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PostAug 22, 2006#51

Tysalpha wrote:Well, this isn't the first shooting at Northwest Plaza. I don't remember the exact year, but it seems like there was one during Christmastime about 1992-1993. I remember being there a couple of days later, and it was like a ghost town.



But Northwest was already having problems even before that -- anyone remember how once the remodel was completed (about 1990?) on the local news the broadcasts would talk about the "problem" of cruising cars at Northwest? That slow, steady news coverage created fear, and then once a shooting ocurred, it was enough to drive people away.


Thanks- you jogged my memory. I couldn't remember specifically what happened when, so I didn't want to generalize about shootings, violence, etc. Basically, the mall's reputation for violence was established long before the most recent fatal shooting there, so unfortunately the die has already been cast. The number of stores there has decreased, JC Penney left several years ago, and without a comprehensive redevelopment plan, I don't expect the mall (or the perception of it) to get any better at all.


I thought May expanded that Famous when they remodeled in like 1997? Whatever Federated does -- I just hope they don't knock down the rotunda. Granted, that's the ugliest one of the Famous-Barr buildings from that era, but it's still a unique style. I'm still mad at May for tearing down the perfectly good old West County store. :P


I agree. When I can't find what I want at the downtown store, I usually go to the the Galleria or St. Clair Square locations, then to South County or West County.



The St. Clair Square Famous/Macy's is my favorite suburban location- mostly because the men's department is outstanding- and it doesn't seem to get as congested as the Galleria and West County locations. And IMHO- it's the best-looking of the "rotunda" stores- it was the last to be built (1973) and its rotunda is larger than those at Northwest Plaza and South County Center. If I recall correctly, West County's rotunda was quite similar to the one in Fairview Heights. The new store is nice, but I was happy with the old one.
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PostAug 23, 2006#52

Clearly, all these malls reach a tipping point with no return:

Northland (RIP)

St. Louis Centre (almost)

Northwest (almost)

Union Station (almost)

Crestwood



Future: Galleria?



What are mall owners to do?
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PostAug 23, 2006#53

JCity wrote:Future: Galleria?
No way here. This mall is battle tested and consistently reinvests as well as attracts new tennants even though there are a constant stream of newer malls being built.
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PostAug 23, 2006#54

JCity wrote:Clearly, all these malls reach a tipping point with no return:

Northland (RIP)

St. Louis Centre (almost)

Northwest (almost)

Union Station (almost)

Crestwood



Future: Galleria?



What are mall owners to do?


You forgot Jamestown (not as critical as NWP or US, but fast approaching)
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PostAug 23, 2006#55



JCity wrote:

Future: Galleria?


No way here. This mall is battle tested and consistently reinvests as well as attracts new tennants even though there are a constant stream of newer malls being built.




While the investments like The BLVD, the much rummored Galleria expansion, and the addtion of Nordstroms makes the idea of such a dropoff less likely, when West County was first opened, I don't think the idea of such a drop was quite as unlikely as you would think. With declines in Jamestown, NWP and the closing of Northland and RiverRoads, the 'others' that many fear were forced to head south to the Galleria to find the quality shopping everyone seeks. But the Galleria is forunatly anchored well and surrounded many other shopping needs, like Target and Best Buy, making the area much more of a regional draw than West County can ever hope to be.
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PostAug 23, 2006#56

Galleria posts the most revenue/earnings of any local mall. Both Mills and West County havn't come close to their "projections" while Galleria banks. I cite an article from Christmas stating that Galleria was still on top...then again I think it was the Post...
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PostAug 23, 2006#57

TheWayoftheArch wrote:Galleria posts the most revenue/earnings of any local mall. Both Mills and West County havn't come close to their "projections" while Galleria banks. I cite an article from Christmas stating that Galleria was still on top...then again I think it was the Post...


