnginerd · PostMar 29, 2022#1062022-03-29T16:45+00:00

hmm i would disagree with most of that. No building is like any other when it comes to preservation. Each building torn down around there was likely its own mini tragedy and each successive one an even worse. Taste is relative but to say unequivocally that the preservation value is somehow measurably less than a bunch of MCM buildings that are half its age and which where literally built on the foundations of this house's demolished contemporaries is a little baffling. Such a weird comparison.

I get the symphony is not going to save it. I get that it has to be moved or its gone. What i would hope is that the symphony will allow an as yet unidentified, independent organization time and space to coordinate a solution that does not end with the house as a giant pile of bricks.

MattnSTL · PostMar 29, 2022#1072022-03-29T17:03+00:00

The expansion doesn't make economic sense or they wouldn't have to be raising money through donations, so let's toss out the argument that moving the house needs to pay for itself. Which is fine. Not everything should be framed in capitalist evaluations. We all make economically irrational decisions all the time. This is about our shared cultural heritage as a City in both a world-class symphony and world-class architecture. Let's not make them mutually exclusive.

Put it out there that some symphony supporter can be the champion of this effort with a specific donation to move the house, and they can slap their name on it and get all the public adoration for doing it.

I also see no evidence of a condemnation in City records. The house may need to be renovated to update systems and finishes like all buildings need every few decades, but condemnation is a specific term that can only be done by the City. Symphony leadership and architects can say that all they want, but it's a structurally solid building by all appearances. And as the owner, the symphony and previous owners were responsible for that maintenance just like anyone else. Only neglect can be blamed for any issues.

Since we will likely lose the house to lack of imagination, I wonder if they have at least considered deconstruction? Almost every component of a sound building like this has salvage value.

lobot3000 · PostMar 29, 2022#1082022-03-29T17:14+00:00

STLEnginerd wrote: ↑
Mar 29, 2022
hmm i would disagree with most of that. No building is like any other when it comes to preservation. Each building torn down around there was likely its own mini tragedy and each successive one an even worse. Taste is relative but to say unequivocally that the preservation value is somehow measurably less than a bunch of MCM buildings that are half its age and which where literally built on the foundations of this house's demolished contemporaries is a little baffling. Such a weird comparison.

I get the symphony is not going to save it. I get that it has to be moved or its gone. What i would hope is that the symphony will allow an as yet unidentified, independent organization time and space to coordinate a solution that does not end with the house as a giant pile of bricks.

I guess I would disagree that an architectural style that is one of the last in the USA vs one that we still have quite a few of in the City let alone in the nation (see Compton heights or Central West end) is worth more in terms of history and effort to save. There are very few examples of that left and I think it was an interesting style worthy to be saved. I'm not saying we shouldn't save both, I merely saying that I personally would fight harder to save the unique style vs the other. Its why the saucer was worth the trouble to save and others haven't been.

Deepredarchi · PostMar 29, 2022#1092022-03-29T18:20+00:00

I agree that the saucer is something well worth keeping as it is incredibly unique. Unfortunately, the saucer was built in a time when our leaders bulldozed as much city as they could. Aerials from the mid 20th Century (the one attached from 1958) show the incredible amount of empty lots all over the city. A close look into Grand Center is enough to say that much of the housing stock was gone for well over 60 years, before the Saucer was built. It is disappointing that so much of our heritage was so easily destroyed.

I forward the argument that the old house should be saved. Sure, the "style" can still be seen around the city, but there is no exact replica. Also, It is amazing that it and a few others survived the bombardment of the mid 20th Century. Their existence is a last living legacy, a proof, of what the neighborhood once was. It was a public display of the pride our ancestors had in their neighborhood, not to mention all the wealth they poured into it. Erasing these homes is erasing history. The place that our ancestors created will be lost and forgotten, besides maybe a tombstone (look at Gaslight Square).

symphonicpoet · PostMar 30, 2022#1102022-03-30T07:04+00:00

^^I suspect more of us have been backstage at Powell than you would guess. Further, this isn't an either/or proposition. I think we can support music and architecture at the same time.

I'll leave the rest of my good natured snark unsaid, but let me say this in the nicest way possible . . .

You really do sound like you play in the symphony.

