Also, a Locust line could cross Grand, turn south on Vandy and shoot out Manchester past Gillworld and on to (I'm dreaming here) a ripped down St. Louis Marketplace that becomes something useful, interesting and profitable.
I agree connecting downtown and Grand Center would be great. My preference would be for a straight shot from the Landing to Grand via Washington, taking advantage of the development potential on Washington west of Jefferson. But you're right, Locust has a lot of potential too, and would also serve the Wash. Ave. area. Maybe it could head west on Locust to Jefferson, then take Washington the rest of the way. Or head west on Locust/Olive the whole way, although I'm not as familiar with what Locust looks like west of Jefferson.
We seem to be looking at electric bus lines and streetcar lines as opposed to each other. Why do we have to replace current bus routes completely with a streetcar line? We could convert buses on a line to electric buses and add rail for streetcars. Both the buses and streetcars would use the same overhead wire. For example, if we had a Grand line, we would run wire for the entire bus line, but only lay rail where we want a streetcar line. Some advantages include:
Along Market St. in San Francisco, they have a historic streetcar line, several electric bus lines, and a subway running. That street has three different means of public transit. The streetcar line continues north along Embarcadero, which doesn't have much development between Market St. (Ferry Plaza) and Pier 39.
Also, I really hate the look of the streetcars in Portland and prefer the vintage streetcars. I don't like the bulky look of the Portland streetcars that I've seen in the pictures (maybe they are different in real life). While I would not be opposed to having a modern-looking streetcar, I think the design should look like less of a presence on the street. That will come from a more slender-looking streetcar like the vintage lines.
- We would have increased headway (even if the buses decreased its headway, the streetcars would make up for it)
- Room for expansion (we lay more track to expand the streetcar line; the wire is already there). This makes it easy to build this system gradually (build the wire first and start running buses on it. Then, add track in the road where necessary).
- Provide choice for riders
- Make all public transportation along that route silent and pollution-free
Along Market St. in San Francisco, they have a historic streetcar line, several electric bus lines, and a subway running. That street has three different means of public transit. The streetcar line continues north along Embarcadero, which doesn't have much development between Market St. (Ferry Plaza) and Pier 39.
Also, I really hate the look of the streetcars in Portland and prefer the vintage streetcars. I don't like the bulky look of the Portland streetcars that I've seen in the pictures (maybe they are different in real life). While I would not be opposed to having a modern-looking streetcar, I think the design should look like less of a presence on the street. That will come from a more slender-looking streetcar like the vintage lines.
I love the new modern streetcars, it's very European looking. Reminds me of watching Bourne Identity or something. Just seeing the beautiful old architecture of Berlin or something, and then seeing a big metal tube float by just is very appealing to me.
I'd also like to say that I think our first line should be the Chouteau line. Take it from Broadway all the way west to McCausland. That could also serve Dogtown, as well as Laf. Square, and the northern end of the near south side. That would really help development just south of the stadium, hopefully creating a new little neighborhood, and getting rid of much of the crap that is currently there. And also helping the businesses that are already in that area, like BBs and Broadway Oyster Bar.
Next, I think a Broadway line would serve the city well. Run it down to Soulard, and North to ONSL, and maybe even all the way to Hyde Park. It wouldn't have to stay on Broadway, it could switch over to N Florissant, maybe on Cass or Cole, then serving the Bottle District, as well as the Neighborhood Gardens. I would terminate that line at Grand (for the time being) on the North, and maybe Bates or Holly Hills on the South.
Then, I think you look into building up your downtown transportation. Taking a line down Locust (as previously mentioned) or even Olive, because Wash Ave is a street that I wouldn't touch. I'd also want to run a line down Market, probably wrapping that line around the end of the Gateway Mall, or all the way to Jefferson.
At that point, I think you start looking into Grand (both north and south), Gravois, and more.
But that's just me.
