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PostDec 06, 2005#126

Southslider, have a question:



Elsewhere you have sugested that any future metrolink expansion must be done where development and density exist, no more speculative exercises. If the bottle district and ballpark village are sucessful (ie. get 75-100% of proposed built) do you think that the added density would be enough to see a downtown loop built seperate of any other extensions.



Second, quesiton what funding sources hold the best probablity of getting the money for a new line. I assume that these sources might be very dependent on the sucess of the new line when it opens. How conservative were the projectison for the new Cross County extension?

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PostDec 06, 2005#127

Boy, JM, actually several questions, but I'll try, including some speculation, when downtown and funding alternatives remain an unknown:



In Downtown, an array of streets will be considered. Many stakeholders dislike the previously identified streets of the Downtown Loop (14th-Market-7th-Washington), especially Market and Washington. Metro itself has created a bi-directional bus loop of multiple bus routes along Market, Washington and 4th/Broadway.



Given recent and planned increased residential density in the Loft District, Old Post Office Square, Bottle District and Ballpark Village, the loop or similar downtown concepts will likely try to tap these trip-generators by exploring alternate streets. In addition to a loop, other explored concepts may include a couplet of parallel one-way streets, a transit mall, and/or running directly through downtown mostly north-south.



If looking at the loop concept, I would guess that a revised loop would likely fall within the boundaries of 14th to the west, Clark to the south, 4th to the east, and Cole to the north. The north edge of the loop would likely be between Cole and Locust; the south edge between Olive and Clark; the east edge between 4th and 9th; and the west edge between 10th and 14th. Depending upon one-way-street and even counterflow options, a revised loop could remain counter-clockwise like the original concept or even operate clockwise instead.



But JM, all options for downtown would be built as part of a northside, southside or combined north-south line, not any downtown loop by itself. Nationally, downtown people-movers and monorail-like lines are generally not very successful, though some heritage trolley lines, basically streetcars, have limited success. But the purpose of the Northside-Southside Study is not building something really for tourists or mostly downtown interests. Rather, downtown will benefit in being a transit hub for a region, so that individuals, whether having their final destination or just transferring in downtown, will have improved choices in accessing our region's employment and services in or outside of downtown.



As for funding, federal funding from the New Starts program would be needed, but that also means a local match of about half of the project's capital cost. The current quarter-cent (Prop M) sales tax in St. Louis City and County will be tied up for debt service to pay off Cross County construction. An additional quarter-cent sales tax would only help Metro meet its operating budget shortfalls that Missouri fails to subsidize like other states. Since a gas tax increase with a transit component is unlikely (failed Prop B), the local match for further MetroLink expansion in Missouri will likely have to come entirely from St. Louis City and County.



A three-quarters cent tax could provide a local match, but County voters may not support paying additional taxes for a mostly City north-south line just barely entering the County to Northland (Jennings) and Reavis (Lemay/Mehlville). Perhaps, if the northside and southside extensions were campaigned in conjunction with a line to Westport, then County support would increase. But promising even more extensions would then require closer to a full-cent sales tax and that still doesn't solve the problem of getting MetroLink outside of the I-270 beltway. Many voters think MetroLink should expand westward, but such areas lacking walkable density and bus ridership challenges cost effectiveness.



However, though a public plan of multiple extensions would likely be needed for voter support, the New Starts program is so competitive that regions must be patient, really only building one extension at a time. In addition to competing Missouri MetroLink extensions, Madison County may enact its own sales tax and has much greater state funding options with Illinois. But Madison County, and even the Delmar Loop Trolley (albeit a Small Starts project), are as much in the St. Louis region as all of the competing Missouri MetroLink extensions, definitely testing the patience and cooperation of our region's voters to accept an incremental plan that may not serve their own community as soon as others.



But as with any extension prospect anywhere on the Missouri side and even indirectly for any in Illinois (since a bi-state system operationally), Metro ultimately doesn't have a capital budget problem as much as it faces an operations budget problem, since Missouri lacks a dedicated funding source for transit as other states have.



