jstriebel wrote:I totally understand the notion of not accepting mediocre because we believe we can't do better or whatever, but in this case, I think we have to bite the bullet and do it.
We HAVE to keep these jobs in the city, and I don't see another alternative. And, honestly, I'm not sure I have the confidence that anything will happen in that area any time soon. I think this is a worthwhile trade-off myself. I really do.
True considering that where that is could use the development and needs something to kickstart it due to it being a very stigmatized area. And it would help perception of the region since the reputation is heavily influenced by the issues with North City. Since I get the impression that the perception of the area as a whole is heavily slanted on the most problematic areas and thinking its more representative than what it really is. (I wonder If part of that in relation to people outside the area is due to it being between the airport and downtown)
It seems this is an example of not wanting the perfect to be the enemy of the good.
This would create a massive barrier in the heart of north city. With the security needs of the facility it will be similar to building a prison in north city. Security fence, razor wire.... would you want to live near that?
moorlander wrote:This would create a massive barrier in the heart of north city. With the security needs of the facility it will be similar to building a prison in north city. Security fence, razor wire.... would you want to live near that?
Plus, are we talking about removing Cass as a through street? Not good.
moorlander wrote:This would create a massive barrier in the heart of north city. With the security needs of the facility it will be similar to building a prison in north city. Security fence, razor wire.... would you want to live near that?
It would not be pleasant to live near that. you would almost have to have some zone of non-residential development nearby as a result of it likely being hard to places residential units due to that.
Wouldn't the security requirements of this and the aesthetic aspects of it have it make sense to be in a more industrial area? Is there some comparable land along the river anywhere in the city that could serve the needs? I was looking at aerials and it looks like there is some unused land from what It looks like in the vicinity of the MSD operations along the river. if that is usable it would make more sense to put a more secure facility there.
I'm very wary of this.... 122 acres is an enormous price to pay, especially when it likely will result in the further destruction of a fragile street grid and possibilities for neighborhood building. Cincinnati announced three different projects in one week recently that will bring more new jobs to town than what this will even retain. We got to get the right vision and right people to work on writing a new future for our City.
It's hard for me to consider seriously the street grid over the possible 7,000 jobs that might be housed in the facility, as well as the millions in investment it will bring to the Northside. If the NGIA does not move there, Pruitt-Igoe will probably sit empty for another 20-30 years at least. I would not be surprised if it was still empty half a century from now. I realize not all development is good development, but seriously, I think we can live without Cass.
I think all this talk of them building a 50 foot wall with razor wire, a minefield, and a moat around 120 acres is overblown. Sure they need great physical and digital security but honestly, so do most major finance companies and those have no issues with building a facility that is well integrated with the neighborhood around them in other cities. I'd say give them a chance and see what they propose and work closely with them to get something that is mutually acceptable. Pruitt Igoe is a huge scar on the city decades after it's demolition and it's way past time to bring more development and investment into the north side. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were rebuilt in way less time than this and history has shown that nuclear radiation is less a deterrent to investment than wealth flight and enchrenched poverty.
Ebsy wrote:It's hard for me to consider seriously the street grid over the possible 7,000 jobs that might be housed in the facility, as well as the millions in investment it will bring to the Northside. If the NGIA does not move there, Pruitt-Igoe will probably sit empty for another 20-30 years at least. I would not be surprised if it was still empty half a century from now. I realize not all development is good development, but seriously, I think we can live without Cass.
Why do you have so little confidence in Saint Louis City? That property is a few blocks from downtown and prime for redevelopment. Also, I've only heard that possible 7,000 number from McKee's people, hardly a reliable source. 3,000 workers over 122 acres is crappy job density and there'd be no property taxes. 7,000 would improve the density ratio but it remains to be seen how likely that is.
Edit... I should have said something along the lines of "I have more confidence in the City" rather than making it a personal comment.