I'd also like to say that I think our first line should be the Chouteau line. Take it from Broadway all the way west to McCausland. That could also serve Dogtown, as well as Laf. Square, and the northern end of the near south side. That would really help development just south of the stadium, hopefully creating a new little neighborhood, and getting rid of much of the crap that is currently there. And also helping the businesses that are already in that area, like BBs and Broadway Oyster Bar.
Next, I think a Broadway line would serve the city well. Run it down to Soulard, and North to ONSL, and maybe even all the way to Hyde Park. It wouldn't have to stay on Broadway, it could switch over to N Florissant, maybe on Cass or Cole, then serving the Bottle District, as well as the Neighborhood Gardens. I would terminate that line at Grand (for the time being) on the North, and maybe Bates or Holly Hills on the South.
Then, I think you look into building up your downtown transportation. Taking a line down Locust (as previously mentioned) or even Olive, because Wash Ave is a street that I wouldn't touch. I'd also want to run a line down Market, probably wrapping that line around the end of the Gateway Mall, or all the way to Jefferson.
At that point, I think you start looking into Grand (both north and south), Gravois, and more.
But that's just me.
all of those lines sound very sensible.
I agree that the Chouteau/Manchester line should be our first, simply because of the enormous development potential of Chouteau's Landing/Lake, the ballpark area, and the FPSE neighborhood. I would suggest that at first it should terminate in FPSE, maybe at Tower Grove Ave., and perhaps a later extension would take it out to McCausland or even Maplewood. I think shorter lines with the most development potential possible is a good way to get started.
I was just out driving down Locust today to get a feel for the area and holy crap, there is a lot of potential on that street west of Jefferson. Lots of smaller industrial/warehouse type buildings as well as many buildings with ground floor retail space, I couldn't believe it was sitting unused! A line that connected the Landing and Grand Center via Locust (starting on wash. ave.) would be great. It seems areas one block in either direction feel the development bump from a streetcar line, so Olive and Washington would benefit as well.
here is a list of notable places such a line would serve:
Landing
Convention Center
Famous-Barr/Macy's
Old Post Office
St. Louis Public Library
AG Edwards
Grand Center
intriguing, no?
I agree that the Chouteau/Manchester line should be our first, simply because of the enormous development potential of Chouteau's Landing/Lake, the ballpark area, and the FPSE neighborhood. I would suggest that at first it should terminate in FPSE, maybe at Tower Grove Ave., and perhaps a later extension would take it out to McCausland or even Maplewood. I think shorter lines with the most development potential possible is a good way to get started.
I was just out driving down Locust today to get a feel for the area and holy crap, there is a lot of potential on that street west of Jefferson. Lots of smaller industrial/warehouse type buildings as well as many buildings with ground floor retail space, I couldn't believe it was sitting unused! A line that connected the Landing and Grand Center via Locust (starting on wash. ave.) would be great. It seems areas one block in either direction feel the development bump from a streetcar line, so Olive and Washington would benefit as well.
here is a list of notable places such a line would serve:
Landing
Convention Center
Famous-Barr/Macy's
Old Post Office
St. Louis Public Library
AG Edwards
Grand Center
intriguing, no?
I think any line serving those major areas would get heavy ridership.
Does anybody have some numbers comparing funding for Metro vs highway construction/maintanince in the St. Louis region?
I will disagree. The Chouteau line will likely get transit access if Metro ever gets moving again. The SOulard area will likely not see rail lines, period. Also, I can think of little better than connecting one of the city's most prominent rehabs with downtown, helping strengthen the sometimes tenuous connection between the two. I think it would have much stronger inital ridership and would be a better first attempt at a line. THe others are all great and will ultiamtely prove viable. But the first line is something that should clearly be head and sholders able to suceed, and I think a soulard line would do that.
Besides what could be better for the virbancy of downtown and bolstering its retail for the future than making sure that people can ride a streetcar in shop, and go back home without worrying about parking?