And JM, the ridership projections are less conservative on Cross County than those for the original line. But the actual ridership of the original line far exceeded its far too conservative projections. Of interest, however, west of Forest Park, projections predict more ridership to Clayton-Shrewsbury than to UMSL-Lambert. This may have been a factor as to why St. Clair County Transit District will now pay for Metro to change from its plans to instead have all Belleville-Shiloh trains head for Clayton, not Lambert. Still, Forest Park will serve as an even split, at least in the short term, with half of the trains going equally to UMSL-Lambert or Clayton-Shrewsbury.

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PostDec 12, 2005#128

This is my first post on the forum, but I've been reading for a while. I am a senior at the University of Notre Dame, originally hailing from Webster, and am planning on coming home with a big group of my friends for Mardi Gras this year. I was wondering if anyone knew when the new cross county metro line would be opening up, because it would be much more convenient to take that downtown and a bus to Soulard than to have to worry about driving. If anyone has heard of any updates, could you let me know? Thanks.

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PostDec 12, 2005#129

Welcome to the forum.



Sorry to say that the line will not be open until next September at the earliest probably October. Too late for Mardi Gras. It will be open for Mardi Gras 2007 though.

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PostDec 12, 2005#130

bred, keep in mind many buses will run during Mardi Gras. A dozen or so friends and I rode it last year to Soulard and it saved us a lot of time and effort. The 80 Shaw-Southampton begins its run very close to the new light rail terminus.

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PostDec 12, 2005#131

Is there any word of the Metrolink running later hours once the extension is complete, currently the Link stops too early to use it for bar hopping, I'd love to be able to take the link from downtown to CWE to Clayton to drink, but right now that isn't possible.

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PostDec 12, 2005#132

As long as Missouri does not have a dedicated funding source, you can expect MetroLink not to have any extended hours of operation beyond its current schedule.



However, despite having to deal with Missouri's severe (and nationally unusual) financial constraints for operations, Cross County will still improve service. The headways between Forest Park and Emerson Park will be cut in half. And all bus lines falling near future stations will soon be connected with those stations. For example, Shaw-Southampton will soon have its terminus at the Shrewsbury-Lansdowne I-44 station, as well as having connections to other bus routes, including the very busy Chippewa. Plus, the Soulard bus route will soon have a terminus at the Manchester-Maplewood station.

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PostDec 13, 2005#133

southslider wrote:As long as Missouri does not have a dedicated funding source, you can expect MetroLink not to have any extended hours of operation beyond its current schedule.



However, despite having to deal with Missouri's severe (and nationally unusual) financial constraints for operations, Cross County will still improve service. The headways between Forest Park and Emerson Park will be cut in half. And all bus lines falling near future stations will soon be connected with those stations. For example, Shaw-Southampton will soon have its terminus at the Shrewsbury-Lansdowne I-44 station, as well as having connections to other bus routes, including the very busy Chippewa. Plus, the Soulard bus route will soon have a terminus at the Manchester-Maplewood station.


I have to doubt that Cross County will cut headways in half from Forest Park to Emerson Park. Without more funding, I don't think peak headways of less than fifteen minutes per line (or 7.5 from FP east to Emerson) will be possible. And that may be optimistic.



As a future heavy user of Cross County, I hope you are right and I'm wrong.

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PostDec 13, 2005#134

bprop's right. Going from peak headways of 10 minutes to 7.5 minutes is not cutting such time in half. What I meant was that the main trunk of the system from Forest Park to East St. Louis will always have half the headways of the branches that wye west of Forest Park.



Given current and near future funding constraints (mostly due to Missouri's lack of a dedicated operations source), peak headways will be 7.5 minutes on the main trunk, while 15 minutes on system branches. However, the main trunk can handle 5 minute headways, with 10 minutes on the branches, if the funding scenario ever improved.



Indeed, public support for MetroLink expansion will likely improve once Cross County is up and running next year. But perhaps, folks might support a local tax levy also going partially to operations (including buses), if it would pay for improved headways and/or extended hours on MetroLink.

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PostJan 11, 2006#135

Metrolink and crime:



1. Robbers usually do not transport their goods on public transportation

2. Local police is still in effect in these areas where the metrolink could be expanded

3. Why would criminals travel out of the city just to rob suburban familes when there are plenty of wealthy areas in the city which are targets? Your surburban goods are not superior to our city goods, get off your high horse.

