National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency Relocation

framer · PostAug 16, 2024#10012024-08-16T13:10+00:00

St. Louis Intelligence Facility Nears Completion

A new intelligence facility, built in St. Louis by the US Army Corps of Engineers, will house the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency. The $1.7 billion project includes blast-resistant walls and SCIF standards, with 15% minority-owned contractors. The construction team achieved 3M man-hours without major incidents, with safety a top priority.

https://www.constructionequipmentguide. ... tion/65587

whitherSTL · PostAug 16, 2024#10022024-08-16T13:18+00:00

I drive by this once a week. I don’t see how this helps north STL. It’s a fortress. Urbanists cannot be happy with this but I suppose their bias towards any city development will cloud their judgement.

quincunx · PostAug 16, 2024#10032024-08-16T13:28+00:00

The concerns about it being a drive to island fortress were much discussed here.

STLEnginerd · PostAug 16, 2024#10042024-08-16T14:15+00:00

whitherSTL wrote: ↑
Aug 16, 2024
I drive by this once a week. I don’t see how this helps north STL. It’s a fortress. Urbanists cannot be happy with this but I suppose their bias towards any city development will cloud their judgement.

So this is a thought i have occasionally that i struggle with because of the clear class and by extension racial implications.

If I'm a developer and my goal is to make money i have to invest in property. I buy an empty lot and build a house. The house i build can't sell for the cost to build + profit because the whole block is a wreck. So now i have to be rich enough to buy up the block and build the whole block. SO now i have throw alot more money but the problem now is the next block over is dragging down the price i can get. So i need to buy up the next block, and then the neighborhood, and then the whole of the northside. as the area grows the perimeter which has effects on the values of the properties that perimeter also grows.

Now it seems to me that the northside has fallen so far and the cost to build has risen so much and the northside is so connected that its very difficult for a developer to come in and get a good return without laying out an unsustainable amount of money.

So I wonder if things like NGA which break up the northside make developing the northside more attractve because it creates the opportunity to develop areas in more manageable chunks and get a good return. Alternatively i think a well connected grid makes the city healthier over the long-term as long as there is a built environment in place, and i think it very sad that even a well meaning person who has no animus toward the largely poor and largely minority communities has a very difficult time seeing a path to profitability. I personally kind of think this is the trap both the Roberts Bros and McKee fell into where they thought to own the whole damn city to develop it profitably and put out so much capital to buy up properties that there was none left to actually develop the properties. A few year later they are just trying to avoid total bankruptcy.

whitherSTL · PostAug 16, 2024#10052024-08-16T14:58+00:00

well said.

Auggie · PostAug 16, 2024#10062024-08-16T18:17+00:00

whitherSTL wrote: ↑
Aug 16, 2024
I drive by this once a week. I don’t see how this helps north STL. It’s a fortress. Urbanists cannot be happy with this but I suppose their bias towards any city development will cloud their judgement.

It looks way better than 90% empty lots with zilch going on. Employees are going to patronize city establishments for lunch or after work and future employees will be more inclined to live in the city because of how close it is.

JaneJacobsGhost · PostAug 16, 2024#10072024-08-16T18:51+00:00

Auggie wrote: ↑
Aug 16, 2024
whitherSTL wrote: ↑
Aug 16, 2024
I drive by this once a week. I don’t see how this helps north STL. It’s a fortress. Urbanists cannot be happy with this but I suppose their bias towards any city development will cloud their judgement.
It looks way better than 90% empty lots with zilch going on. Employees are going to patronize city establishments for lunch or after work and future employees will be more inclined to live in the city because of how close it is.

You do know that this agency is already located in the city, right?

framer · PostAug 16, 2024#10082024-08-16T19:02+00:00

Sure, but there was a very real threat of it moving to Illinois. Building it at this site kept it in the City.

Debaliviere91 · PostAug 16, 2024#10092024-08-16T19:15+00:00

It was definitely worth it to build on this site just to keep it in the city. Im skeptical of it having a broader positive impact on the Northside though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

JaneJacobsGhost · PostAug 16, 2024#10102024-08-16T19:15+00:00

That’s fine but these are existing employees in the city that already patronize city establishments and consider living in StL.

jshank83 · PostAug 16, 2024#10112024-08-16T19:34+00:00

I think you could definitely see more employees wind up living on Wash ave. This location is much better related to downtown (at least downtown west) than the current one which is pretty hemmed in by a bunch of industrial, highway, river.

I don’t think it’s going to be some big transforminal change but this location is much better than the current for a variety of reasons.

