And with an actual Metro connection, it's possible that their numbers would continue to increase. Is it worth however many millions of dollars? Not sure, but it's not the worst expansion idea.
Fair point. Was not aware of that much growth there. I might be a bit more on board (no pun intended haha) now.BellaVilla wrote:Its not a ghost town. They had 300K passengers last year.The Mayor wrote:Gotcha, thanks for the info.wabash wrote: ^I think $96 million would get you pretty close. It helps that this would be greenfield construction. The 2003 College to Shiloh-Scott extension was paid for with 80% Illinois funds and 20% St. Clair funds. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is a comparable match.
In theory I'm not opposed to this, I'm just really wondering if it's necessary. That airport is a ghost town.
It's Illinois. God knows where most of that money will end up.BellaVilla wrote:
I can't believe that extending a low capacity railroad track less than 2 miles will cost almost $100 mil.
^Looks like it would be at least 4 miles, but probably closer to 5, and could require an elevated portion over Seibert Road and a bridge over Silver Creek along with the station infrastructure at MidAmerica. So a few items to add up there even though it is greenfield.
Not to downplay the work that went into getting this funding or Illinois’ virtual insolvency, but wouldn’t it be nice to live in a state where $96 million is thrown Metrolink‘s way almost as an afterthought/rounding error intended to appease the “downstaters”, let alone the primary investment/purpose of a $45 billion spending bill?
Getting $96 million in capital funds for Metrolink from the MO legislature seems absurd.
Not to downplay the work that went into getting this funding or Illinois’ virtual insolvency, but wouldn’t it be nice to live in a state where $96 million is thrown Metrolink‘s way almost as an afterthought/rounding error intended to appease the “downstaters”, let alone the primary investment/purpose of a $45 billion spending bill?
Getting $96 million in capital funds for Metrolink from the MO legislature seems absurd.
Waiting on national funds I think. They pay 90% of it.BellaVilla wrote: I understand though. The growth has been lightning quick, relative to where they were only 5 years ago. They were trying to renovate and expand modestly a year or so ago. Not sure how those plans are coming along
This would make me more likely to fly out of Midamerica. I had considered it in the past but usually it was when I was going to fly into one airport and out of the other or visa versa. But I didn't want to leave a car at midamerica then have to go back and get it later. At least they have the shuttle from scott now. So that is helpful.
Whether it's a boondoggle or not, the bottom line is that Illinois cares about funding infrastructure in a way that is foreign to Missouri. Could you imagine what St. Louis could do with the Metrolink if it received a modest $50 million per year from the state? It would allow for bonding and free up so much needed local funds for expansion.
With that said, I have confidence in County Executive Page's take on Metrolink expansion. Apparently, he does not think Metrolink Expansion Study should be held captive by these "safety studies". I guess Stenger didn't think a major metropolitan area should be able to walk and chew gum or he was just using Metrolink "crime" as political tool to scare his South County constituents. Remember it was Stenger that came out against the Ferguson Commission recommendation to expand Metrolink from Bayless to Ferguson. Unfortunately, the N-S line is only financially feasible or even makes sense from a ridership perspective if it reaches into the inner ring suburbs of NoCo/SoCo. The density may be in the city, but the county holds the purse strings and without a cooperative County executive you will not see the system expanded in either the city or county. I would love for the city and county to get on the same page and push for a regional infrastructure package that would include a built on N/S line and Westport. At that point, I think we get a balanced spine of a system from a regional perspective, with BRT overlays it would be awesome.
"The chairman of the County Council — Councilman Sam Page, D-Creve Coeur — said Wednesday that he believed that the council should take up the expansion study question sooner than Stenger’s current timetable.
He said that although it was reasonable to discuss expansion in the context of “security best practices,” the council could take up the issue in the next couple of months."
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... d3e72.html
With that said, I have confidence in County Executive Page's take on Metrolink expansion. Apparently, he does not think Metrolink Expansion Study should be held captive by these "safety studies". I guess Stenger didn't think a major metropolitan area should be able to walk and chew gum or he was just using Metrolink "crime" as political tool to scare his South County constituents. Remember it was Stenger that came out against the Ferguson Commission recommendation to expand Metrolink from Bayless to Ferguson. Unfortunately, the N-S line is only financially feasible or even makes sense from a ridership perspective if it reaches into the inner ring suburbs of NoCo/SoCo. The density may be in the city, but the county holds the purse strings and without a cooperative County executive you will not see the system expanded in either the city or county. I would love for the city and county to get on the same page and push for a regional infrastructure package that would include a built on N/S line and Westport. At that point, I think we get a balanced spine of a system from a regional perspective, with BRT overlays it would be awesome.
