Some crappy cell phone pics from this morning.
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Ugly.
All of the makeup in the world cannot hide the fact that this is temporary car storage -- and that we have a surplus of such uses Downtown.
Bustling cities occur with parking limited, housing and mixed uses abundant. A planning process and political leadership could bring this about, but neither exist.
All of the makeup in the world cannot hide the fact that this is temporary car storage -- and that we have a surplus of such uses Downtown.
Bustling cities occur with parking limited, housing and mixed uses abundant. A planning process and political leadership could bring this about, but neither exist.
I thought that new parking garages were required to have first-floor retail or other "pedestrian friendly" uses? Is this the case? Does this garage have first floor retail? Doesn't look like it.
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TGE-ATW wrote:I thought that new parking garages were required to have first-floor retail or other "pedestrian friendly" uses? Is this the case? Does this garage have first floor retail? Doesn't look like it.
This one will have first floor retail.
Doug wrote:Ugly.
All of the makeup in the world cannot hide the fact that this is temporary car storage -- and that we have a surplus of such uses Downtown.
Bustling cities occur with parking limited, housing and mixed uses abundant. A planning process and political leadership could bring this about, but neither exist.
Yes, God forbid city employees and jurors have to walk the additional two blocks from the half-used (during the day) city owned Kiel garage.
However for smaller events the Kiel garage seems to fill to 100% full. A couple of years ago when the Blues were the worst team in hockey and they were only drawing 5000 to 6000 for a game; there still wouldn't be any spaces left. It seems to be the easy option even though it take 90+ minutes to empty out.
Plus if the new garage is a revenue generator for the city, I guess it isn't the complete center of evil in the universe. Between 81 Cardinal games, 40 Blues games along with other Scottrade/Kiel events it could be some good income.
Plus, how many parking lots do you see in big cities? Not many. Maybe the availability of garage parking will start filling in some of the lots around downtown. Its all a chicken and the egg argument.
TGE-ATW wrote:I thought that new parking garages were required to have first-floor retail or other "pedestrian friendly" uses? Is this the case? Does this garage have first floor retail? Doesn't look like it.
Where you see the C. Rallo sign in zink's picture is supposed to be retail.
^Wait.
So we have to build a garage every two blocks because people can't walk 6 or 8 to another one which isn't full like the Century?
Isn't this a City, or perhaps not?
A building like Skyhouse or the Roberts Tower should have been built at this site when the economy improves. But who wants to live across the street from City Hall, with it's ugly design modeled off Chesterfieldian Nouveau McMansions?
We've been building parking garages for how long? During that period of time how many infill towers were built on sites that weren't previously occupied? How many buildings came down during that same period of time for parking? Here's a refresher in case people forgot
What's being torn down for the Indigo Hotel? What was demolished for Skyhouse?
So we have to build a garage every two blocks because people can't walk 6 or 8 to another one which isn't full like the Century?
Isn't this a City, or perhaps not?
A building like Skyhouse or the Roberts Tower should have been built at this site when the economy improves. But who wants to live across the street from City Hall, with it's ugly design modeled off Chesterfieldian Nouveau McMansions?
We've been building parking garages for how long? During that period of time how many infill towers were built on sites that weren't previously occupied? How many buildings came down during that same period of time for parking? Here's a refresher in case people forgot
What's being torn down for the Indigo Hotel? What was demolished for Skyhouse?
It's an amazing building and I'm sure people would pay to rent or purchase a condo with a City Hall view!
This would have been an ideal location as were obviously not going to build on the "Civic Room" of Gateway Mall West!!!!
This would have been an ideal location as were obviously not going to build on the "Civic Room" of Gateway Mall West!!!!
Doug wrote:^Wait.
So we have to build a garage every two blocks because people can't walk 6 or 8 to another one which isn't full like the Century?
Isn't this a City, or perhaps not?
A building like Skyhouse or the Roberts Tower should have been built at this site when the economy improves. But who wants to live across the street from City Hall, with it's ugly design modeled off Chesterfieldian Nouveau McMansions?
We've been building parking garages for how long? During that period of time how many infill towers were built on sites that weren't previously occupied? How many buildings came down during that same period of time for parking? Here's a refresher in case people forgot
What's being torn down for the Indigo Hotel? What was demolished for Skyhouse?