The galleria, Frontnac, and West County are all in such prime locations... I can't see any of the exurb or other suburban taking much from these...Frontnac has it's niche...The Galleria is well the Galleria for crying out loud...and West County is in a perfect location as well... IMO The mills mall is gross... I went there once and it was more like a flea market than a mall..what a dump...!
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PostAug 23, 2006#58

bpe235 wrote:The galleria, Frontnac, and West County are all in such prime locations... I can't see any of the exurb or other suburban taking much from these...Frontnac has it's niche...The Galleria is well the Galleria for crying out loud...and West County is in a perfect location as well... IMO The mills mall is gross... I went there once and it was more like a flea market than a mall..what a dump...!


I think North County can support one great mall- the trouble is- Jamestown, Northwest, and now St. Louis Mills are all fighting for the same piece of pie. The Mills developers apparently don't shy away from oversaturated markets, because similar developments in Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and Nashville have failed to meet initial expectations as well.



It is like a fleamarket inside. I used to go to the Blues practice facility when the Blues were worth watching, and it didn't take long for the mall to develop a downmarket feel, mostly because it never filled even close to its capacity.



As the parent of a three y/o boy, I hate the playground of death in that mall. My son's too old for the babies' play area, and technically he's too young for the main playground. The latter wouldn't be a problem if parents didn't expect the playground equipment to baby-sit their children as they window shop and converse on their mobile phones, but I guess that's another rant for another time. :wink:



The future of retail in North County just looks awful IMHO, despite the significant amount of new home construction at the outer reaches of the area. It would be fine if forces could join together and rehab one of the existing centers adequately or open one quality major shopping destination, but now we've got two dying malls recently joined by an underperforming megamall.
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PostAug 23, 2006#59

bpe235 wrote:The galleria, Frontnac, and West County are all in such prime locations... I can't see any of the exurb or other suburban taking much from these...Frontnac has it's niche...The Galleria is well the Galleria for crying out loud...and West County is in a perfect location as well... IMO The mills mall is gross... I went there once and it was more like a flea market than a mall..what a dump...!


I disagree about the location of West County Center -- it's too far south for anyone north of Page or in St. Charles County. But the bigger issue is HIGHWAY ACCESS. That Manchester / 270 interchange is a mess, especially approaching the mall from SB 270 to EB Manchester. If traffic continues to worsen, this will be the largest problem for that mall.
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PostAug 23, 2006#60

West County Mall is only a mile and half south of Highway 40, thats not to far south at all.
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PostAug 24, 2006#61

Tysalpha wrote:
bpe235 wrote:The galleria, Frontnac, and West County are all in such prime locations... I can't see any of the exurb or other suburban taking much from these...Frontnac has it's niche...The Galleria is well the Galleria for crying out loud...and West County is in a perfect location as well... IMO The mills mall is gross... I went there once and it was more like a flea market than a mall..what a dump...!


I disagree about the location of West County Center -- it's too far south for anyone north of Page or in St. Charles County. But the bigger issue is HIGHWAY ACCESS. That Manchester / 270 interchange is a mess, especially approaching the mall from SB 270 to EB Manchester. If traffic continues to worsen, this will be the largest problem for that mall.


Manchester/270 is hardly a mess. It can be argued that the biggest mess when it comes to intersections is the 40/Brentwood Blvd/170 exchange. That is 10 times worse than 270/Manchester.
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PostAug 24, 2006#62

stlmizzoutiger wrote:
Tysalpha wrote:I disagree about the location of West County Center -- it's too far south for anyone north of Page or in St. Charles County. But the bigger issue is HIGHWAY ACCESS. That Manchester / 270 interchange is a mess, especially approaching the mall from SB 270 to EB Manchester. If traffic continues to worsen, this will be the largest problem for that mall.


Manchester/270 is hardly a mess. It can be argued that the biggest mess when it comes to intersections is the 40/Brentwood Blvd/170 exchange. That is 10 times worse than 270/Manchester.


