urbanSTL

Sorry, can't source this, but I was under the impression that Salci really overstated the importance of that case. Why $15M sticks out in my mind, I'm not sure, but I think it's in that magnitude.



Now, imagine if Metro/Bi-State loses...



re: crowds, I took the 6:07 train from Shrewsbury. There were maybe 30 or so people on the train there, and it was pretty full (but no standees and still a number of open single seats) by the time we got to Clayton, and slightly less than half full through downtown.



A suprising number of riders boarded at Brentwood/I-64. That might be a very cost-effective transfer for those going west-to-east into downtown. Also, the Chesterfield express bus lets off at that station. It might turn into quite a hub.

Metro would still need more funding even metro was able to recover part of the overruns. Metro 28 million defict next year is not just because of cross county. 8 million of the defict is caused by bond repayment. Metro would still have 20 milliondeficit next year even if they recover part of the overruns because the tax the prop m tax can't used for operating expenses. They might be use any money recoup for other capital improvents. We need to working to finding a way to maintain exitsitng service or else there would a 25 percent reduction in transit services in july 2007 without more funding which would be devasting to the system. The majorty of transit cuts would from the bus system which is 75 percent of the operating budgets. Metrolink would have reduced headways and all special trains for sporting events would be elimnated entirly. 11 million of the defict is metro fund employess pensions in advance on a annual basis, 6 million due to inflation since sales tax renvue lower than anticpated for the past few years

bprop wrote:
re: crowds, I took the 6:07 train from Shrewsbury. There were maybe 30 or so people on the train there, and it was pretty full (but no standees and still a number of open single seats) by the time we got to Clayton, and slightly less than half full through downtown.



A suprising number of riders boarded at Brentwood/I-64. That might be a very cost-effective transfer for those going west-to-east into downtown. Also, the Chesterfield express bus lets off at that station. It might turn into quite a hub.

That's probably the reason that Metro is building that garage behind Best Buy/Sports Authroity. Anyone know when it's slated to be done?



(If it's a Metro project, probably June of 2008. Anyone else: later this year.)

Actually that garage is being built by the developers of the Best Buy and the future office/condos that will be built. I think it's Meridian. Metro is going to lease around 1000 spots during the week. More spots will be available during the weekend and weeknights.

Metro would only be able to recover 8 million unless there was fraud involved.

Metro is goign to have to get its current operation in the black before it even considers a new line (unfortunately). If only this city woudl allot a scrap of the tex revenue it currently throws at the road/highway system ... the metro would have no budget problems. People always gripe about the "expense" of the rail system. You never hear anyone gripe about the "expense" of the highway system. Would they were judged by the same standard.

Remember... the city has done its part to pass the tax Metro needs... it is the county that has not passed it or has it on hold. Maybe busdad can fill us in. Don't also forget that Metro is poorly POORLY funded through Missouri and is a "public service". Even with the rate increase at 2.00 one way - the rail/bus service is cheaper and better than most cities public transit.

JMedwick wrote:I will ask this question again.



What does winning this case mean for Metro? Could they recoup part or all of the cost overruns? If Metro did recoup part of this money, what impact would that have on the need for future funding?

I think that the real importance in Metro winning the lawsuit will be in re-establishing the publics support and confidence in Metro. If they can prove in court that the cross county collaborative was negligent in their handling of the construction and that Metro was competent once they took over the construction it will greatly help them when they have to go to polls to ask for more funding.

matguy70 wrote:Remember... the city has done its part to pass the tax Metro needs... it is the county that has not passed it or has it on hold. Maybe busdad can fill us in. Don't also forget that Metro is poorly POORLY funded through Missouri and is a "public service". Even with the rate increase at 2.00 one way - the rail/bus service is cheaper and better than most cities public transit.

I heard the head of Metro on the radio the other day. He was asked if they should apologize for the overrun. He said he didn't think he personally should apologized since the overrun happened before he took over.



He also made it clear that he is required by law to not operate at a deficit. And the question wasn't whether the county wanted to underfund or punish Metro for overruns with no votes. The question is how much of the system he eliminates to get the system size in line with the money's allocated by the public. The clear implication is that if the County does not vote for the tax increase, there will be a significant cut in service - probably in the County.

There is an article on stltoday.com and the Post-Dispatch today about the opening of the new extension. I would post it but as usual the stltoday.com website is running super slow (if at all).



The article did mention the walk from the Richmond Heights station to the Galleria being tough. Specifically the crossing of Brentwood being difficult.



If I were the Galleria owners I would invest in a shuttle a bus or two to run between the mall and the Richmong Heights station. I think it would pay off as shoppers and employees would be pretty heavy users.



Same with the Maplewood Commons (Wal Mart/Sams/Lowes), Brentwood Crossing (Target, BB&B, PetSmart, Trader Joes) and Brentwood Plaza (Circuit City, Borders, REI). I think they would all be served by a shuttle bus loop than would run between their plazas and the new Metrolink stops.