Ebsy wrote:It's hard for me to consider seriously the street grid over the possible 7,000 jobs that might be housed in the facility, as well as the millions in investment it will bring to the Northside. If the NGIA does not move there, Pruitt-Igoe will probably sit empty for another 20-30 years at least. I would not be surprised if it was still empty half a century from now. I realize not all development is good development, but seriously, I think we can live without Cass.
Why do you have so little confidence in Saint Louis City? That property is a few blocks from downtown and prime for redevelopment. Also, I've only heard that possible 7,000 number from McKee's people, hardly a reliable source. 3,000 workers over 122 acres is crappy job density and there'd be no property taxes. 7,000 would improve the density ratio but it remains to be seen how likely that is.
I think the confidence lacks because "Downtown" isn't luring hardly any development to Downtown, much less a few blocks away. "Prime" for redevelopment is subjective. I'm immersed in commercial real estate in STL city and outside of this website, Pruitt-Igoe gets zero attention from anyone. I'm not saying this site is ideal for this development, but I think the idea that if this doesn't happen, it'll be many years before it gets attention is an accurate assessment.
Reading some of these comments would make think they are going to build the worlds largest prison here.
So i think so of you are over blowing the issue. I do understand your concerns about it & how it would fit into the neighborhood however theres not much of a neighborhood there anymore & how long will it take to even restore what was lost? nearly 60s years of disinvestment. I think it's time to start investing & a city thats starved for jobs should do everything is possibly can to keep/ retain these jobs.
Im not concerned about Cass ave it could actually be re routing to go around the facility.
3 thousand plus jobs would be like striking gold in places like Fenton & the 4 sites mentioned.
Do i think the city needs to get real. Ofcourse it does they need to really get serious on about the future of Saint.Louis as a city & create a vision that they can bring into fruition.
Im all for these jobs staying in the city it's important. The city needs the revenue desperately the last thing we need is the city losing out on another missed opportunity on people being a little short cited over concerns about street grids & barb wired fences..
This neighborhood alone isn't going to come back anytime soon however this is the best way of jumpstarting a neighborhood thats pretty much almost dead..
Saint.Louis has too many major dead zones when it comes to good paying jobs good schools population growth etc... The areas that should be more of focused are North Saint.Louis & East.Saint.Louis
If we can get major investments into both that allow persistent positive growth then the shenanigans that plagues not only those areas but all of Saint.Louis as a whole then stabilization will proceed..
Till then we'll wait a while on the announcement. Im really cheering North gets it..
Here is an example of a facility that appears to meet similar security needs. 500 foot setback and tall wrought iron security fence. FF to 1min for security part of the video.
I don't see why that big of a footprint is necessary. It seems McKee and the City are offering much more land in excess of what the NGA is asking for. NGA is publicly asking for 50 acres, and McKee and the City are offering them 120. As far as I can tell from Google satellite view, the massive additional chunk of land they are offering contains the greatest amount of nearly-contiguous vacant land in the city and therefore theoretically should be just about the most attractive land for redevelopment within McKee's footprint other than perhaps the area around a rebuilt 22nd street interchange. I have no problem at all with the city offering the P-I site plus more limited contiguous acreage to NGA. If we landed NGA on the P-I site+, it would be a clear victory for the City. But all the land they're offering north of Howard Street just seems unnecessary and wasteful planning on the part of the City.
When we imagine quality, walkable urban redevelopment taking place in Mckee's footprint, it is this mostly vacant land north of P-I that Mckee and the City are offering to NGA that would be the most likely location for such redevelopment as this chunk of land offers so much opportunity for re-plotting and zoning more than any other chunk of land that Mckee holds. With the sale of the 60+ acres north of Howard Street to NGA, that type of massive, community-scaled vision of redevelopment would be likely killed. I don't see how it serves the City's long term interests of seeing that type of walkable, safe community for residents come to bear when they are giving up the land that is most suitable for that type of development to occur.
