urbanSTL

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Nov 17, 2021

Imagine if we didn’t build any more roads because of criminal DUI drivers

sounds amazing. whatever works.

urban_dilettante wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2021

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Nov 17, 2021

Imagine if we didn’t build any more roads because of criminal DUI drivers

sounds amazing. whatever works.

We would never attempt anything that works.

Yes I know Brookfield owns it now. And they certainly mean business. They’ve tried to lure corporate HQ’s to the south parking lot. Even thoughts now of replacing the Galleria at some point and build residential. The status quo of the Galleria is unacceptable for these people.

sc4mayor wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2021

And Chesterfield has definitely crossed death’s threshold haha.  Unless you include pickle ball courts and Ed Golterman’s “history museum” as appropriate uses for a gigantic, empty mall.

Ed Golterman has a history museum? What the actual f***? Oh I gotta see this.

dweebe wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2021

whitherSTL wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2021

Yes I know Brookfield owns it now. And they certainly mean business. They’ve tried to lure corporate HQ’s to the south parking lot. Even thoughts now of replacing the Galleria at some point and build residential. The status quo of the Galleria is unacceptable for these people.

That's a new one: where'd you hear that?

There are residential components amongst many malls in the Midwest, too. Where did I hear that? I know this phrase is persona non grata on an anonymous forum like this but….I do know a few people. They are not happy with the current state of Galleria. The land is too valuable.

whitherSTL wrote:

dweebe wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2021

whitherSTL wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2021

Yes I know Brookfield owns it now. And they certainly mean business. They’ve tried to lure corporate HQ’s to the south parking lot. Even thoughts now of replacing the Galleria at some point and build residential. The status quo of the Galleria is unacceptable for these people.

That's a new one: where'd you hear that?

There are residential components amongst many malls in the Midwest, too. Where did I hear that? I know this phrase is persona non grata on an anonymous forum like this but….I do know a few people. They are not happy with the current state of Galleria. The land is too valuable.

Isn’t there a proposed car was at 1200 S Brentwood? They can’t even get new phases of the Promenade going across the street.


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When is the last time you have been to the Galleria? I was there a couple weeks ago and it there was almost zero vacancy. All these places are paying rent which makes a healthy mall. So sorry I don't believe that the owners are unhappy with the status quo without a source. Maybe they see the writing on the wall, it is the retail apocalypse after all, but right now their pocketbooks are fat with the rent payments from the most expensive retail real estate in the region.

Also I love how whenever something happens at the Galleria people in the comments automatically assume that the perpetrator took Metrolink. Seems like a stretch in a region with 95% car ownership and when the mall isn't even that well connected to the station in the first place.

Changes are coming. We shall revisit.

Though keep in mind that zero vacancy now doesn't mean that some tenants have already told them they don't intent on extending their lease long term (total speculation on my part, but if a Dillards or Nordstrom decided to leave, that would be a huge hit for them).  Or they may have had to heavily discount lease rates to keep the mall filled.  

That said, if Brookfield is open to tearing down the mall and replacing it with a residential district, allowing some tenants to move over to the Promenade Phase II and maybe even some first floor retail in a new district that replaces the Galleria, win win.

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2021

When is the last time you have been to the Galleria? I was there a couple weeks ago and it there was almost zero vacancy. All these places are paying rent which makes a healthy mall. So sorry I don't believe that the owners are unhappy with the status quo without a source. Maybe they see the writing on the wall, it is the retail apocalypse after all, but right now their pocketbooks are fat with the rent payments from the most expensive retail real estate in the region.

Also I love how whenever something happens at the Galleria people in the comments automatically assume that the perpetrator took Metrolink. Seems like a stretch in a region with 95% car ownership and when the mall isn't even that well connected to the station in the first place.

I was there last Friday:
-Restoration Hardware: empty
-Disney: empty
-Starbucks: empty
-Weber Grill and the other exterior restaurant on the north end: empty
-Five Guys and the other exterior stores on the east side: empty
-Microsoft store: empty

My guess is the mall is probably 85-90% leased. I wouldn't call that "almost zero"

whitherSTL wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2021

Yes I know Brookfield owns it now. And they certainly mean business. They’ve tried to lure corporate HQ’s to the south parking lot. Even thoughts now of replacing the Galleria at some point and build residential. The status quo of the Galleria is unacceptable for these people.

Sounds like you're saying popular perception of Metrolink is driving positive development changes at the Galleria.

Speaking of the Richmond Heights Station, here's a totally outlandish idea: Build two walkways (750 feet total) to connect it to its surrounding neighborhoods, without having to cross the tracks or add a platform entrance:  

Sometimes the low-hanging fruit to improve the existing infrastructure is more frustrating than slow system expansion. Spending 100s of millions on tunnels and bridges and then not building sidewalks to access stations is senseless. 

^It's very frustrating. And Metro has almost no interest in doing so. Like how they closed one of the entrances to the Delmar Loop station, as if that has made the local news freakout about Metrolink safety go away. Only made it harder for riders as far as I'm concerned. 