"The chairman of the County Council — Councilman Sam Page, D-Creve Coeur — said Wednesday that he believed that the council should take up the expansion study question sooner than Stenger’s current timetable.
He said that although it was reasonable to discuss expansion in the context of “security best practices,” the council could take up the issue in the next couple of months."
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... d3e72.html
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^Which is why our own state universities are also increasingly expensive and decreasingly funny. U of I at Champaign-Urbana still has more than half again as many students and more than three times the endowment of U of M at C. I'm dead sure our own universities would KILL for Illinois grade funding. Yes, Illinois has higher taxes. They also have much better services if you make a quick apples to apple comparison. They just don't put them in the St. Louis area, by and in large. Why fund Missouri when Missouri won't do it?
All that said, I hope this works out. I'm all in favor of something that strengthens the metro east.
All that said, I hope this works out. I'm all in favor of something that strengthens the metro east.
No doubt if Missouri had better funded higher education we would be seeing much faster growth. Many people go to colleges in certain cities and end up staying there. Also, it's not just a northern vs southern phenomenon. North Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee, and Texas all fund their colleges at a better rate than Missouri. No wonder these are also the fastest growing states in the south, aside from Florida, which is really growing for completely different reasons. We could have taken the Minnesota route 20 years ago when we were still a relatively moderate state, but Missouri took the Mississippi route and we are now reaping the negative fruit of that. My hope is that stuff gets so stupid in the state that people will eventually wake up and take control. Missouri may be a socially conservative state, but when you don't even properly fund education and infrastructure (even when your state has two large metropolitan areas) you are doomed.symphonicpoet wrote: ^Which is why our own state universities are also increasingly expensive and decreasingly funny. U of I at Champaign-Urbana still has more than half again as many students and more than three times the endowment of U of M at C. I'm dead sure our own universities would KILL for Illinois grade funding. Yes, Illinois has higher taxes. They also have much better services if you make a quick apples to apple comparison. They just don't put them in the St. Louis area, by and in large. Why fund Missouri when Missouri won't do it?
All that said, I hope this works out. I'm all in favor of something that strengthens the metro east.
This. They should try everything they can to land Spirit over there or let Allegiant pretty much own the place. Let MidAmerica be one big ULCC hub. Being able to get there cheaply and easily adds a lot. I'm not putting up with a $100 flight if I have to spend another 30/40$ in gas, 45 min of driving each way, and worry about leaving my car on a lot the whole time.chaifetz10 wrote: And with an actual Metro connection, it's possible that their numbers would continue to increase. Is it worth however many millions of dollars? Not sure, but it's not the worst expansion idea.
A previously proposed route (the light dotted line) for the MidAmerica Metrolink extension from the St. Clair/Scott NGA proposal:
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Without NGA a station between Scott and MidAmerica seems entirely unnecessary, as proposed above. Seems like the sort of situation where they could leave it on the table as a future option without building it now. Time will tell.
Without NGA a station between Scott and MidAmerica seems entirely unnecessary, as proposed above. Seems like the sort of situation where they could leave it on the table as a future option without building it now. Time will tell.
More detail from the Post-Dispatch.
$96 million covers the entire cost. No local, or federal, match required.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... op-story-1
$96 million covers the entire cost. No local, or federal, match required.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... op-story-1
Proof that lack of Metrolink expansion in the city and Missouri side of metro, specifically N-S line, is more political than anything. If leadership seriously got behind it it's done. No doubt N-S would have more ridership than a line through the cornfields in Illinois.The Mayor wrote: More detail from the Post-Dispatch.
$96 million covers the entire cost. No local, or federal, match required.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... op-story-1
^It's comments like that I wish I could just up-vote or "like". But yes, totally agreed.
Not necessarily involving N-S, maybe more Daniel Boone or another extension, but it's good to have Stenger and his incessant safety studies, consultant reviews and other BS delay tactics out of office. The new County regime doesn't need to be head over heels passionate about MetroLink, just competent at applying for funding and not raiding existing voter approved transit funding to get something done.
Not necessarily involving N-S, maybe more Daniel Boone or another extension, but it's good to have Stenger and his incessant safety studies, consultant reviews and other BS delay tactics out of office. The new County regime doesn't need to be head over heels passionate about MetroLink, just competent at applying for funding and not raiding existing voter approved transit funding to get something done.
Would love to see county/city cooperation come to an agreement. If we could get N/S and Westport built, that is a hell of a system for a metro of 2.9 Million. With the right zoning overlays and complementary bus routes, St. Louis gets a lot more interesting. Even with slow growth.wabash wrote: ^It's comments like that I wish I could just up-vote or "like". But yes, totally agreed.