Besides what could be better for the virbancy of downtown and bolstering its retail for the future than making sure that people can ride a streetcar in shop, and go back home without worrying about parking?
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I live in Soulard now (I know - I should change my handle) and I always thought that 12th street (aka Tucker) would be the pperfect street for a line (rail or electric bus). Its wider. Goes right up to the side of lafayette square - runs righ by the city hospital - runs through the heart of soulard - would encourage development on bohemian hill - runs smack into the brewery - starts at Keil and it would make a lovley scenic tour of the soulard area (also, it would put you two blocks from soulard market).
I'd be shocked if a street car line didn;t serve soulard in the past ... what street did it use? I suspect it was 12th.
I'd be shocked if a street car line didn;t serve soulard in the past ... what street did it use? I suspect it was 12th.
That's a good argument for starting with a near southside line. I think if you're relying on the economic development rationale however, you're going to get some people who say these neighborhoods are doing quite well already. After all, soulard, laf. sq., and benton park are some of the near city neighborhoods that are doing the best. There may be more popular support for starting with a line like this however.
I like the idea of heading down 12th st., I also think it seems natural for a streetcar. You could also say heading down 7th/broadway might catalyze some neighborhood development east of broadway near the riverfront, so that might be an interesting thought. And I still like the idea of it terminating at Lemp/Cherokee. Theoretically I guess you could do that by heading down either broadway or 12th.
Another interesting idea for an initial line might be a downtown/midtown circulator. West on Locust, south on Grand, east on Chouteau, north on Broadway. It serves several of the areas we've been talking about, and provides a good spine for future lines to branch off of.
I like the idea of heading down 12th st., I also think it seems natural for a streetcar. You could also say heading down 7th/broadway might catalyze some neighborhood development east of broadway near the riverfront, so that might be an interesting thought. And I still like the idea of it terminating at Lemp/Cherokee. Theoretically I guess you could do that by heading down either broadway or 12th.
Another interesting idea for an initial line might be a downtown/midtown circulator. West on Locust, south on Grand, east on Chouteau, north on Broadway. It serves several of the areas we've been talking about, and provides a good spine for future lines to branch off of.
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I like the circulator idea ....
as for the development point - I think the areas we mentioned along 12th still need a LOT of development, and I don't really believe that you can just throw a metro line in a largely vacant area and expect it to work. There have to be people that want to ride it for it to take off. I think people would use a line down 12th a lot more than a line down broadway -
I do, however, think a circulator would work - and it could link up well with a line down 12th. I would expand it though and run it all the way to the west end (euclid or kingshighway) .. that big loop could then be biseccted by two north south lines - the 12th line (which ideally would continue north past market and hit old notth st. louis and the bottle district) and the grand line (which would run up and down grand).
I think about this way too much
as for the development point - I think the areas we mentioned along 12th still need a LOT of development, and I don't really believe that you can just throw a metro line in a largely vacant area and expect it to work. There have to be people that want to ride it for it to take off. I think people would use a line down 12th a lot more than a line down broadway -
I do, however, think a circulator would work - and it could link up well with a line down 12th. I would expand it though and run it all the way to the west end (euclid or kingshighway) .. that big loop could then be biseccted by two north south lines - the 12th line (which ideally would continue north past market and hit old notth st. louis and the bottle district) and the grand line (which would run up and down grand).
I think about this way too much
Once again the circulator line does much to mimic possible future metrolink lines, like a downtown loop and the southside line. So I say a no on that idea.
While Laf. Square is clearly doing very well, you can go to any number of threads on this forum and see the comments by people that Soulard, while doing well, could be doing alot better. For such an often cited example of city renewal, there are still vacant houses and empty lots. Benton Park is the same way. Alot is happening, but consider how much more could happen with direct transit access to downtown? Moreover, the development potential in adjacent areas like Bohemian Hill and LaSalle Park both offer a chance to see development that unites the near southside into one long string of sucessful neighborhoods with tranist access into downtown. The rail yards, the Ralston and Ameren hq's could all be hit up, linking more major employment sites and any future developments linking downtown and the near southside by transit.