Well, you are correct that the 64/170/Brentwood interchange is busier and more of a bottleneck. I guess I wasn't clear -- the problem with the 270-Manchester interchange is the suicide attempt that is exiting SB 270 and going east on Manchester towards the mall, which requires cutting across traffic from the far left lane to the far right pretty quickly. Honestly, I don't know whose bright idea this was at MODOT, but they clearly weren't planning to have to drive that way to the mall!



Otherwise, I suppose it's not bad. But I would have favored a single point interchange like the new one at Olive.
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PostAug 24, 2006#63

^If coming from SB 270, one could enter the mall from Ballas instead of Manchester, giving a motorist more time to merge right.
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PostAug 24, 2006#64

stlmizzoutiger wrote:
Tysalpha wrote:
bpe235 wrote:The galleria, Frontnac, and West County are all in such prime locations... I can't see any of the exurb or other suburban taking much from these...Frontnac has it's niche...The Galleria is well the Galleria for crying out loud...and West County is in a perfect location as well... IMO The mills mall is gross... I went there once and it was more like a flea market than a mall..what a dump...!


I disagree about the location of West County Center -- it's too far south for anyone north of Page or in St. Charles County. But the bigger issue is HIGHWAY ACCESS. That Manchester / 270 interchange is a mess, especially approaching the mall from SB 270 to EB Manchester. If traffic continues to worsen, this will be the largest problem for that mall.


Manchester/270 is hardly a mess. It can be argued that the biggest mess when it comes to intersections is the 40/Brentwood Blvd/170 exchange. That is 10 times worse than 270/Manchester.


While it may not be pretty, the current I-270/Manchester intersection is a lot better than it used to be. I grew up in West County and remember mornings where even with no accidents eastbound Manchester would back all the up to Barrett Station Rd. It would usually take 20 minutes to get from the White Castle to getting onto 270.
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PostAug 24, 2006#65

Yes, the Manchester 270 intersection is horrible. While the old one was a stop and go nightmare, at least it didn't encrouage people to race each other to try and criss cross the lanes to get where they want to go.



I always thought the better idea, since MODOT was going to rebuild the intersetion anyway, would have been to create 2 highway exits. 1 exit would have been for Manchester. the 2nd exit would have been directly into the Mall.
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PostAug 24, 2006#66

Tysalpha wrote:
stlmizzoutiger wrote:
Tysalpha wrote:I disagree about the location of West County Center -- it's too far south for anyone north of Page or in St. Charles County. But the bigger issue is HIGHWAY ACCESS. That Manchester / 270 interchange is a mess, especially approaching the mall from SB 270 to EB Manchester. If traffic continues to worsen, this will be the largest problem for that mall.


Manchester/270 is hardly a mess. It can be argued that the biggest mess when it comes to intersections is the 40/Brentwood Blvd/170 exchange. That is 10 times worse than 270/Manchester.


Well, you are correct that the 64/170/Brentwood interchange is busier and more of a bottleneck. I guess I wasn't clear -- the problem with the 270-Manchester interchange is the suicide attempt that is exiting SB 270 and going east on Manchester towards the mall, which requires cutting across traffic from the far left lane to the far right pretty quickly. Honestly, I don't know whose bright idea this was at MODOT, but they clearly weren't planning to have to drive that way to the mall!



Otherwise, I suppose it's not bad. But I would have favored a single point interchange like the new one at Olive.


The Olive interchange is really nice. I love the landscaping and the mini tunnel feeling you get going under the bridge. It would have been nice if MODOT could have done something similiar at 270/Manchester too. Problem is they had so much traffic and not enough places to funnel it the way the old design was set up. I like the addition of an on-ramp that goes directly to the mall from NB 270 but the ramp is so sharp (Almost a 90 degree angle no joke) it's a challenge for many motorists (especially if it's their first time using it). That's probably why I've seen the guardrail there get completely demolished about 12 times in the past year. I'm surprised they keep putting a brand new one there to replace it at the rate it keeps getting hit. Plus you get the morons who try to stop at the end of the ramp even though they have the right-of-way and all other traffic has to stop.
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PostAug 24, 2006#67

JMedwick wrote:Yes, the Manchester 270 intersection is horrible. While the old one was a stop and go nightmare, at least it didn't encrouage people to race each other to try and criss cross the lanes to get where they want to go.