The more I think about it, the more positives bus rapid transit has over MetroLink expansion.

In addition to the obvious more bang for the buck, BRT provides far better neighborhood connectivity.

The blue line beyond Clayton is mostly useless. Having spent some time in Dallas lately, that's seemingly all their system is, train lines that connect little and that are ridden by downtown event-goers and poor people. So many new US light rail lines are like that, few attractions within walking distance of the vast majority of stations. If we're tied to rail-only we absolutely have to prioritize areas around stops with connectivity and density. No parking lots, car dealers, bad sidewalks, blocked walking paths, cul-de-sacs, etc.

Another big plus for BRT: maintenance. There's almost nothing to maintain on BRT other than the buses themselves?

Meanwhile, it seems like MetroLink is doing the no Blue Line after 8pm east of Forest Park for eternity for maintenance.

I thought maintenance was considered a downside of BRT, due to the faster depreciation of buses vs trams/trains.

Aside from that I agree.

^Yes it does actually cost less to maintain trains than buses in terms of the rolling stock (though maybe electric buses will improve on this). The benefit of buses is of course that they can easily take an alternate route in case of a closed road which trains can't. 

dweebe wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2021

Laife Fulk wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2021

Though keep in mind that zero vacancy now doesn't mean that some tenants have already told them they don't intent on extending their lease long term (total speculation on my part, but if a Dillards or Nordstrom decided to leave, that would be a huge hit for them).  Or they may have had to heavily discount lease rates to keep the mall filled.  

That said, if Brookfield is open to tearing down the mall and replacing it with a residential district, allowing some tenants to move over to the Promenade Phase II and maybe even some first floor retail in a new district that replaces the Galleria, win win.

The problem is the school district. If that land was Clayton schools the mall would already be toast and the Boulivard Second Phase would be done. MRH is sooooo uncool.

Homes which pre-existed the Galleria were in the Clayton school district.  Why would it be different now?

PeterXCV wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2021

The benefit of buses is of course that they can easily take an alternate route in case of a closed road which trains can't. 

GM did a great job banging that drum in the 40's and 50's. 

PeterXCV wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2021

^Yes it does actually cost less to maintain trains than buses in terms of the rolling stock (though maybe electric buses will improve on this). The benefit of buses is of course that they can easily take an alternate route in case of a closed road which trains can't. 

That’s not a benefit of buses. The train tracks are almost never closed and when they are it’s a segment for short period of time and passengers can be shuttled between stops. The benefit of buses is that they aren’t a fixed route and can follow where people go

Benefits of Bus:

Lower upfront cost and quicker to make a line.
Lower operating cost (unless you have high frequency)
Dynamic, can change routes quickly

Cons:

O&M is more expensive then rail if you have a lot of bus frequencies.
Usually not a dedicated alignment
Does not get the excitement (from voters or riders) that rail tends to.
Does not spur development the way rail tends to

dweebe wrote:

Laife Fulk wrote: ↑

Nov 18, 2021

Though keep in mind that zero vacancy now doesn't mean that some tenants have already told them they don't intent on extending their lease long term (total speculation on my part, but if a Dillards or Nordstrom decided to leave, that would be a huge hit for them).  Or they may have had to heavily discount lease rates to keep the mall filled.  

That said, if Brookfield is open to tearing down the mall and replacing it with a residential district, allowing some tenants to move over to the Promenade Phase II and maybe even some first floor retail in a new district that replaces the Galleria, win win.

The problem is the school district. If that land was Clayton schools the mall would already be toast and the Boulivard Second Phase would be done. MRH is sooooo uncool.

4 School districts in Richmond Heights. The Galleria is part Clayton, part Ladue.

Didn't really plan on getting into the weeds on bus vs. trains. I do overall prefer rail but I think BRT along major corridors could be more useful than light rail in cases like eee123 is describing, too many US light rail systems were just built along freight ROWs and highways. 

I think for STL to take advantage of the infrastructure $$ we should probably go with the N-S metrolink line, it's the furthest along, has the highest ridership potential, etc. Unfortunately despite their promise to do so after Prop A passed, neither Metro nor E-W Gateway studied BRT lines. 

In terms of creating a good transit system from the perspective of a guy trying to life work without a car here, I'd prioritize:
1) Providing plentiful, frequent bus service  (reliability becomes less of an issue when they come often)
2) Provide frequent Metrolink service. Sucks to travel on the blue or red lines in the evening rn. 
3) Improve pedestrian connections around existing Metrolink stops like Wabash was talking about. Most stations could use more entrances and paths to provide better connectivity to surrounding neighborhoods

And then expanded Metrolink & BRT. Obviously since those things take a while to come to fruition work should be started now, but if they were to build N-S Metrolink and the bus system was just as bad I can guarantee you ridership numbers will disappoint. Some benefits of BRT like all-door boarding could also be implemented right now to improve speed.