Auggie · PostAug 16, 2024#10122024-08-16T21:17+00:00

JaneJacobsGhost wrote: ↑
Aug 16, 2024
Auggie wrote: ↑
Aug 16, 2024
whitherSTL wrote: ↑
Aug 16, 2024
I drive by this once a week. I don’t see how this helps north STL. It’s a fortress. Urbanists cannot be happy with this but I suppose their bias towards any city development will cloud their judgement.
It looks way better than 90% empty lots with zilch going on. Employees are going to patronize city establishments for lunch or after work and future employees will be more inclined to live in the city because of how close it is.
You do know that this agency is already located in the city, right?

Yes, but there was at one time a very high chance that this was going to be moved out to Shiloh, Illinois by Scott Air Force Base. If that had happened, city establishments would not be patronized and long term employees would shift closer to Shiloh and would consider the city less and less simply because of the commute.

STLinCHI · PostAug 16, 2024#10132024-08-16T21:22+00:00

I'd surmise the current location had impact on neighborhoods such as Soulard and Benton Park over the last 4 decades. It would seem logical the new location could benefit if history repeats. The one difference being loss of historical structures in the new location vs the southside neighborhoods.

delmar2debaliviere2downtown · PostAug 19, 2024#10142024-08-19T12:51+00:00

STLEnginerd wrote: ↑
Aug 16, 2024
whitherSTL wrote: ↑
Aug 16, 2024
I drive by this once a week. I don’t see how this helps north STL. It’s a fortress. Urbanists cannot be happy with this but I suppose their bias towards any city development will cloud their judgement.
So this is a thought i have occasionally that i struggle with because of the clear class and by extension racial implications.

If I'm a developer and my goal is to make money i have to invest in property. I buy an empty lot and build a house. The house i build can't sell for the cost to build + profit because the whole block is a wreck. So now i have to be rich enough to buy up the block and build the whole block. SO now i have throw alot more money but the problem now is the next block over is dragging down the price i can get. So i need to buy up the next block, and then the neighborhood, and then the whole of the northside. as the area grows the perimeter which has effects on the values of the properties that perimeter also grows.

Now it seems to me that the northside has fallen so far and the cost to build has risen so much and the northside is so connected that its very difficult for a developer to come in and get a good return without laying out an unsustainable amount of money.

So I wonder if things like NGA which break up the northside make developing the northside more attractve because it creates the opportunity to develop areas in more manageable chunks and get a good return. Alternatively i think a well connected grid makes the city healthier over the long-term as long as there is a built environment in place, and i think it very sad that even a well meaning person who has no animus toward the largely poor and largely minority communities has a very difficult time seeing a path to profitability. I personally kind of think this is the trap both the Roberts Bros and McKee fell into where they thought to own the whole damn city to develop it profitably and put out so much capital to buy up properties that there was none left to actually develop the properties. A few year later they are just trying to avoid total bankruptcy.

From an urbanist perspective, sure, the design is poor. It would’ve been great for the structure to meet the corners with parking tucked away. The federal government has been notorious for not embracing urbanism in their developments for many years. On the other hand, Pruitt Igoe had already put the site in a hard place to come back from so adding 5,000 jobs to the area is a positive. There were street and sidewalk improvements, and this will help getting the Jefferson metrolink. The metrolink would induce mixed development.

Theres a lot of vacant blocks in North StL, industry in North Riverfront, and tech around north downtown. Maybe the area can fill out with job centers and attract development and activity that way. Residential will not happen on its own in North StL at this point without the convenient access to jobs. We really need anything we can get to fill in the area around Wash Ave and up. Our downtown and midtown completely drops off to the north.

I believe that Old North and St. Louis Place could turn around rather quickly with one or two more notable developments. The land between downtown and those neighborhoods would then become very attractive to developers too.

symphonicpoet · PostAug 20, 2024#10152024-08-20T23:07+00:00

Another thing that doesn't get said much is that this opens up the current site for some kind of alternative use that might be more open to the community. There are reputedly some very historic structures there, but you can't visit them because of the security. It was built at about the same time as Jefferson Barracks, to replace Fort Bellefontaine, if I recall my history correctly. It's hard to make out from aerial photos just how much is historic, but there's a few buildings there that might have some interesting stories to tell, and even the main structure might be pretty useful for something less secure and equally productive. This could be a win/win.

dbInSouthCity · PostAug 21, 2024#10162024-08-21T00:49+00:00

^ once NGA departs, the old facility will go to Scott AFB who will in turn put it on the market to sell. Scott gets it since it’s the nearest agency that can own facilities.

framer · PostAug 21, 2024#10172024-08-21T01:13+00:00

Sounds as convoluted as English inheritance law.

imperialmog · PostAug 21, 2024#10182024-08-21T02:53+00:00

STLEnginerd wrote: ↑
Aug 16, 2024
whitherSTL wrote: ↑
Aug 16, 2024
I drive by this once a week. I don’t see how this helps north STL. It’s a fortress. Urbanists cannot be happy with this but I suppose their bias towards any city development will cloud their judgement.
So this is a thought i have occasionally that i struggle with because of the clear class and by extension racial implications.