4. Crime exist in areas where people to do not have jobs; metrolink enables people to travel and get jobs, thus getting them off the streets.



Metrolink is great, I hate driving, expand it please!

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PostJan 11, 2006#136

The good news: Last I heard, Metro wants to open Cross County with 10-minute peak headways, and thus 5-minute peak headways on the main trunk of Forest Park to Emerson Park. Feel free to attend any of the upcoming open houses on Metro Redefined 2006 to learn more about the improved transit services planned for MetroLink and MetroBus.



The bad news: Metro can provide such improved service only temporarily unless more funding is found. The agency secured a CMAQ grant subsidizing Cross-County start-up. However, until the problem of Missouri lacking a dedicated transit funding source is resolved, Metro still faces an operational budget deficit in the very near future.



The dilemma: It's likely that a sales tax levy of additional quarter-cent will have to go before voters in the City and County soon after Cross County opens to sustain frequent trains and restructured bus service. Unfortunately, since the quarter-cent only would sustain post-Cross County level of operations, I'm thinking it won't exactly be popular. Perhaps, if a combined half-cent were sought, with another quarter-cent also for MetroLink expansion, then such levy would likely have better chances of passing, especially in the County, where the last Prop M was defeated.

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PostJan 11, 2006#137

After recently reading the FAQ about the Cross County, it got me thinking. While St. Louis was extreemly forunate to have tunnles already under downtown and avoid at grade service through downtown, did it hurt the future design of METRO. BY this I mean, had the orginal line required at at grade system running through downtown on city streets, would have people in the region been more understanding in the future of proposals for at grade systems elsewhere? Would Clayton have been willing to route the new extension at grade? Would a pervious and theroeticaly positive experince with an at grade system reduced or eliminated many public concerns over they Cross County expansion? Just a thought.

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PostJan 11, 2006#138

The financial reality is that we can't afford to continually expand a system entirely of exclusive right-of-way. I do agree that the century-plus old tunnels in downtown were a mixed blessing to MetroLink, allowing for that first line, but inhibiting folks' imagination about potential extensions.



However, anyone can see that using railroad right-of-way has placed MetroLink mostly in industrial and largely unutilized corridors, a challenge for TOD and having walkable proximity to key destinations. In contrast, in-street running can get you closer to major land use activities, yet at less cost than a subway or elevated line. For one, fixed rail attracts more riders when serving multiple, dense activity centers. However, higher density usually also means higher land values, limiting right-of-way acquisition. Thus, one strategy is to route transit within existing public streets with excess width for their capacity.

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PostJan 11, 2006#139

Why dont they just raise the cost of a one way trip by like 50 cents or a dollar instead of the tax levy? That way the people that do not use metro will not have to incur the cost of the tax.

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PostJan 11, 2006#140

Um, well, for the same reason you don't find many tolls on highways. And what tollways you do find aren't exactly surrounded by economic development.



User fees, whether tolls or fares, can partially offset operations and maintenance, but a pay-as-you-go system won't get you very far. Ultimately, something as widely used and supportive of our greater economy requires a pooling of resources, commonly found in taxes.



While fuel taxes go towards roads, whether sales taxes are the best match for transit is debatable. Personally, I think Missouri should be more like Illinois and have a portion of our fuel tax go towards transit. But since out-state has never liked that idea, St. Louis City and County are forced to tax themselves, in this case-- sales taxes, in order to fund transit.

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PostJan 11, 2006#141

What about the downtown casino, tax that b****, or, do casinos only fund education?



Well, that makes no sense! Consumption taxes have no correlation with transportation. It would be logical to use the gasoline tax for transportation funding since they are related.

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PostJan 11, 2006#142

the Gas tax is a consumption tax.

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PostJan 11, 2006#143

Right, it is a consumption tax, however, I was using that in a more specific term, meaning, taxing consumption of non-car/highway related goods. Why is the general consumption taxing of food being used for transport when, as you say, gas consumption is not being used, after all, gasoline is more related to transport than say celery at Schnucks.

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PostJan 12, 2006#144

Especially when the road-building interests ensured in our last election that all gasoline SALES TAX goes to capital road projects only. I like to compare that to the idea of using sales tax from books to pay only for new libraries. Sounds stupid, but that's what our "red state" decided to do in '04.