I don't think anyone on this forum would prefer a parking garage to a condo building on this site, however, the market now and probably in the near future doesn't support a condo tower here. We have thousands of units left to redevelop in the CBD and I would prefer those get renovated first.
So unless you have $30 - $100 million in cash laying around to build a condo tower, you'll just have to except that there is not the demand to build one now. Parking garages are inevitable until more downtown employees have access to and use public transportation and/or land values reach a point where building a parking garage is not as economically feasible as building a condo tower.
Doug, is there really a demand for towers on vacant lots right now?
I think someone posted a few months back that there is still about 10-12 buildings downtown that are left to be redeveloped. These are the last of the historical bunch, but were talking 1000s of residential units here (these warehouses are pretty damn big).
I think we just need to patient. I already know that in a few years when there are no historic buildings left to be rehabbed, we will see a boom of new construction downtown. Most likely that new construction will take place on empty lots, because that will be the only place to build. By the way....I would rather have parking garages with ground level retail than gravel parking lots. We have gotten pretty spoiled at urbanstl.com.
I think someone posted a few months back that there is still about 10-12 buildings downtown that are left to be redeveloped. These are the last of the historical bunch, but were talking 1000s of residential units here (these warehouses are pretty damn big).
I think we just need to patient. I already know that in a few years when there are no historic buildings left to be rehabbed, we will see a boom of new construction downtown. Most likely that new construction will take place on empty lots, because that will be the only place to build. By the way....I would rather have parking garages with ground level retail than gravel parking lots. We have gotten pretty spoiled at urbanstl.com.
^A vacant lot for another 5 years or less, with a condo being built then, is far better than a parking garage.
We are not spoiled. City Hall has low standards and an inability to think 5 years ahead.
We are not spoiled. City Hall has low standards and an inability to think 5 years ahead.
Doug wrote:^A vacant lot for another 5 years or less, with a condo being built then, is far better than a parking garage.
We are not spoiled. City Hall has low standards and an inability to think 5 years ahead.
Do you really think we would have seen a condo tower here in 5 years? I don't think so. I love to be optimistic about STL development, but, I'm also a realist. I'd say a more accurate estimate of when a new development would happen on that lot could be 5 - 30 years.
Again, I'm not a fan of parking garages, but this garage will contribute more to the urban fabric over the next 5-30 years with it being built up to the sidewalk and containing street-level retail than a gravel parking lot would have.
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I can think of numerous lots that would be better suited for a condo tower.
I don't know that I would want to live right next door to the jail anyway.
I don't know that I would want to live right next door to the jail anyway.
We can argue about the "what ifs" until we're blue in the face. The reality is that they built a parking garage. And as far as parking garages go, this one is pretty good looking.
The reality is that they built a parking garage. And as far as parking garages go, this one is pretty good looking.
We're also engaged in two wars abroad and in a near depression. That reality does not justify the causes or the actual outcome. Saying "they built a garage and accept it" essentially allows this to continue indefinitely.
I don't know why people would have an issue with living near City Jail. I'm not sure how often they have escapees, but your argument sounds as odd as American towns (or rather Congressmen) refusing Guantanamo prisoners, as if people often break out of Supermax.
This prime real estate with excellent views should be nothing less; we don't need the parking by any means. If people have issue with walking a few blocks then by all means get a job in Earth City! I'm damn tired of political and physically laziness -- our Country has a severe obesity problem, while Downtown's built environment has suffered irreparable losses. Why must we sacrifice our potential for suburbanites, the same that abandoned us, when we should be attracting those from the coasts or abroad, who understand City living and can have it cheaper here?
Do we want an urban future that embraces our unique architectural resources and new innovative designs, with streets teaming with life, or that of an autocentric urban-suburban hybrid that fails at both?
Every garage built stymies residency, allowing mass exodus out of the core after work hours or the conclusion of entertainment events. Every section of vacant, or once occupied, land taken by parking prevents the critical mass from occurring -- ever offsetting the day we can witness our streets filled with a diverse public at all hours of the day and night.