STLAPTS · PostMar 30, 2022#1112022-03-30T14:32+00:00

STLEnginerd wrote: ↑
Mar 29, 2022
On net it is definitely high risk of being money losing venture which is why no private business could take it on as an investment. But his point is valid in so much that its not all just a money pit. There is value created which would then be extracted on a sale.

There is no way cost to move is 15k though this thing is 4000+ sqft with 3 stories of brick and stone. The house they moved for NGA was comparable and cost 250K (previous link). (also check out EHM - Extreme Home Movers website). I was guessing 300K for the move and 100K for site prep of the new location. There is some significant restoration that needs done as well (copper awning and gables on the exterior, not sure about the interior) so i threw out 150k but that may be way low when you start talking about electric HVAC, etc. I am not sure if or why it was condemned though i think it was in active use 5ish years ago. A typical renovation would also look at interest payments closing cost, etc. Ideally it would be located somewhere where it could appraise for more than 750k not including land cost.

I could see it coming close to that on some of the lots closer to the core of Grand Center. Unfortunately not at the Sam Smith site.

Third Baptist, SLU or Grand Center Inc COULD donate or sell some small piece of their land holdings to accommodate this move, but its an open question whether they would ever entertain doing that for the sake of preservation. Not sure who is sufficiently organized to even come up with a actionable plan.

I had a similar building in size and designed that needed to be moved. Received three quotes. 300k-500k was range.

STLEnginerd · PostMar 30, 2022#1122022-03-30T14:33+00:00

MattnSTL wrote: ↑
Mar 29, 2022
The expansion doesn't make economic sense or they wouldn't have to be raising money through donations, so let's toss out the argument that moving the house needs to pay for itself. Which is fine. Not everything should be framed in capitalist evaluations. We all make economically irrational decisions all the time. This is about our shared cultural heritage as a City in both a world-class symphony and world-class architecture. Let's not make them mutually exclusive.

The desire to save the structure is not motivated by capitalism but the availability of funds to achieve the goal is. If there was actually a high potential to make a return on investment then there would be a deep bench of interested parties with plenty of money. The chasm between saving the structure (or not) is probably a few hundred thousand dollars and while that is a significant sum it doesn't seem like that much in the grand scheme but the total amount of capital available is like 3/4 of a million or more so the trick is finding a path to putting that much money in play with the full expectation that in the end they will realize a net loss of a few hundred thousand. The end state is still just binary; Saved or Demoed.

I guess i am wondering if simply starting a Kickstarter that would donate 300K? to the symphony conditioned on saving and restoring the structure, would that do it. They could restore it in place, incorporate it into the expansion and keep the money. Or use it to fund the move, sell the property post move and keep the net. The symphony is a worthy organization so if they came out net ahead i think that seems fine to me and they have an architectural firm and contractor lined up to build the addition and this could just be added to that scope of work.

What would be enough to push the symphony to do the right thing...?

To me any other potential solution sounds way to complicated to actually reach the end goal, which is to save the structure.

pattimagee · PostMar 30, 2022#1132022-03-30T14:56+00:00

I think the Kickstarter is a good idea... but $300K feels pretty steep for a non-product-type Kickstarter with only a local reach... unless you can score a few single, big donors to help out.

However... Powell does already have a product. There are 2500 seats at Powell Hall... you could do a charity PR-type show to "help us save this house" - all proceeds go to support the move of the house.

Now... would that effort fill 2500 seats for $100 average ticket? idk... but maybe? Powell would have to spend time on this... which is wasted time, but good PR is worth something.

Thanks for those quotes STLAPTS!

debaliviere · PostMar 30, 2022#1142022-03-30T15:00+00:00

Does Grand Center Inc. still exist? This would be a good opportunity for them to step up and help.

dredger · PostMar 30, 2022#1152022-03-30T18:13+00:00

debaliviere wrote: ↑
Mar 30, 2022
Does Grand Center Inc. still exist? This would be a good opportunity for them to step up and help.