I live near the intersection and it is a lot better than it used to be. Seems like everyone coming from the North thinks they have to jump across all the lanes and take the first (main) entrance into the mall. So now MODOT put in an extra exit lane and stop sign just for those people.



The better way is to go past the entrance on down to Ballas and turn right. Enter the mall at the 2nd light and turn left to go up the ramp to the parking on top of the store roofs. You can drive right up to Dick's entrance or Mall entrance near Famous, and there is always plenty of parking there -- even at Christmas season.
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PostAug 24, 2006#68

^ I am very aware of all those options. My parents live in Frontenac and I use to go to school nearby to mall even when they lived in Ballwin. I always use the Ballas enternces and usualy park down near JC Penny's. It just seems like some of the problems could have been avoided with a better inital design.
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PostAug 24, 2006#69

i'm pretty sure they will be doing some more redesign work when they add the new-remodeled Lord and Taylor store
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PostAug 24, 2006#70

JMedwick wrote:^ I am very aware of all those options. My parents live in Frontenac and I use to go to school nearby to mall even when they lived in Ballwin. I always use the Ballas enternces and usualy park down near JC Penny's. It just seems like some of the problems could have been avoided with a better inital design.


There were TONS of design problems with the parking garages and parking lots at the new West County Center when it opened. They had to completely reconfigure most of the big 270 parking garage because of many design errors that often resulted in parking lot accidents and nightmares. There is an exit on the top of the parking garage facing Ballas that doesn't have a stop sign and neither does oncoming traffic down the ramp it intersects. There is a TON of parking at West County Mall (And I'll give them credit for making much of it in garages). However, the typical soccer moms from Chesterfield always are the ones who seem to be fighting over the surface lot spaces because they can't seem to understand how to navigate parking garages.
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PostAug 24, 2006#71

Way-off-topic



This is about Northwest Plaza



Extend the Metrolink to it and create a New Urbanist Urban Village for the whole site and not just two blocks! Califonia has tuned malls into housing neighborhoods, why can't we?



Neo New Town St. Charles
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PostAug 24, 2006#72

SMSPlanstu wrote:Way-off-topic



This is about Northwest Plaza



Extend the Metrolink to it and create a New Urbanist Urban Village for the whole site and not just two blocks! Califonia has tuned malls into housing neighborhoods, why can't we?



Neo New Town St. Charles


Hmm... okay we are way off topic. But talking about West County Center is so much more fun than talking about Northwest Plaza. :P



In seriousness, though, I like the idea of extending metrolink to the NWP grounds -- it's not far from the Airport terminus, anyway. The question then becomes where should metro go next? Are there any right-of-ways that parallel Lindbergh? A route up/down Lindbergh would be great!
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PostAug 25, 2006#73

ThreeOneFour wrote:I hope Northwest Plaza can be redeveloped, and that some of the current tenants (esp. the anchors) will stay put. The sooner the better.



The shooting that took place there a few weeks ago doesn't necessarily mean the mall is unsafe. And it wouldn't stop me from shopping there- it's the dwindling amount of quality stores there that keeps me away. However, I am concerned about the perception that follows such a crime, because I have seen mall vacancies rise rapidly to the point where a mall doesn't recover. Bannister Mall in Kansas City and the Mall of Memphis are two good examples. I don't know if Bannister is still open or not, but I know Mall of Memphis has been closed for some time, and earned the nickname "Mall of Murder".



That doesn't necessarily mean that Northwest Plaza is doomed because of one shooting, however, we're talking about perception here and not reality. And the mall has a less-than-stellar reputation, as curfews were instituted a few years back as loitering (usually groups of teens) became a problem. It would be nice to see NWP's new owners come forth with a plan, and even better for the mall's future if it includes at least one new anchor that cannot be found elsewhere in the area, and/or a reconfiguration of the mall to make it unique and more of a destination/regional draw.