If I'm a developer and my goal is to make money i have to invest in property. I buy an empty lot and build a house. The house i build can't sell for the cost to build + profit because the whole block is a wreck. So now i have to be rich enough to buy up the block and build the whole block. SO now i have throw alot more money but the problem now is the next block over is dragging down the price i can get. So i need to buy up the next block, and then the neighborhood, and then the whole of the northside. as the area grows the perimeter which has effects on the values of the properties that perimeter also grows.

Now it seems to me that the northside has fallen so far and the cost to build has risen so much and the northside is so connected that its very difficult for a developer to come in and get a good return without laying out an unsustainable amount of money.

So I wonder if things like NGA which break up the northside make developing the northside more attractve because it creates the opportunity to develop areas in more manageable chunks and get a good return. Alternatively i think a well connected grid makes the city healthier over the long-term as long as there is a built environment in place, and i think it very sad that even a well meaning person who has no animus toward the largely poor and largely minority communities has a very difficult time seeing a path to profitability. I personally kind of think this is the trap both the Roberts Bros and McKee fell into where they thought to own the whole damn city to develop it profitably and put out so much capital to buy up properties that there was none left to actually develop the properties. A few year later they are just trying to avoid total bankruptcy.

I was thinking about this element too. It will make it easier to invest and redevelop areas to the east and southeast of NGA. Get the sense too redevelopment of North City is going to happen since what's holding it back will be less of a problem in the future.

dbInSouthCity · PostAug 21, 2024#10192024-08-21T03:21+00:00

framer wrote: ↑
Aug 21, 2024
Sounds as convoluted as English inheritance law.

https://disposal.gsa.gov/resource/15087 ... ngAgencies

Those can “own” land and even fewer can dispose of it

jshank83 · PostAug 21, 2024#10202024-08-21T03:25+00:00

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑
Aug 21, 2024
^ once NGA departs, the old facility will go to Scott AFB who will in turn put it on the market to sell. Scott gets it since it’s the nearest agency that can own facilities.

Pretty sure there is a long protocol they have to follow to sell it though.

Basically every federal agency gets a chance to say they want to buy it in some kind of ranked order. I doubt any do (except maybe the coast guard if they want to expand, although it’s probably still doubtful), but it has to go through the list. After that I’m not sure if state or other government entities get a shot before it goes to just anyone.

But from what I’ve heard it won’t be a quick process, not that anything federal ever is.

delmar2debaliviere2downtown · PostMar 16, 2025#10212025-03-16T16:57+00:00

Place looks like Lumon from Severance.

Hoping it leads to some new construction around the campus and some development on all those Northside Regen sites and a plan for Pruitt Igoe (maybe some other related corporation will want to go here?). Miss the Buster Brown shoe building.

Street/sidewalk improvements look good. Will all look better and get some development I think if we pry land away from McKee and get the light rail up there.

kg2024 · PostMar 16, 2025#10222025-03-16T21:39+00:00

Here are some views from the east side of the complex along 22nd St. The entry security checkpoints are being constructed now. Being the side of the campus that has the most existing density and I would think be the first area to have increased development, it is disappointing to see how carceral looking the new construction is. Hoping that a sidewalk is built around the complex and landscaping can soften it a bit.

I'm new to the city and wasn't around for all the discussions and planning for this project, and obviously it's a win it stayed in the city and kept jobs here, but not seeing how this does anything for the surrounding area design-wise. A well maintained field with a handful of buildings is better than a dilapidated one I suppose (except now it's nearly a mile to walk around it). Also interesting to see that they've placed blue emergency call pylons literally every 100 feet or so around the staff walking path despite it being behind a 10 foot fence and heavily guarded gates

+1

pattimagee · PostMar 17, 2025#10232025-03-17T14:09+00:00

^wonder if they are waiting for Spring to start landscaping... sure could use a few thousand trees haha

quincunx · PostMar 17, 2025#10242025-03-17T14:25+00:00

It being a drive-to island fortress replacing many blocks of city (mostly destroyed of course) was a big detriment.

framer · PostJun 15, 2025#10252025-06-15T15:39+00:00

Update from the NGA:

This spring, the new National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency facility under construction in north St. Louis is getting its finishing touches, including wall finishes, room signage, furniture installation, IT installation, landscaping and more, in anticipation of its opening this winter.

https://www.nga.mil/news/NGA_West_Sprin ... B4u74mOn2w

National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency Relocation

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