Also Mark's point about ridership is important to remember. In a soulard, Laf. Square, and Benton Park, there exist three areas with growing or decent populations. Now not all, but many may work downtown, creating great trip origin and destination potential for a line.
There would also be tourist demand, linking downtown into Soulard Market and the brewery.
All in all, the southside line offers the best all around opertunites for imediate ridership, long term development potential, and overall sucess of the model of streetcars in St. Louis.
Lines, like the Chouteau or Locust or a near north side line would make great second lines, but none are solid enough for a first line.
While Laf. Square is clearly doing very well, you can go to any number of threads on this forum and see the comments by people that Soulard, while doing well, could be doing alot better. For such an often cited example of city renewal, there are still vacant houses and empty lots. Benton Park is the same way. Alot is happening, but consider how much more could happen with direct transit access to downtown? Moreover, the development potential in adjacent areas like Bohemian Hill and LaSalle Park both offer a chance to see development that unites the near southside into one long string of sucessful neighborhoods with tranist access into downtown. The rail yards, the Ralston and Ameren hq's could all be hit up, linking more major employment sites and any future developments linking downtown and the near southside by transit.
Also Mark's point about ridership is important to remember. In a soulard, Laf. Square, and Benton Park, there exist three areas with growing or decent populations. Now not all, but many may work downtown, creating great trip origin and destination potential for a line.
There would also be tourist demand, linking downtown into Soulard Market and the brewery.
All in all, the southside line offers the best all around opertunites for imediate ridership, long term development potential, and overall sucess of the model of streetcars in St. Louis.
Lines, like the Chouteau or Locust or a near north side line would make great second lines, but none are solid enough for a first line.
markofucity wrote:as for the development point - I think the areas we mentioned along 12th still need a LOT of development, and I don't really believe that you can just throw a metro line in a largely vacant area and expect it to work. There have to be people that want to ride it for it to take off.
The only way I could see it working in a largely vacant area like south broadway or chouteau west of Jefferson is to use the line as a carrot to get developers to take on these areas, thus the line and the developments are built up at once. But folks may be happy with these areas staying largely industrial, that's where you look more at serving places that already exist. And true, Soulard, for all its success, still has a lot of untapped potential. (Just think if tourists could take the streetcar to Vincent's!
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can somebody club someone at the mayor's office over the head and get them to take these ideas seriously????
and I agree - a FULLY developed and dense soulard/lafayette squaer/benton park/bohemia hill area would be an amazing asset ....
and I agree - a FULLY developed and dense soulard/lafayette squaer/benton park/bohemia hill area would be an amazing asset ....
JMedwick wrote:Once again the circulator line does much to mimic possible future metrolink lines, like a downtown loop and the southside line.
So let's lay out the metrolink lines that we're reasonably confident will get built, that way we can be clearer on where a streetcar might be more appropriate. I hadn't heard of a downtown loop. I've heard of a line to south county, what areas would these be serving? Obviously it's best to have these rail options complement each other and link up whenever possible.
markofucity wrote:can somebody club someone at the mayor's office over the head and get them to take these ideas seriously????
well we can't club them (not legally)...but we can publicize this idea once we get it worked out, and hopefully get people talking about it more seriously.
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I still prefer the clubbing idea ....
so much more direct ....
so much more direct ....
One of my main questions regarding this whole charette is the future of MetroLink. Where are these lines going to go? What is MetroLinks overall purpose, vs. the current bus system (future streetcar system) purpose? And what is the difference?
My thoughts are that I don't know enough about those questions to be able to answer them, and then be able to really assess which lines would be best for Link vs. Streetcar.
Is the best thing for South City a line with MetroLink, or a smaller, slower Streetcar? If you're talking about running a line through parts of South City like Soulard, Lafayette Square, and South Grand, then I'd prefer a Streetcar. Those areas are close enough to a MetroLink station that it would be easier to connect via a streetcar, IMO.