I believe it is all but empty.



Who remembers Blue Ridge Mall overlooking I-70? GONE....completely.
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PostAug 25, 2006#74

^ Yes, I remember Blue Ridge Mall. And you're right about Bannister, I believe there's little if anything there. I know The Jones Store (now Macy's) and Dillard's pulled out a couple of years ago, and I'm sure those were the final nails in the coffin.



I'd like to see NWP redeveloped as a TOD. Perhaps then St. Louis Mills could reposition itself by keeping some of its present value-oriented anchors (Bed Bath & Beyond, the Saks Off 5th Outlet, etc.) and attracting traditional and popular anchors like Macy's, Dillard's, and JC Penney. Or, perhaps Macy's and/or Dillard's could be persuaded to stay in Saint Ann as part of the TOD. And maybe the tower at Northwest Plaza could be incorporated into the plan.



I know it's past my bedtime because my wishes are becoming more far-fetched, but it doesn't hurt to dream, right?



I'd like to see community leaders and developers talking about some alternatives like this, because I simply don't think that malls like Northwest Plaza, Jamestown Mall, Crestwood Plaza, even St. Louis Mills, are sustainable in their current configuration. And the communities in which they are located deserve better IMHO.
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PostAug 25, 2006#75

ThreeOneFour wrote:^ Yes, I remember Blue Ridge Mall. And you're right about Bannister, I believe there's little if anything there. I know The Jones Store (now Macy's) and Dillard's pulled out a couple of years ago, and I'm sure those were the final nails in the coffin.



I'd like to see NWP redeveloped as a TOD. Perhaps then St. Louis Mills could reposition itself by keeping some of its present value-oriented anchors (Bed Bath & Beyond, the Saks Off 5th Outlet, etc.) and attracting traditional and popular anchors like Macy's, Dillard's, and JC Penney. Or, perhaps Macy's and/or Dillard's could be persuaded to stay in Saint Ann as part of the TOD. And maybe the tower at Northwest Plaza could be incorporated into the plan.



I know it's past my bedtime because my wishes are becoming more far-fetched, but it doesn't hurt to dream, right?



I'd like to see community leaders and developers talking about some alternatives like this, because I simply don't think that malls like Northwest Plaza, Jamestown Mall, Crestwood Plaza, even St. Louis Mills, are sustainable in their current configuration. And the communities in which they are located deserve better IMHO.


I went to Bannister Mall a couple years ago to do some shopping with my sister who was in Med School @ UMKC. There wasn't anything to buy because 75% of the stores were closed (This was right before The Jones Store closed). It was a Saturday afternoon but the mall had the empty feeling of Northwest Plaza about 10 minutes after all the stores closed for the evening. It was really depressing and we left after not even really buying anything. Kansas City doesn't have any really good malls comparable to The Galleria or West County Center. The Country Club Plaza is relatively nice but it's more of a "scaled down outdoor Plaza Frontenac with a little Central West End feel to it." Last time I was at the Country Club Plaza Sak's Fifth Avenue closed its doors. I haven't been back to see what they were able to replace it with. Crown Center is a nice mall but it's more of a tourist attraction than a mall locals would go to for typical mall shopping (It's kind of like KC's version of STL Union Station). KC isn't a bad town but there are a lot of places that could use some help with beautification and what not. Although some in St. Louis City accuse the city government of spending money too much in some areas and not enough in the other, KC seems to do that 10 times more. It seems to spend so much money on "The Plaza" area that there are plenty of areas in the city that make North St. Louis look like it has a good tax base. What cracks me up about KC is they'll build a parkway and put a ton of trees and plants around it when on the other side of the trees are dilapidated neighborhoods :lol: This can really be seen on Van Brunt if taken to "The Plaza." Instead of improving impoverished neighborhoods KC just hides them. I guess you can say KC and STL are about as different as 2 cities can be that are only about 4 hours apart.
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