urbanSTL

Not to mention that this is the second time someone has been shot INSIDE the mall in the middle of the day. (the last one was at Famous Barr about 10 years ago, but still).



I'm sure there are crime at other malls -- car break ins, maybe a rogue purse snatcher. But NWP is the only mall that I know of that's had shootings inside the stores. It's not a good sign.

aimster wrote:Not to mention that this is the second time someone has been shot INSIDE the mall in the middle of the day. (the last one was at Famous Barr about 10 years ago, but still).



I'm sure there are crime at other malls -- car break ins, maybe a rogue purse snatcher. But NWP is the only mall that I know of that's had shootings inside the stores. It's not a good sign.

It's not inside, but there was a shooting in the West County parking lot a couple of years back.



-RBB

White Flight retail maybe, but this is still a 85% White area called

Northwest St. Louis County ~ > 100,000 people



St. Ann

St. John

Edmundson

Woodson Terrace

Breckenridge Hills

Overland

Vinita Terrace

Vinita Park

Charlack

Maryland Heights

Bridgeton

Hazelwood

I hope Northwest Plaza can be redeveloped, and that some of the current tenants (esp. the anchors) will stay put. The sooner the better.



The shooting that took place there a few weeks ago doesn't necessarily mean the mall is unsafe. And it wouldn't stop me from shopping there- it's the dwindling amount of quality stores there that keeps me away. However, I am concerned about the perception that follows such a crime, because I have seen mall vacancies rise rapidly to the point where a mall doesn't recover. Bannister Mall in Kansas City and the Mall of Memphis are two good examples. I don't know if Bannister is still open or not, but I know Mall of Memphis has been closed for some time, and earned the nickname "Mall of Murder".



That doesn't necessarily mean that Northwest Plaza is doomed because of one shooting, however, we're talking about perception here and not reality. And the mall has a less-than-stellar reputation, as curfews were instituted a few years back as loitering (usually groups of teens) became a problem. It would be nice to see NWP's new owners come forth with a plan, and even better for the mall's future if it includes at least one new anchor that cannot be found elsewhere in the area, and/or a reconfiguration of the mall to make it unique and more of a destination/regional draw.

ThreeOneFour wrote:I hope Northwest Plaza can be redeveloped, and that some of the current tenants (esp. the anchors) will stay put. The sooner the better.



The shooting that took place there a few weeks ago doesn't necessarily mean the mall is unsafe. And it wouldn't stop me from shopping there- it's the dwindling amount of quality stores there that keeps me away. However, I am concerned about the perception that follows such a crime, because I have seen mall vacancies rise rapidly to the point where a mall doesn't recover. Bannister Mall in Kansas City and the Mall of Memphis are two good examples. I don't know if Bannister is still open or not, but I know Mall of Memphis has been closed for some time, and earned the nickname "Mall of Murder".



That doesn't necessarily mean that Northwest Plaza is doomed because of one shooting, however, we're talking about perception here and not reality. And the mall has a less-than-stellar reputation, as curfews were instituted a few years back as loitering (usually groups of teens) became a problem. It would be nice to see NWP's new owners come forth with a plan, and even better for the mall's future if it includes at least one new anchor that cannot be found elsewhere in the area, and/or a reconfiguration of the mall to make it unique and more of a destination/regional draw.

Not only is it closed, it's been bulldozed down. Right now it's just a big empty lot. I recently stayed at the Hampton Inn right by it. Kinda sad to see.



I remember going to the Mall of Memphis when visiting friends in the mid to late 90's. Actually a pretty nice place that was very heavilly leased. Dare I say it was nicer than Crestwood, South County or Northwest Plaza are now. Interesting to see a mall take a dive so fast

dweebe wrote:Not only is it closed, it's been bulldozed down. Right now it's just a big empty lot. I recently stayed at the Hampton Inn right by it. Kinda sad to see.



I remember going to the Mall of Memphis when visiting friends in the mid to late 90's. Actually a pretty nice place that was very heavilly leased. Dare I say it was nicer than Crestwood, South County or Northwest Plaza are now. Interesting to see a mall take a dive so fast

I remember it well- I visited a few times in the mid-1990s when I was a student at SEMO, as Memphis was a popular roadtrip destination. The mall's central feature was an ice skating rink, not unlike the Galleria malls in Dallas and Houston. IIRC, there was a food court and/or restaurants overlooking the ice, and the mall had over 100 specialty stores and the usual cast of anchors.



I know that a few years ago, Hickory Ridge Mall opened closer to the Germantown/Collierville area, and that siphoned a lot of the stores located in the Mall of Memphis. I suppose the crimes that occured there only exacerbated the mass exodus. Like the chicken and the egg, I'm not sure which came first.