Maybe another thought is Pulitzer and their housing development as another avenue.. Utilize the lot that is being offered for free, move and rehab as a for profit/rent or even as affordable housing if it could be rehabbed into a multi dwelling unit

STLEnginerd · PostMar 30, 2022#1162022-03-30T20:13+00:00

FWIW Grand Center Inc owns the empty lots on Grandel Square. The one next to the parking lot (3710 Grandel Square) is pretty small for a commerical development so that would be one to potentially target. The lots at Sam Shepard & Theresa are owned by WT Partners on the SW corner and SLU on the SE corner. The lot next to KSDK is owned by 3rd Baptist. And there are a few lots on Locust that are owned by SLU and Kranzberg Art. Most of these are institution that have been land banking but which haven't consolidated enough adjacent to justify a development.

The WT partners property did have an apartment block proposed there.

I threw out Kickstarter because its sort of the in fashion avenue to crowd source money but realistically I'm not sure how much is realistic to raise, or how much it would take to push the symphony toward moving it over demoing it.

I had a similar building in size and designed that needed to be moved. Received three quotes. 300k-500k was range.

Is that strictly for the move, or did it include a new foundation where it was moved to.

If you say 500k includes the new foundation and you get an appropriate lot for free or cheap. Figure 200K reno/restore budget and my goal of appraisal for 750k seems almost achievable. This is damn close to being doable... at least in financial terms. Still a lot of missing pieces obviously.

stlgasm · PostMar 30, 2022#1172022-03-30T21:28+00:00

Sharing an email from Andrew Weil, director of Landmarks Association of St. Louis, that was just sent to all Landmarks members:

Hello friends,

I just wanted to send a brief note to let you know that I don’t think demolition of the Culver House in Grand Center by the SLSO is imminent. We need to remain vigilant, but I have had some very encouraging conversations with people who are in positions of influence over this matter in the last 48 hours and am optimistic. For anyone who is wondering what they might be able to do to participate in the conversation, I would encourage you to reach out to SLSO Board members and voice your concerns in a civil and constructive manner.

I hope that we can all agree that the proposed investment in Powell Hall (a St. Louis City Landmark in its own right) is a wonderful thing for the arts in St. Louis, for Grand Center and for the St. Louis community at large. However, a “win” like this should not necessarily be predicated upon a “loss”; one cultural asset should not be improved by destroying another. That is the kind of thinking that has been inflicting far too much damage on our built environment for far too many decades. It is an especially absurd proposition when one considers the unfortunate abundance of vacant and under-utilized land in the immediate vicinity of the buildings in question.

Again, I think that a satisfactory solution will be found and want you to know that I am actively working on the matter, as are so many of you. Let’s use this opportunity to engage the SLSO as a valued friend and neighbor and articulate a path forward that embraces our shared cultural heritage.

Best wishes on a soggy spring evening J

Andrew B. Weil
Executive Director, Landmarks Association of St. Louis

Sounds somewhat encouraging!

PeterXCV · PostMar 30, 2022#1182022-03-30T21:37+00:00

That's good to hear, though part of me is wondering if this is just Lucy setting up the football for Charlie Brown.

imran · PostMar 30, 2022#1192022-03-30T23:05+00:00

Here’s the list of officers to look through - maybe find a connection and reach out….

STLEnginerd · PostMar 31, 2022#1202022-03-31T15:13+00:00

Definitely encouraging but also sort of diffuses any alternative attempt to save the building. A little transparency to help people understand what can be done to make sure that it lands in the saved column would be good. I'm not talking about laying in front of bulldozers just what if anything is keeping the building from being saved. Acquiring a site, building structural issues, funding, etc.

In the meantime i guess there is nothing to be done except communicate to SLSO our opinions regarding the cultural value of the structure. Incidentally it probably makes sense to communicate in a similarly respectful manner to Grand Center Inc which from their large catalog of banked land could make available a site for relocation that improves the district overall.

pattimagee · PostApr 01, 2022#1212022-04-01T16:11+00:00

Thanks for sharing everyone - I'm just going to send an email to info@slso.org and ask them to "please" forward to applicable board members.

imran · PostApr 01, 2022#1222022-04-01T20:08+00:00

Nathan Jackson has organized a rally at the Culver House at 2 pm tomorrow. Supposed to be 60 degrees

chris fuller · PostApr 01, 2022#1232022-04-01T20:53+00:00

if you must do an open mouth welcome center

urban_dilettante · PostApr 01, 2022#1242022-04-01T22:45+00:00

^ what?

Laife Fulk · PostApr 02, 2022#1252022-04-02T00:16+00:00

Powell Hall

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