We fundamentally will never have a 24/7 City, or even one that can support street cars downtown, if we keep building parking garages. The density will not happen. It's impossible.
Acceptance of this parking garage, the Century Garage, and the new one at the site of St. Louis Centre, can only be viewed as an irony worthy of Lyda "Contrary" Krewson fame.
We're also engaged in two wars abroad and in a near depression. That reality does not justify the causes or the actual outcome. Saying "they built a garage and accept it" essentially allows this to continue indefinitely.
I don't know why people would have an issue with living near City Jail. I'm not sure how often they have escapees, but your argument sounds as odd as American towns (or rather Congressmen) refusing Guantanamo prisoners, as if people often break out of Supermax.
This prime real estate with excellent views should be nothing less; we don't need the parking by any means. If people have issue with walking a few blocks then by all means get a job in Earth City! I'm damn tired of political and physically laziness -- our Country has a severe obesity problem, while Downtown's built environment has suffered irreparable losses. Why must we sacrifice our potential for suburbanites, the same that abandoned us, when we should be attracting those from the coasts or abroad, who understand City living and can have it cheaper here?
Do we want an urban future that embraces our unique architectural resources and new innovative designs, with streets teaming with life, or that of an autocentric urban-suburban hybrid that fails at both?
Every garage built stymies residency, allowing mass exodus out of the core after work hours or the conclusion of entertainment events. Every section of vacant, or once occupied, land taken by parking prevents the critical mass from occurring -- ever offsetting the day we can witness our streets filled with a diverse public at all hours of the day and night.
We fundamentally will never have a 24/7 City, or even one that can support street cars downtown, if we keep building parking garages. The density will not happen. It's impossible.
Acceptance of this parking garage, the Century Garage, and the new one at the site of St. Louis Centre, can only be viewed as an irony worthy of Lyda "Contrary" Krewson fame.
Honestly, I agree with Doug on this. There are way too many parking structures in this city, and they are severely dampening our potential.
Having a parking garage in the center of our city 1. increases the flow of cars into the area and 2. discourages people from walking or taking public transit. This is exactly the opposite of what we need if we want to continue building the liveliness of our city.
The presence of 1st level retail is a step in the right direction. This garage, unlike many of those in downtown, will not be completely useless to pedestrians. But I'm not going to pretend that this development is good.
It is yet another hindrance to the vitality of our downtown, to the connectedness of our city, to the effectiveness of our public transportation. If it will indeed still be here in 30 years, it is building for a future in which people behave exactly as they have for the past 40 years.
Having a parking garage in the center of our city 1. increases the flow of cars into the area and 2. discourages people from walking or taking public transit. This is exactly the opposite of what we need if we want to continue building the liveliness of our city.
The presence of 1st level retail is a step in the right direction. This garage, unlike many of those in downtown, will not be completely useless to pedestrians. But I'm not going to pretend that this development is good.
It is yet another hindrance to the vitality of our downtown, to the connectedness of our city, to the effectiveness of our public transportation. If it will indeed still be here in 30 years, it is building for a future in which people behave exactly as they have for the past 40 years.
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I want to throw something out there real quick,
(Despite the fact that I, like everyone here, would love to see monster residential and office towers on every lot in downtown)
Downtown has some momentum going right now. Maybe it is good for the suburbanites who likely will never consider moving downtown to be able to easily drive to the city and park and spend money. FOR THE TIME BEING. Realistically, we have eons of empty lots available for development in downtown, enough for multiple decades of development barring any MAJOR transformative freak event (getting an Olympic bid for 2020, for instance). Why not take advantage of being able to provide ample parking for suburbanites to provide patronage to downtown businesses while the residential population continues to build toward that critical mass point we all wish to hit very soon. There's something about paying 40$ a night to park in downtown Chicago that leads me to believe that maybe, just maybe, a parking garage on a subprime (lets be real) lot that is adjacent to a JAIL might be very appreciated should the downtown population speed up its growth. Eastern views in a residential building would be immediately blocked by the Eagleton building anyway, making this lot EXTREMELY unlikely to be developed.
Just saying guys.