Honestly, to me this offer signals that the Mayor has given up on that type of vision for Mckee's northside. And I think Mckee sees this as mostly an opportunity to unload tons of land to a suitable buyer which will be seen as a success story of economic development by the local press. The Mayor and Mckee will come out looking like champions if they are able to put this together, able to tell the reporters "Our plan worked", while the urban vision they had been so eager to talk about 5 years ago is forgotten. Few in the media will call them out on that and any attempts to do so will be half-hearted by the Post-Dispatch editorial board because in the end, they took a risk and the plan will have "worked".
I don't mean to blow this out of proportion. Certainly the massive NGA investment and jobs will be good for the city and will be a great improvement upon what exists on much of those particular blocks now. This isn't the end of urbanity as we know it in St. Louis. It wouldn't even be the end of potential for other positive redevelopment in other areas of Mckee's northside. But it would be giving up the opportunity for the most exciting neighborhood-level redevelopment in the city for hopefully 7000 nice paying jobs. It's a tradeoff.
I'd rather the city offer NGA the 60 acres south of Howard Street, land those jobs, and leave the other 60 for exciting urban redevelopment, even if it takes 15 years to see that land developed.
I'd rather the city offer NGA the 60 acres south of Howard Street, land those jobs, and leave the other 60 for exciting urban redevelopment, even if it takes 15 years to see that land developed.
Buster Brown would have to stay Cass or no Cass. Otherwise, an excellent compromise my good man.
At this point, the NGIA has already narrowed it down to 6. Floating other possibilities, which while they might be better, seems like a waste of breath. It's either Pruit-Igoe or we lose the jobs to Fenton, or worse, Scott.
While I understand that you want any development on the North side to be aesthetically pleasing and you want to be respectful of everyone involved, it seems you just can't win when trying to do anything.
Draw up plans for a billion dollars of investment? Eh, maybe not.
Seven thousand jobs on site that's been empty for 40 years? Nope.
All across the country urban property is in demand. Yet, from immigrants to hipsters to business, there's something about the North Side that people find very unappealing. We're talking about land a mere mile from a supposed major city center and you basically can't give it away.
Retaining quasi-governmental jobs should be at least one tiny thing you can count on a Democrat controlled city to accomplish.
Now the VA and possibly this is headed for the burbs.
This is very, very bad stuff and really depressing.
leeharveyawesome wrote:While I understand that you want any development on the North side to be aesthetically pleasing and you want to be respectful of everyone involved, it seems you just can't win when trying to do anything.
Draw up plans for a billion dollars of investment? Eh, maybe not.
Seven thousand jobs on site that's been empty for 40 years? Nope.
All across the country urban property is in demand. Yet, from immigrants to hipsters to business, there's something about the North Side that people find very unappealing. We're talking about land a mere mile from a supposed major city center and you basically can't give it away.
Retaining quasi-governmental jobs should be at least one tiny thing you can count on a Democrat controlled city to accomplish.
Now the VA and possibly this is headed for the burbs.
This is very, very bad stuff and really depressing.
I get that. You can't make everyone happy, and it'll be pretty bad if the City can't make this work. Perhaps they are trying to go overkill in their land offer to make sure they don't lose on this one. I'm not sure. In a lot of ways though, offering so much of this land could be counterproductive to economic development longer term. I'd just like to know why the City is putting so much land on the table for this. They may have good reasons, but I suspect that this is, in part, a way for Mckee to unload a lot of land at once and get a "win", regardless of the planning outcomes.
kinger wrote:I think the confidence lacks because "Downtown" isn't luring hardly any development to Downtown, much less a few blocks away. "Prime" for redevelopment is subjective. I'm immersed in commercial real estate in STL city and outside of this website, Pruitt-Igoe gets zero attention from anyone. I'm not saying this site is ideal for this development, but I think the idea that if this doesn't happen, it'll be many years before it gets attention is an accurate assessment.