My thoughts are that I don't know enough about those questions to be able to answer them, and then be able to really assess which lines would be best for Link vs. Streetcar.
Is the best thing for South City a line with MetroLink, or a smaller, slower Streetcar? If you're talking about running a line through parts of South City like Soulard, Lafayette Square, and South Grand, then I'd prefer a Streetcar. Those areas are close enough to a MetroLink station that it would be easier to connect via a streetcar, IMO.
I forgot but there's a map on the 1st page of the Metrolink expansion thread that shows some future lines, I?m not sure if this is still the current plan, or how long until they're expecting full build-out. You can see a large gap around the near south side.
Maybe if a few streetcars could connect up the neighborhoods closer to downtown, Metrolink could concentrate on getting people into a few key spots from the suburbs. Right now people are expecting it to act as suburban commuter line and streetcar. As you can see, there are a lot of stops on the north side alignment that could taken care of by a streetcar line to this area, allowing Metrolink to have maybe one stop there, and getting people into downtown quicker.
Maybe if a few streetcars could connect up the neighborhoods closer to downtown, Metrolink could concentrate on getting people into a few key spots from the suburbs. Right now people are expecting it to act as suburban commuter line and streetcar. As you can see, there are a lot of stops on the north side alignment that could taken care of by a streetcar line to this area, allowing Metrolink to have maybe one stop there, and getting people into downtown quicker.
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The purpose of MetroLink is a regional transit system. Where these lines go within the City should provide revitalization opportunties and accessible stops for City neighborhoods. But future MetroLink lines are also intended to provide County residents Downtown access, and reverse commuters a quicker transit ride. Hence, the problem with the long, slow ride of streetcars.
Just as there are express buses and local buses, I agree with others that it would be good for the City to have both regional rail (MetroLink) and localized rail (streetcar). Both face funding hurdles, but current funding criteria tends to favor light-rail over streetcars, largely due to the weight of improved travel time savings. And that's savings over current transit (buses and existing MetroLink), not private vehicle travel.
No matter what technology, however, rail transit requires political will-- something desperately lacking in St. Louis. Even along proposed MetroLink lines, aldermen are failing to see what redevelopment potential there is.
Yet there is one exception to St. Louisans' love of the status quo-- Joe Edwards, the man behind the Loop Trolley. Ironically, the area will already have three MetroLink stations, and development has already picked up. Yet, because in this corner of our region, everyone is on board and there is a visible leader, even more rail transit may be in the area's future.
Meanwhile, Soulard, Grand Center, South Grand, Manchester Strip and many other pockets all seem like great candidates for streetcars linking them to nearby but just far enough away MetroLink lines. But who are the visible leaders for these areas? Without any leader, the City lacks vision to even be considering such dramatic transit investment scenarios in these areas. Of course, the Loop Trolley faces the financial hurdle as well, and may never be built. But at least the campaign is there, and credit Joe Edwards for reviving our political will.
Just as there are express buses and local buses, I agree with others that it would be good for the City to have both regional rail (MetroLink) and localized rail (streetcar). Both face funding hurdles, but current funding criteria tends to favor light-rail over streetcars, largely due to the weight of improved travel time savings. And that's savings over current transit (buses and existing MetroLink), not private vehicle travel.
No matter what technology, however, rail transit requires political will-- something desperately lacking in St. Louis. Even along proposed MetroLink lines, aldermen are failing to see what redevelopment potential there is.
Yet there is one exception to St. Louisans' love of the status quo-- Joe Edwards, the man behind the Loop Trolley. Ironically, the area will already have three MetroLink stations, and development has already picked up. Yet, because in this corner of our region, everyone is on board and there is a visible leader, even more rail transit may be in the area's future.