(Despite the fact that I, like everyone here, would love to see monster residential and office towers on every lot in downtown)
Downtown has some momentum going right now. Maybe it is good for the suburbanites who likely will never consider moving downtown to be able to easily drive to the city and park and spend money. FOR THE TIME BEING. Realistically, we have eons of empty lots available for development in downtown, enough for multiple decades of development barring any MAJOR transformative freak event (getting an Olympic bid for 2020, for instance). Why not take advantage of being able to provide ample parking for suburbanites to provide patronage to downtown businesses while the residential population continues to build toward that critical mass point we all wish to hit very soon. There's something about paying 40$ a night to park in downtown Chicago that leads me to believe that maybe, just maybe, a parking garage on a subprime (lets be real) lot that is adjacent to a JAIL might be very appreciated should the downtown population speed up its growth. Eastern views in a residential building would be immediately blocked by the Eagleton building anyway, making this lot EXTREMELY unlikely to be developed.
Just saying guys.
Okay, what I'm about to throw out here may seem pretty radical. But it is possible that the parking garages are directly hindering the critical mass from occuring? Think about it. With many garages, it's relatively easy for people to go to downtown, hit one shop, get back in their car and leave. But if parking was a pain, if parking was freaking ridiculously impossible--I'm talking no garages at all--people would sure as hell make a day trip out of any visit downtown. They would be forced to walk, to see all there is to see. This would mean that many more people walking downtown, and all the associated benefits with that (safety, health, business, etc).
So you think people would just avoid downtown altogether? I don't. Downtown has such a momentum going, so many activities, people will go there. And people love places where they can see other people.
And what about the business people who work downtown and commute via highway? Perhaps public transportation, biking, and walking, would suddenly become the most desirable options for them. Perhaps these people would decide to live downtown, or at least much closer to the downtown area.
Is it possible that people would avoid downtown's parking nightmare? Absolutely. Is it possible that businesses will move to places where they can get tons of parking? Absolutely. But would downtown die? I think not. There is already such a mass of people living in that confined area, there is no way for commerce to simply dry up. It is a growing population, a population of people who have the privilege of being able to walk to virtually everything they need. Why should so much of the area be wasted on cars? Why make cars convenient?
The point I'm trying to make here is that I think a vacant lot would be better than a parking lot or a parking garage. That downtown should not be convenient for cars. And that with less convenient parking, the number of pedestrians will actually increase, bringing us closer to that elusive critical mass.
So you think people would just avoid downtown altogether? I don't. Downtown has such a momentum going, so many activities, people will go there. And people love places where they can see other people.
And what about the business people who work downtown and commute via highway? Perhaps public transportation, biking, and walking, would suddenly become the most desirable options for them. Perhaps these people would decide to live downtown, or at least much closer to the downtown area.
Is it possible that people would avoid downtown's parking nightmare? Absolutely. Is it possible that businesses will move to places where they can get tons of parking? Absolutely. But would downtown die? I think not. There is already such a mass of people living in that confined area, there is no way for commerce to simply dry up. It is a growing population, a population of people who have the privilege of being able to walk to virtually everything they need. Why should so much of the area be wasted on cars? Why make cars convenient?
The point I'm trying to make here is that I think a vacant lot would be better than a parking lot or a parking garage. That downtown should not be convenient for cars. And that with less convenient parking, the number of pedestrians will actually increase, bringing us closer to that elusive critical mass.
St. Louis definitely has critical mass potential, but a lot must change before we start eliminating parking options downtown.
1) We need a regional comprehensive transit plan that focuses on downtown as the center of the region. Not Clayton, Not West County, DOWNTOWN AS THE CENTER OF THE REGION. We need a plan very similar to Denver's Fast Tracks Plan.
2) We need to change our zoning laws in the county and city that makes land adjacent to stations mandatory TOD.
3) We need to educated the region about the benefits of public transit and walking.
And after we accomplish all of these things guess what?
Downtown will still require parking garages because there are people that will still refuse to use Metro. Some people enjoy driving and more power to them for that. Some of you people act like there is no parking garages in Manhattan. If they have parking garages in downtown Chicago, what makes you think that St. Louis (with our baby transit) is not going to have a few.
Also I think it is stupid that some of you would rather have a vacant lot for five years rather than a garage with ground level retail. Are you serious?