I appreciate your assessment, but I believe the P-I site will gain increased attention in the coming years. The fact of the matter is the entire Central Corridor is seeing substantial development and, barring another economic downturn, there are no signs this will abate any time soon. Downtown West isn't blazing hot with redevelopment compared to some other Central Corridor neighborhoods but it is continuing to progress.... by the time P-I would be ready for use (early 2020s), the area will have pretty much run out of available properties for residential conversion and I believe we'll start to see a healthy amount of infill, especially if 22nd St. Interchange and/or Saint Louis Streetcar get built. Redevelopment is also closing in on Jefferson from the West.
Having 30+ cleared acres just blocks from downtown is an extremely valuable asset for a renewing City... you just don't get that kind of opportunity very often; we need to make sure whatever goes in there is appropriate and not necessarily take the first thing that comes along.
At this point, the NGIA has already narrowed it down to 6. Floating other possibilities, which while they might be better, seems like a waste of breath. It's either Pruit-Igoe or we lose the jobs to Fenton, or worse, Scott.
I don't know how true that is. I know NextSTL is a pretty reliable source but has the site selection been corroborated. Even if it is 100% accurate, there is plenty of room for them to change direction depending on a lot of factors, not least of which is politics.
I'm thoroughly convinced there are at least 3 viable spots in the city that would be better for the city than Pruitt Igoe and as good or better for the NGA. Pointing them out serves two purposes, it publicly suggests to the NGA and to people who can influence the eventual decision (read politicians) that there is a better way and that perhaps they should revisit the selection process. If politicians are convinced Pruitt Igoe is the only viable place for NGA in the city and Pruitt Igoe is eliminated for some other reason (enviromental impact, fallout related to potential imminent domain, etc.) then they will not go to bat for the city.
It also highlights the failure of political leaders hold to their commitments to deliver ANYTHING resembling what was originally envision for the Northside. The idea of putting NGA at Pruitt Igoe just strikes me as a violation of the public's trust. Personally I don't think McKee has earned the payday and the politicians just seem ready to abandon ship. If McKee can't deliver, then fine he should lose the money he risked and someone else can give it a go. His strategy of gobbling up land and assuming he could come up with something to do with it later, should not be rewarded.
^^ So you are thinking as well what I'm thinking that there are better locations in the city anyway that is not being discussed. Were you thinking of places along the north riverfront area near the MSD facility? Since I was looking and spotted a few areas in that vicinity that would look like a better location for this project. It would not be disruptive to a neighborhood and it would be a more secure and discreet location.
^ My top two sites to look at would be the 9250/9300 Riverview next to CementLand, and 11110 Riverview at the foot of the New Chain of Rocks Bridge where they proposed a new casino but Cape Girardeau won the casino liceanse. Both are owned by a single entity, both have substantial public land around them to augment the land available as needed. Both have a decent setback from any railroad track which was sited as a security concern somewhere... Both use the river as a buffer theoretically reducing the acreage needed and river barge traffic is limited there because of the chain of rocks, both would have spectacular river views of undeveloped land (Mosentien and Chouteau Islands). I'd lean toward 11110 Riverview because it has better access via I270, and they appear to have done more to improve the site by bringing in fill dirt to raise the land elevation due to flood concerns, and a shiny new facility would look great driving across the New Chain of Rocks Bridge.
My third would be at Carondolet Coke. I heard there was potential for an alternative development there, but I wouldn't think they would turn their nose up at NGA if they came in and bought it all. Plus it'd probably employ more people than whatever Green streets is looking at for that site as industrial is a low density use. That said Carondolet Coke is better for river industries since its on the main channel of barge traffic (no chain of rocks)
The primary reason to keep them in the city is the roughly 3 million in earning taxes that they generate for the city. Forfeiting that would be a huge blow. If GSA had consolidated downtown instead of in Overland I would be less concerned. Where ever they are they will be a huge dead spot so keeping them out of or on the edge of neighborhoods would be best I think it will be a soft barrier (the razor wire will probably be screened by vegetation. but it will be a barrier none the less.
