Obviously there?s some interest in starting new streetcar lines in St. Louis. This thread will be a place where we can discuss which new lines we want to see, with the eventual goal of producing a plan for one or more lines which we think will be the most valuable.



Some of the benefits of streetcars over buses that are touted by their supporters are: increased ridership, increased economic development along the line, making transit more pleasant for tourists and residents, and improving the ?atmosphere? in the urban environment around them. We should keep these factors, and the extent to which they will affect different routes, in mind when proposing new lines.



We can include areas surrounding the city in the discussion, although since the city is where the most density is I assume most of the discussion will center there; we can also look at the trolleybus option (electric buses that run on overhead wires) in some places. Finally, I think we should also discuss different ways of funding new lines, since cost vs. benefit seems to be a lively issue whenever streetcars are brought up.



A thread already exists discussing a Fantasy Grand trolley line, it might be worth reviewing, some other ideas were brought up there as well.



So which lines do you think would be most successful, or which do you just plain want to see?



I?ll go ahead and put my two cents in: I think Downtown and Grand Center need to be connected, Metrolink just doesn?t cut it. My preference would be for a line starting at the Landing and running down Washington to Grand.

The Max in KC utilizes an 'exclusive' lane for it's service during rush hour. Cars aren't supposed to park in in or even use it during rush hour, but cars still park there and the bus had to maneuver into the auto lanes to avoid them. In general I'm not a fan of taking away a parking lane for busses, especially if the road can handle large volumes. Signal Prioritization (as some busses in LA use) would require a massive upgrade of our vintage signals in St. Louis.



What I like when it comes to streetcars is the modern version. People prefer speed when it comes to mass transit and a vintage streetcar would flop IMO unless it served a small area(i.e Bottle District-Arch-Ballpark Village, Delmar Loop-Forest Park MetroLink). Some areas may not be conducive to running a streetcar down the middle of the street like Gravois or Kinghighway. Steve Patterson posted this picture on his website and it intrigues me. This is in Portland and as you can see the streetcar runs in the right hand traffic lane, IMO this would be much safer to embark/disembark especially on the high volume roadways.







I recommend going to this link and scrolling through the other Portland examples:



Image Source

bikin'_man wrote: to be a devil's advocate, wouldn't law makers say, "why do they need wires, just give them more busses."

One reason I like the trollyebus or electric bus option is there is virtually no noise associated with the vehicles, which IMO vastly improves the experience of walking down the sidewalk; they also run on a fixed route, as streetcars do. A trolleybus would obviously require a fraction of the startup costs of a streetcar line. This type of approach might be best for Grand, as it would cause minimal disruption to be installed.



However, when considering installation of streetcar lines, it helps to keep this in mind:

Urban Review St. Louis wrote:Portland's line was built at a rate of 3 blocks in 3 weeks.

A bus is a bus is a bus is a bus.

I like the idea of a starter line from downtown to the Theatre District (ideally continuing to the CWE in the future). Using the Portland streetcar pictured. Combined with giving incentives for transit & pedestrian friendly development within a block of the street car line. Creating a spine from which we could expand and strengthen.



It would be extremely important to focus on the nearby development. We don't want a streetcar that goes through nowhere to get nowhere (Tampa). It would be a failure that would scuttle support of any further lines.



If that development is not likely, I would prefer the starter line go into a highly developed area with lots of residential and commercial. Perhaps the Near South Side.



PS: I have no interest in a BRT. Perhaps it could be used to serve suburbs where Metrolink or Streetcars are not practical. Certainly not for our core city and major transportation routes.

bikin man, you make good points and BRT could certainly be useful in some places. And who knows, maybe you are totally correct, though I don't like the BRT lines I have seen.

^Do you know of any private companies that are offering to build streetcars in St. Louis? If so, I want to hear their proposals.

This privately funded transportation you keep bringing up happened because transportation functioned a lot differently when the original streetcar lines were built. They were built, for one, before the auto boom and were initially designed for wealthy people living further from the city who could afford this form of transportation. Only after the auto boom did the streetcars become cheaper and generally used by a different demographic. When public transportation was built by private companies it was just that - Private transportation. It was more expensive and was used by the wealthy. This is why the working class neighborhoods were in the inner ring of downtown nearest the factories, because the wealthy could afford to live further away and pay for transportation. I think its extremely silly to think that what worked in the late 19th century will necessarily work in the early 21st.



I'm not saying streetcars won't work at all, I'm just saying that they are not the type of investment that I think private companies are going to want to risk in the St. Louis of 2006 with all of its highways and automobiles. At this point I don't think a cohesive urban transportation plan is going to come through individual private investments that would, quite honestly, be very risky. The only way we are going to change St. Louis into an thriving, healthy, urban environment is through the committment of a caring community, through the aid of government and tax incentives and, yes, the partnership of the private sector. But we can't rely entirely on the private! There is a reason why there are no private proposals for public transportation in St. Louis.