1) We need a regional comprehensive transit plan that focuses on downtown as the center of the region. Not Clayton, Not West County, DOWNTOWN AS THE CENTER OF THE REGION. We need a plan very similar to Denver's Fast Tracks Plan.
2) We need to change our zoning laws in the county and city that makes land adjacent to stations mandatory TOD.
3) We need to educated the region about the benefits of public transit and walking.
And after we accomplish all of these things guess what?
Downtown will still require parking garages because there are people that will still refuse to use Metro. Some people enjoy driving and more power to them for that. Some of you people act like there is no parking garages in Manhattan. If they have parking garages in downtown Chicago, what makes you think that St. Louis (with our baby transit) is not going to have a few.
Also I think it is stupid that some of you would rather have a vacant lot for five years rather than a garage with ground level retail. Are you serious?
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Good point on your first comment brody.
Bottom line though, despite having views of city hall, this lot is next to a jail, and literally has one entire side that would have no views whatsoever, and that side is the one that, for the time being, will serve as the "money shot" (no pun intended) in getting people to purchase new downtown condos. That of the arch and or the ballpark.
This just isn't prime real-estate compared to the glut of available lots for development. Because of this, I think a garage with prime street level retail in between Scottrade and Busch is a fairly good use for this land, considering.
Let's focus on debating things that would be much more egregious, such as a parking garages in BPV.
Bottom line though, despite having views of city hall, this lot is next to a jail, and literally has one entire side that would have no views whatsoever, and that side is the one that, for the time being, will serve as the "money shot" (no pun intended) in getting people to purchase new downtown condos. That of the arch and or the ballpark.
This just isn't prime real-estate compared to the glut of available lots for development. Because of this, I think a garage with prime street level retail in between Scottrade and Busch is a fairly good use for this land, considering.
Let's focus on debating things that would be much more egregious, such as a parking garages in BPV.
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Arch_Genesis wrote:^ I've always liked the idea of an NFL/MLS stadium, I'd prefer to put it on the east riverfront though. Maybe that way Chicago could somehow pay for some of it.
Won't happen. MLS is moving away from 70K NFL stadiums in favor of 20-25K soccer only stadiums.
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^wrong thread, but to CS
Point being, they shouldn't. 70,000 showed up to watch the sounders play chelsea and barcelona in Quest. Why eliminate the opportunity for such events?
*Back to topic*
Point being, they shouldn't. 70,000 showed up to watch the sounders play chelsea and barcelona in Quest. Why eliminate the opportunity for such events?
*Back to topic*
I don't have a problem with a view of the Eagleton Courthouse.
So the tower couldn't go higher than the City Jail?
Depending on height, a condo project would have views of the City Police Department, City Hall, the Gateway Mall, Civil Courts, and the Sheraton's Trompe l'oi.
Not every condo project in Chicago has views of Lake Michigan. Not every project in St. Louis must have a view of the Arch?
So the tower couldn't go higher than the City Jail?
Depending on height, a condo project would have views of the City Police Department, City Hall, the Gateway Mall, Civil Courts, and the Sheraton's Trompe l'oi.
Not every condo project in Chicago has views of Lake Michigan. Not every project in St. Louis must have a view of the Arch?
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^That is true, but until it is much more difficult than it is now to find land and build towers that have views of the arch and or stadium, I would be very willing to bet/argue that lots without these views won't be developed anytime soon.
One caveat to my argument would be the Robert's tower, as they are clearly hoping to capitalize on the huge rebirth of the OPO area. This also does not apply to the lot in question, as there is really very little so far in the area. Once again, street level retail adding life to this area will help spur future development IMO, and it's always very nice to have a garage nearby that does monthly parking rates should prospective buyers not want to invest in deeded parking spaces.
"Pick and choose your battles"
One caveat to my argument would be the Robert's tower, as they are clearly hoping to capitalize on the huge rebirth of the OPO area. This also does not apply to the lot in question, as there is really very little so far in the area. Once again, street level retail adding life to this area will help spur future development IMO, and it's always very nice to have a garage nearby that does monthly parking rates should prospective buyers not want to invest in deeded parking spaces.
"Pick and choose your battles"