A couple of downsides for the city are for these locations are that there is little or no adjacent retail, and whatever there is or would develop, would in a large part be in the county due to their proximity to the city county border. That said that's in someways an upside since the county can view a location there as a small win instead of a loss, which means a semi united front. Honestly why would the county even fight for these jobs... They don't do income tax, the facilities ability to spur retail is pretty limited, and the feds don't pay property taxes. Honestly as opposed to trying to take a huge develop-able chunk of land of the county tax roles, the county should be pushing government jobs to the city in exchange for private sector jobs. Of course that assuming jobs were just chips you can pass around and trade but the point is government jobs have a higher value to the city than the county and supporting the city might garner them some good will when it comes to economic development.
^ I think you may be a bit off on the Riverview site..... the proposal for the casino was on property then owned by the Koman family south of the New Chain o' Rocks. That has since been sold to Great Rivers. 11110 is north of the bridge and is currently zoned residential... I could be wrong, but my bet is that it was washed out in a flood and may be problematic for redevelopment. However, there also was some controversy over the County re-zoning some land a few years back that would have allowed a large redevelopment I think maybe just north of 11110 Riverview -- I seem to recall something about golf course and recreation involved -- but details remain foggy for this old fogey.
More importantly, however, I think that while there probably are some other sites available in the city -- and there seems to be plenty of room for new construction on the massive parking lots at the current site -- it appears that the City powers-to-be want Northside Regeneration. I just don't see overcoming that.
I'm trying to do a look around and they mentioned the railroad tracks may be an issue. I was looking at areas not far to the north of Merchants Bridge. There is tracks near the riverfront there but it looks like they tend to be for local industries and not mainline rail tracks. (Actually the rail tracks and bridges are an infrastructure need that should be looked at as well for other things like HSR in the future) I spotted that maybe something like around 125 Prarie Avenue next to MSD could work (and they would have a level of security itself) Also around 6200 Hall Street may work along with other places along Hall. I am just not sure what sort of vacancy a lot of the facilities are in this area and the track usage of the area if its main track or local industrial rail. But its also that a number of these facilities could be secure in and of themselves which would make it more workable.
I think you may be a bit off on the Riverview site..... the proposal for the casino was on property then owned by the Koman family south of the New Chain o' Rocks. That has since been sold to Great Rivers.
The second came from a new entrant called PlainJoe Development LLC, which appears to be a graphic design firm based near Los Angeles. It outlines a $284 million project with a casino, hotel and retail complex on 70 acres just north of the Chain of Rocks. PlainJoe's principal, Peter McGowan, did not return a call Friday. The land is owned by BBN LLC, whose registered agent is a St. Louis attorney named Stephen Evans. He didn't return a call seeking comment either.
70 acres... how much is at the Pruit Igoe Site?... Also ther may have been flooding issues but at least based on google maps it looks like the entire site has be raised a couple feet above the surrounding area using fill. I did read a mention about issues of parking runoff to MSD but if this site is ever developed at all this will be an issue at some point. Plus the feds will be a lot more gentle on enviromental factors than heavy industry would.
I'm just an armchair developer but I still think someone should give this site a serious look for NGA. If they already did look at it, then i'd like to here the reason they rejected it in favor of the other sites which based on my cursory evaluation this site is IMHO superior to all of them. BTW I'm not an idealoge, if the reasons were convincing I would accept them I readily admit putting NGA in the city and still delivering on the promise of a vibrant urban enviroment is a tough fit. Personally I would like to see NGA out of the city from a land use perspective, but the city's revenue would take a huge hit with this loss unless someone else took their place in trade. Of course if somone brokered a deal where the GSA consolidated downtown and NGA moved to a newly renovated Overland Building that would be superior to this option. The odds of that are probably a tiny fraction above zero but I keep dreaming.