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PostJan 12, 2006#145

Probably a topic for another thread, but I wanted to point to this gas tax underfunding phenomenon as being mostly a US problem. Living most of my life in Canada and spending a lot of time in Europe, I know that gas taxes are a lot higher outside the US, and although there's abuses by governments, most, if not all road construction is funded exclusively by these revenues. Imagine a pefect equilibrium of supply and demand on our roads wherein people who use pay for their use. You'd see a lot more efficiency in both vehicle types and the way they are driven. Cheap gas in the US is not an entitlement. Gas tax is a consumption tax , I only wish it was cost neutral.

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PostJan 12, 2006#146

I still like the idea of toll roads like the thruways in New York. You get a prepaid pass and thats how you pay... Possibly instead of stopping, you could make a card that sticks to the car like a Mobile Speedpass and charges the toll to a the pre-paid card as you drive by. This way stops would be reduced and there could be more funds for our sh*tty highways and lower traffic roads.

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PostJan 12, 2006#147

bprop wrote:Especially when the road-building interests ensured in our last election that all gasoline SALES TAX goes to capital road projects only. I like to compare that to the idea of using sales tax from books to pay only for new libraries. Sounds stupid, but that's what our "red state" decided to do in '04.


Yeah I voted against Amendment 3. Now the state is stuck looking for money for other programs since half the state gas tax used to go to the general fund.



Building roads using political clout is a nice way to look good quickly. MoDOT's image has improved much since the passage of Amendment 3.



Make sure to follow Illinois in the coming year. The much maligned Gov. Blagojivich(sp) is proposing a $3 billion dollar road/capital improvement program to be funded by slot machines and keno machines all over the state. If the Republicans vote no, they are blocking the governor from helping the state add jobs. If they vote yes, then the governor was right all along. Ain't politics grand? :roll:

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PostJan 12, 2006#148

It is interesting that so many people are so high on the gas tax as a method for paying for roads, and perhaps reducing driving.

The reality is that most studies by economists show the gas consumers to be high price and income inelastic. More worrisome is that the last great national oil shock, those of the 1970's, did not change people?s consumption patterns. In fact, most studies show that as a result of the high gas prices, consumers became even more price inelastic to changes in gas prices.



To that end, the gas tax is excellent for razing revenue for anything and everything, but poor at changing consumption patterns. In addition to price and income inelasticity, one possible reason to reject the gas tax as a method for reducing driving is the poor logical link between gas taxes and driving.

How often, when you pull up to the gas pump, does one look over at the receipt and think "oh i paid X dollars in gas tax today because I consume so much gas." People hate the property tax and income taxes because you have to sit down and think about how much in taxes you pay. You realize every time the property tax bill comes "Oh i am being taxed X dollars because I own this property."



To that end, any tax system designed to reduce driving should be based on the miles driven and have a clear and obvious link to the taxes paid, not the current convoluted, economically inefficient, and ineffectual gas tax.

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PostJan 12, 2006#149

London is talking about putting a black box on cars and charge for every KM driven, thus reducing driving, and promoting the subway system. I am against this because of the black box, however, the theory is a good one IMHO.

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PostJan 12, 2006#150

Gasoline is price-inelastic, but so are cigarettes. The difference though is that virtually your entire electorate are drivers, but only a minority smokers. As such, tax increases on gas usually aren't that popular.



With the diversion of funding from general revenue, I think roads now have more than enough funding from Amendment 3. Instead of increasing gas taxes then, I think it would now be easier to just divert a small portion of the gas tax to transit. In fact, if the out-state interests would moan and complain, I'd even be willing to allow counties with transit to decide whether they wish to divert nominal funding from highways only within their county for their transit needs.



But of course, if you don't use transit, or don't even value it for the economic support it provides, you likely wouldn't even sacrifice a dime of your county's highway money for transit. However, notice I said county, and not metro area or region. As such, St. Louis City and County could each opt to divert some of their state highway funds, while St. Charles and Jefferson Counties would likely not. For my idea too, each county could opt for a different level of diversion upto a maximum limit. That way, St. Louis City could divert more than say Boone County (Columbia).

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