Not necessarily involving N-S, maybe more Daniel Boone or another extension, but it's good to have Stenger and his incessant safety studies, consultant reviews and other BS delay tactics out of office. The new County regime doesn't need to be head over heels passionate about MetroLink, just competent at applying for funding and not raiding existing voter approved transit funding to get something done.
^ & ^^ Agree with both of you, and if I'm remembering correctly, Page has already come out and said he sees no real reason the County can't move forward with expansion studies while safety studies/improvements are considered. So that's a step in the right direction.
A little background from an April Post-Dispatch article:
"The chairman of the County Council — Councilman Sam Page, D-Creve Coeur — said Wednesday that he believed that the council should take up the expansion study question sooner than Stenger’s current timetable."
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... d3e72.html
This was obviously before everything blew up with Stenger, so I could see this hitting the back burner while the County finds its legs again, but my guess is Page won't be as hostile as Stenger was.
I don't know that I'd agree with "politics" (at least at the local level) necessarily being the reason there is no N/S line. N/S is a bigger line with a far more complex construction than an expansion in a cornfield on land with the necessary studies already done. And most importantly it would need vast amounts of federal funding which is a tossup at best with this current administration (there's your politics lol). Also helping this expansion is being in Illinois where a paltry $96 million is just pocket change to pacify the downstaters while billions upon billions are poured into Chicago. No such luck in Missouri for that. Ok...so maybe there are some politics involved here haha.
I just don't think local leaders can do much about those politics. To their credit they got voter approval, the route study just wrapped up and now it looks like they're moving on to the environmental stage...it's slow...but it's still progress.
A little background from an April Post-Dispatch article:
"The chairman of the County Council — Councilman Sam Page, D-Creve Coeur — said Wednesday that he believed that the council should take up the expansion study question sooner than Stenger’s current timetable."
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... d3e72.html
This was obviously before everything blew up with Stenger, so I could see this hitting the back burner while the County finds its legs again, but my guess is Page won't be as hostile as Stenger was.
I don't know that I'd agree with "politics" (at least at the local level) necessarily being the reason there is no N/S line. N/S is a bigger line with a far more complex construction than an expansion in a cornfield on land with the necessary studies already done. And most importantly it would need vast amounts of federal funding which is a tossup at best with this current administration (there's your politics lol). Also helping this expansion is being in Illinois where a paltry $96 million is just pocket change to pacify the downstaters while billions upon billions are poured into Chicago. No such luck in Missouri for that. Ok...so maybe there are some politics involved here haha.
I just don't think local leaders can do much about those politics. To their credit they got voter approval, the route study just wrapped up and now it looks like they're moving on to the environmental stage...it's slow...but it's still progress.
So...let's assume 15% of Mid-America passengers (currently 330k annually), and 20% of airport employees (currently 500) will use Metrolink. That would be about 100k rides a year to or from the Mid-America station.
Very roughly, the construction cost of the extension per ride over the next ten years = $100 MM / (100k * 10 years) = $100.
Very roughly, the construction cost of the extension per ride over the next ten years = $100 MM / (100k * 10 years) = $100.
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Out of curiosity, what did the construction costs for the cross county extension end up being per rider? I know the price was $675 million, but can't find ridership numbers for its first 10 years.
For the fist 10 years about $30 per rider.chaifetz10 wrote: Out of curiosity, what did the construction costs for the cross county extension end up being per rider? I know the price was $675 million, but can't find ridership numbers for its first 10 years.
Is it fair to use the $675M as the numerator? The rebuilt FPP wasn't free and was needed anyways.
^There are a few "final" numbers floating around out there for Cross County, but yeah, $675 million seems fair, even if there were additional infrastructure benefits all along FPPW.
Ya'll ready to get mad today? This is one of the dumbest segments I have seen.
https://fox2now.com/2019/07/09/you-paid ... s-airport/
https://fox2now.com/2019/07/09/you-paid ... s-airport/
I'm not mad. I expect nothing less from that charlatan Elliot Davis. That $96 million was just a pacifier for the downstaters while Illinois pumps billions upon billions into Chicago.ImprovSTL wrote: Ya'll ready to get mad today? This is one of the dumbest segments I have seen.
https://fox2now.com/2019/07/09/you-paid ... s-airport/
Regarding the MetroLink security angle, that command is led by St. Louis County (a jurisdiction that has literally no say over how Illinois spends it's money). To their credit, St. Clair County has cross-deputized their officers to patrol in the City so they seem to be serious about making things better while St. Louis County continues to dither around.
Having said all that, there is something to be said for questioning this extension. Yes, MidAmerica has seen some solid growth, but is it worth a MetroLink expansion? It's not a stupid question.