I suspect a private company would have to charge very high admission to justify the cost of installing a streetcar, and could thus be a disservice to some of it's core consumers. A case could be made for public funding, or possibly a public-private partnership, based on economic development, improving transit experience for tourists to areas the city wants to show off, and creating buzz around certain neighborhoods. All of these are hard to quantify, but a good argument can be made.



btw thanks for posting the pic b&m, it helps to have an idea of what we're talking about. we might be able to get a nice streetscape shot of South Grand or Grand Center and superimpose a streetcar on it to get people more excited about the idea.

stlmike wrote:When public transportation was built by private companies it was just that - Private transportation.

Any transportation system whether publicly or privately built, unless there is a immense pool of funds or capital, must build profitable lines first until the infrastructure is dense enough that less profitable lines can affordably be built by taking advantage of existing infrastructure.



There was a day too when flight or train travel before it were too expensive for all but the most wealthy.



Either way the choice of the initial line has a lot to determine the overall sucess such projects.

I think its extremely silly to think that what worked in the late 19th century will necessarily work in the early 21st.

Mike, even though I don't agree with all your points about pubic vs. private transport, I certainly agree with this one. If you look at this sentence again, it's actually an argument against streetcars.



I'd love to see a streetcar on Grand, not because I think it will be cost-effective or because it will do much for development, but just because it would be cool. Unfortunately, coolness like this comes with a hefty price tag. Still, maybe it would be worthwhile, in the interests of creating a more vibrant urban environment?



Today's urbanists often seem to overlook an important fact about the urban environments of the past: They were by-products of the huge industrial growth the U.S. experienced in the 19th and early 20th centuries. In most cases, they were a means to an end.



New Urbanism, in contrast, sees urbanism as an end in itself. This is a fundamental shift in thinking and most people are not yet comfortable with it; just look at the sprawl all around us that continues unchecked. Until we can convince more people that urban environments are the place to be, projects like streetcars (not to mention light rail) will face big funding hurdles.

I don't think I was making an argument against streetcars. I was merely saying that if streetcars are going to work in the 21st century, then that will be because they were approached differently than they were in the 19th century. There are many reasons why streetcars functioned successfully in St. Louis in the late 19th and early 20th century that are simply not the case today. I don't think ANYONE who is seriously considering the construction of a streetcar line would not consider these differences.

stl555 wrote: My preference would be for a line starting at the Landing and running down Washington to Grand.

This would be a good pilot project. I think we need to start small and this route, I think, would be hugely successful.

LouLou wrote:I'd love to see a streetcar on Grand, not because I think it will be cost-effective or because it will do much for development, but just because it would be cool. Unfortunately, coolness like this comes with a hefty price tag. Still, maybe it would be worthwhile, in the interests of creating a more vibrant urban environment?

I think you hit on the dilemma here. People keep trying to justify the costs by increased ridership and economic development along the line. These factors may exist, but let's just be honest and say that what we really like about streetcars is that they are more pleasant than a bus and add vibrancy to an urban street in a way that we can't really measure. This may be justification enough for us to consider them.

If a private company wants to build them, I'm all for it. But they don't. The only streetcar line that is actually being built seems to be treated more like a novelty than anything else. It goes from the loop to the History Museum. Has anyone here ever used a bus? I use them all the time and they are very practical. Many cities use them in addition to their rail service and they are widely used. Many bus routes in St. Louis are downright succesfull. Why replace them? I don't think its worth spending all this money and putting all of this effort into something that just seems cooler than something that is already fully functional to begin with. St. Louis ought to focus more on completing MetroLink. I admit, it'd be cool to have streetcars and it's great to fantasize but I think we all need to drink a cool glass of reality and realize that the days of extended and thriving streetcar networks probably aren't going to come back. At least not in the near future.



edit:

I just want to clarify, I'm not against streetcars. I just think don't think its the kind of thing we should be spending money on at this point.

I use buses from time to time, and you're right, they can be practical way to get around. But I'm also considering how we can take a few of our better urban environments to the next level, increasing their popularity with both tourists and locals. I don't think anyone's arguing for an "extensive" network of streetcars (at least I'm not). I'd like to see perhaps 2 lines hitting a lot of areas that are not served by metrolink and may never be (S. Grand, Grand Center, some of the near southside neighborhoods). Streetcars are never going to replace buses as cheap, functional public transportation, but in a few areas I think they can be appropriate. I think St. Louis's size and variety of transportation needs can justify having metrolink, busses, and a streetcar or two to fill the spaces in between.



Maybe we should ask why other cities have opted for modern streetcars over a busline. Does anyone have more info on Portland's lines? why they went the streetcar route (so to speak)?

Bastiat wrote:Do we want to be Hong Kong/Dubai or do we want to be Pyongyang?

None of those places appeal to me as a role model. I would rather be a Boston, London, or Barcelona. All three cities are prosperous, beautiful, and have good transit. Do they exist without taxes & regulations?



Do you really think St. Louis, Missouri is going to eliminate government? Must every thread on transit, education, and everything else be derailed so we can discuss the advantages and disadvantages of eliminating government or returning to the robber baron era? Please don't take that as an attack, you often make valid points and all ideas are welcome as far as I am concerned. But, if we want to discuss the possibility of starting a streetcar line and where it should go, the first step isn't going to be eliminating government. As a practical matter, that simply isn't going to happen.