It is sad to see a thriving mall like this one was die within a few short years. And I agree with you, that this particular mall was in better shape than Crestwood and Northwest Plazas are today. That concerns me, as I could see both of these malls taking a similar dive without swift and drastic changes. I would also think that Macy's and Dillard's won't hang on forever at these locations without major improvements.



I was in Crestwood the other night, and it was somewhat busy. I know they're filling a few vacancies, but I doubt it'll be enough. After all, it's never a good sign when the BreadCo leaves. (The only other time I've seen Saint Louis/Panera BreadCo close is when they open a newer location nearby, as they did in downtown a couple of years ago.)



I think South County Center is somewhat nicer now that Borders and some sit-down restaurants (Noodles & Company, Qdoba, etc.) have been added. Now, if only Macy's (Famous Barr) could do something about that small and crowded store they have there...

ThreeOneFour wrote:It is sad to see a thriving mall like this one was die within a few short years. And I agree with you, that this particular mall was in better shape than Crestwood and Northwest Plazas are today. That concerns me, as I could see both of these malls taking a similar dive without swift and drastic changes. I would also think that Macy's and Dillard's won't hang on forever at these locations without major improvements.

Well, this isn't the first shooting at Northwest Plaza. I don't remember the exact year, but it seems like there was one during Christmastime about 1992-1993. I remember being there a couple of days later, and it was like a ghost town.



But Northwest was already having problems even before that -- anyone remember how once the remodel was completed (about 1990?) on the local news the broadcasts would talk about the "problem" of cruising cars at Northwest? That slow, steady news coverage created fear, and then once a shooting ocurred, it was enough to drive people away.

I think South County Center is somewhat nicer now that Borders and some sit-down restaurants (Noodles & Company, Qdoba, etc.) have been added. Now, if only Macy's (Famous Barr) could do something about that small and crowded store they have there...

I thought May expanded that Famous when they remodeled in like 1997? Whatever Federated does -- I just hope they don't knock down the rotunda. Granted, that's the ugliest one of the Famous-Barr buildings from that era, but it's still a unique style. I'm still mad at May for tearing down the perfectly good old West County store.

Tysalpha wrote:Well, this isn't the first shooting at Northwest Plaza. I don't remember the exact year, but it seems like there was one during Christmastime about 1992-1993. I remember being there a couple of days later, and it was like a ghost town.



But Northwest was already having problems even before that -- anyone remember how once the remodel was completed (about 1990?) on the local news the broadcasts would talk about the "problem" of cruising cars at Northwest? That slow, steady news coverage created fear, and then once a shooting ocurred, it was enough to drive people away.

Thanks- you jogged my memory. I couldn't remember specifically what happened when, so I didn't want to generalize about shootings, violence, etc. Basically, the mall's reputation for violence was established long before the most recent fatal shooting there, so unfortunately the die has already been cast. The number of stores there has decreased, JC Penney left several years ago, and without a comprehensive redevelopment plan, I don't expect the mall (or the perception of it) to get any better at all.

I thought May expanded that Famous when they remodeled in like 1997? Whatever Federated does -- I just hope they don't knock down the rotunda. Granted, that's the ugliest one of the Famous-Barr buildings from that era, but it's still a unique style. I'm still mad at May for tearing down the perfectly good old West County store.

I agree. When I can't find what I want at the downtown store, I usually go to the the Galleria or St. Clair Square locations, then to South County or West County.



The St. Clair Square Famous/Macy's is my favorite suburban location- mostly because the men's department is outstanding- and it doesn't seem to get as congested as the Galleria and West County locations. And IMHO- it's the best-looking of the "rotunda" stores- it was the last to be built (1973) and its rotunda is larger than those at Northwest Plaza and South County Center. If I recall correctly, West County's rotunda was quite similar to the one in Fairview Heights. The new store is nice, but I was happy with the old one.

Clearly, all these malls reach a tipping point with no return:

Northland (RIP)

St. Louis Centre (almost)

Northwest (almost)

Union Station (almost)

Crestwood



Future: Galleria?



What are mall owners to do?

JCity wrote:Future: Galleria?

No way here. This mall is battle tested and consistently reinvests as well as attracts new tennants even though there are a constant stream of newer malls being built.

JCity wrote:Clearly, all these malls reach a tipping point with no return:

Northland (RIP)

St. Louis Centre (almost)

Northwest (almost)

Union Station (almost)

Crestwood



Future: Galleria?



What are mall owners to do?

You forgot Jamestown (not as critical as NWP or US, but fast approaching)

TheWayoftheArch wrote:Galleria posts the most revenue/earnings of any local mall. Both Mills and West County havn't come close to their "projections" while Galleria banks. I cite an article from Christmas stating that Galleria was still on top...then again I think it was the Post...