Meanwhile, Soulard, Grand Center, South Grand, Manchester Strip and many other pockets all seem like great candidates for streetcars linking them to nearby but just far enough away MetroLink lines. But who are the visible leaders for these areas? Without any leader, the City lacks vision to even be considering such dramatic transit investment scenarios in these areas. Of course, the Loop Trolley faces the financial hurdle as well, and may never be built. But at least the campaign is there, and credit Joe Edwards for reviving our political will.
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well, let's hope that since the international light rail conference is here in st. louis this year, it may spur interest with some lawmakers. people from all over will be here looking at what we have done, might be impressed that we had to go ever hurdles, get rave reviews, again.
http://www.apta.com/conferences_calendar/lrail
http://www.apta.com/conferences_calendar/lrail
^ some intersting ideas, but ultimatly, not terriably useful as he seems to embrace what this thread has already rejected, particuarly the idea of simply replacing bus lines (Grand), repolcating future metrolink routes (downtown connector), and starting with a line already possessing density and trips.
That is not to say the ideas in the long run are not worth exploring. They, however, are not the stuff of inital lines built as a model of what more can acomplish.
Southslider once again brings up an intersting point, that being leadership. Sadly, he is all too right about the region lacking the balls to get anything done in this field and most of the areas that aren't the loop probably couldn't get this sort of deal done. (The one intersting exception being Vince and Grand Center, which for all of its problems, might have the policital will and contacts to get a line done for the area , but alas they aren't the best at developing good urban projects...)
Ultimatly, I don't know how many of these lines could be built other than with local funding, which so many will not support.
That is not to say the ideas in the long run are not worth exploring. They, however, are not the stuff of inital lines built as a model of what more can acomplish.
Southslider once again brings up an intersting point, that being leadership. Sadly, he is all too right about the region lacking the balls to get anything done in this field and most of the areas that aren't the loop probably couldn't get this sort of deal done. (The one intersting exception being Vince and Grand Center, which for all of its problems, might have the policital will and contacts to get a line done for the area , but alas they aren't the best at developing good urban projects...)
Ultimatly, I don't know how many of these lines could be built other than with local funding, which so many will not support.
you guys may be right about the area lacking the leadership in general, but where there's popular will there's a leader not far behind. As Ghandi said: "There go my people, I must run and catch up with them, for I am their leader". (and everybody always thinks Ghandi and streetcars have nothing in common 
)
Maybe Joe Edward's project will get people talking more about streetcars. Maybe a plan submitted from a group like ours and given a little publicity through the local media can get people taking the possibility seriously, the upside of this is too large to ignore.
As I posted earlier, there are a couple of efforts in Washington to get matching funds for smaller rail systems like the one we're talking about. I could see a limited system of streetcars connecting tourist areas and contributing to major brownfield development as being a trend in urban planning in the next couple of decades. If history is any guide, St. Louis will come in on the tail end of the trend (see: regional light rail, downtown convention center, retro ballpark, reconnecting to the riverfront etc. etc. etc...), too late to see many of the benefits of having something new and exciting. It would be nice to see the City get out in front on one of these trends for a change. With all the people with fond memories of streetcars in this region, it might be possible, I don't know.
)Maybe Joe Edward's project will get people talking more about streetcars. Maybe a plan submitted from a group like ours and given a little publicity through the local media can get people taking the possibility seriously, the upside of this is too large to ignore.
As I posted earlier, there are a couple of efforts in Washington to get matching funds for smaller rail systems like the one we're talking about. I could see a limited system of streetcars connecting tourist areas and contributing to major brownfield development as being a trend in urban planning in the next couple of decades. If history is any guide, St. Louis will come in on the tail end of the trend (see: regional light rail, downtown convention center, retro ballpark, reconnecting to the riverfront etc. etc. etc...), too late to see many of the benefits of having something new and exciting. It would be nice to see the City get out in front on one of these trends for a change. With all the people with fond memories of streetcars in this region, it might be possible, I don't know.