The galleria, Frontnac, and West County are all in such prime locations... I can't see any of the exurb or other suburban taking much from these...Frontnac has it's niche...The Galleria is well the Galleria for crying out loud...and West County is in a perfect location as well... IMO The mills mall is gross... I went there once and it was more like a flea market than a mall..what a dump...!

bpe235 wrote:The galleria, Frontnac, and West County are all in such prime locations... I can't see any of the exurb or other suburban taking much from these...Frontnac has it's niche...The Galleria is well the Galleria for crying out loud...and West County is in a perfect location as well... IMO The mills mall is gross... I went there once and it was more like a flea market than a mall..what a dump...!

I think North County can support one great mall- the trouble is- Jamestown, Northwest, and now St. Louis Mills are all fighting for the same piece of pie. The Mills developers apparently don't shy away from oversaturated markets, because similar developments in Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and Nashville have failed to meet initial expectations as well.



It is like a fleamarket inside. I used to go to the Blues practice facility when the Blues were worth watching, and it didn't take long for the mall to develop a downmarket feel, mostly because it never filled even close to its capacity.



As the parent of a three y/o boy, I hate the playground of death in that mall. My son's too old for the babies' play area, and technically he's too young for the main playground. The latter wouldn't be a problem if parents didn't expect the playground equipment to baby-sit their children as they window shop and converse on their mobile phones, but I guess that's another rant for another time.



The future of retail in North County just looks awful IMHO, despite the significant amount of new home construction at the outer reaches of the area. It would be fine if forces could join together and rehab one of the existing centers adequately or open one quality major shopping destination, but now we've got two dying malls recently joined by an underperforming megamall.

bpe235 wrote:The galleria, Frontnac, and West County are all in such prime locations... I can't see any of the exurb or other suburban taking much from these...Frontnac has it's niche...The Galleria is well the Galleria for crying out loud...and West County is in a perfect location as well... IMO The mills mall is gross... I went there once and it was more like a flea market than a mall..what a dump...!

I disagree about the location of West County Center -- it's too far south for anyone north of Page or in St. Charles County. But the bigger issue is HIGHWAY ACCESS. That Manchester / 270 interchange is a mess, especially approaching the mall from SB 270 to EB Manchester. If traffic continues to worsen, this will be the largest problem for that mall.

West County Mall is only a mile and half south of Highway 40, thats not to far south at all.

stlmizzoutiger wrote:

Tysalpha wrote:I disagree about the location of West County Center -- it's too far south for anyone north of Page or in St. Charles County. But the bigger issue is HIGHWAY ACCESS. That Manchester / 270 interchange is a mess, especially approaching the mall from SB 270 to EB Manchester. If traffic continues to worsen, this will be the largest problem for that mall.

Manchester/270 is hardly a mess. It can be argued that the biggest mess when it comes to intersections is the 40/Brentwood Blvd/170 exchange. That is 10 times worse than 270/Manchester.

Well, you are correct that the 64/170/Brentwood interchange is busier and more of a bottleneck. I guess I wasn't clear -- the problem with the 270-Manchester interchange is the suicide attempt that is exiting SB 270 and going east on Manchester towards the mall, which requires cutting across traffic from the far left lane to the far right pretty quickly. Honestly, I don't know whose bright idea this was at MODOT, but they clearly weren't planning to have to drive that way to the mall!



Otherwise, I suppose it's not bad. But I would have favored a single point interchange like the new one at Olive.

^If coming from SB 270, one could enter the mall from Ballas instead of Manchester, giving a motorist more time to merge right.

stlmizzoutiger wrote:

Tysalpha wrote:

bpe235 wrote:The galleria, Frontnac, and West County are all in such prime locations... I can't see any of the exurb or other suburban taking much from these...Frontnac has it's niche...The Galleria is well the Galleria for crying out loud...and West County is in a perfect location as well... IMO The mills mall is gross... I went there once and it was more like a flea market than a mall..what a dump...!

I disagree about the location of West County Center -- it's too far south for anyone north of Page or in St. Charles County. But the bigger issue is HIGHWAY ACCESS. That Manchester / 270 interchange is a mess, especially approaching the mall from SB 270 to EB Manchester. If traffic continues to worsen, this will be the largest problem for that mall.

Manchester/270 is hardly a mess. It can be argued that the biggest mess when it comes to intersections is the 40/Brentwood Blvd/170 exchange. That is 10 times worse than 270/Manchester.

While it may not be pretty, the current I-270/Manchester intersection is a lot better than it used to be. I grew up in West County and remember mornings where even with no accidents eastbound Manchester would back all the up to Barrett Station Rd. It would usually take 20 minutes to get from the White Castle to getting onto 270.