I have a question for all you mass transit experts out there: Why not run lines underneath a major street? You always heer about the problem of acquiring land for the route ... seems to be the largest part of the expense. why not just dig up grand .. or tucker etc ... and build a tnnel underneath them? You already own the right of way. Those streets could be closed for a few years without THAT much disruption. and then we would have a proper system ... with an underground line along grand

(not presenting myself as an expert)



The answer is cost. Digging is expensive. Millions were added when just about 1 mile of the most recent addition was placed underground. Imagine the electrical/sewage/fiber optics?/etc that criss-cross underneath any street in town.



I think that this is why streetcars or at-grade or even elevated tracks make the most sense for South Jefferson, Broadway, Natural Bridge etc.

Why not run lines underneath a major street?

Case in point, the mile-long tunnel between Forsyth and Big Bend stations under Forest Park Parkway (a major street) cost $96 million alone, adding to Cross County's high price tag, which ended up more than 4 times as expensive per mile than previous MetroLink projects.

You already own the right of way. Those streets could be closed for a few years without THAT much disruption.

Although the City lacks any more existing tunnels or abandonned railroad rights-of-way in desirable locations for a new north-south line, the City does have many wide streets with excess capacity, like Natural Bridge, North Florissant, 14th, Chouteau, and Jefferson. Fortunately, there is room on these wide, underutilized streets for both a dedicated at-grade median for trains and existing traffic in separate lanes.

southslider wrote:Fortunately, there is room on these wide, underutilized streets for both a dedicated at-grade median for trains and existing traffic in separate lanes.

I realize this is where it is probably going but YUCK! (As I have said before) I can't stand the thought of lowering the beautiful Metro Line to the level of at grade median dweller. (Again as I have said before) I would much rather see NO expansion in the city then to do it wrong. $96 million for a mile long tunnel is a lot... but at least it was done right, and in 10 years 99% of people will forget the pricetag and say "wow I am glad it was done right"

The long term "they did it right" is worth that and our region and regional transit system deserves nothing less.

tbspqr wrote:and in 10 years 99% of people will forget the pricetag and say "wow I am glad it was done right"

The long term "they did it right" is worth that and our region and regional transit system deserves nothing less.

This has always been my feeling on the issue as well. Bury it and do it right. It will encourage development and provide a true alternative to the auto.

steve wrote:

tbspqr wrote:

southslider wrote: and in 10 years 99% of people will forget the pricetag and say "wow I am glad it was done right"

The long term "they did it right" is worth that and our region and regional transit system deserves nothing less.

This has always been my feeling on the issue as well. Bury it and do it right. It will encourage development and provide a true alternative to the auto.

And besides, subways are cool.

Do it right = underground.

Metrolink is LIGHT RAIL, NOT A TROLLEY.

nobody seems to question big price tags when they're connected to a highway project

markofucity wrote:nobody seems to question big price tags when they're connected to a highway project

Truer words have not been spoken in this discussion.

Ok I know that digging is expensive ... and at grade causes traffic and speed problems. .... why not an elevated line? Aside from being ugly, I don't have any problem with it. I would put up with ugly for a functional transit system ..... works in chicago

Rode the system when I got beck to the city yesterday. WOW... I was at awe. The new subways are beautiful and the stations are so impressive! I felt like I was in the DC Metro or something. Very nice and crowded to boot! The most impressive thing is HOW FAST it is (another reason elevated and subways are beautiful)... I was able to get from Forest Park to Shrewsbury/I-44 in no time. Considering that route is so unbelievably exhausting to navigate with a car and traffic is miserable. I like the new Forest Park station too.

I would like to see Metro incorporate the LED Digi signs and automated station announcements throughout the original Lambert to 5th and Missouri Line - the St. Clair Line already has these too. At least get these automated LED boards and announcements on the "Park to Park" transfer stations where riders must watch for the correct trains / line transfers.

I would also like to see Metro incorporate the lighting art throughout the downtown subway stations too. It would be an easy install to do and a great enhancement there.

Does anyone know if this is in the works?

Do it right = underground.

Metrolink is LIGHT RAIL, NOT A TROLLEY.

Furthermore, Metro is the ONLY LRT system in North America to run completely on independent grade/right away. Our system runs entirely like "heavy" rail. The system was built early on in new LRT systems in this country and fortunately Metro built the original 18 mile line the way they did and fortunately we had the infrasturcture and downtown subway tunnels in existence to utitlize.

So now, St. Louisan's, in general, EXPECT or are use to independent rail. Selling Metro going down a street like a streetcar in St. Louis isn't going to be an easy task either. St. Louisans take rail and expect it to be fast... this will not be the case if Metro builds at grade on any of the new lines. If we cannot accomplish getting Metro elevated, right away, or in subways on future lines... I think that the idea of modern streetcars (like Toronto has) linking into existing Metro lines will be better and more accepted and cheaper to operate.

Again, it's all about trade-offs. With street-running LRT lines, like those built in any other major US city, in addition to lower cost, you have greater visibility of the trains, more stations, and more infill development at stations on the existing grid. With exclusive-running LRT, the greatest benefit is speed, but since you'd have fewer stations, many City neighborhoods would be overlooked or by-passed for the benefit of long-distance commuters, and development is often more insular, about park-n-ride pods outside the CBD. Just from a land use perspective, street-running is clearly better, since the City needs more scattered infill development respecting our current urban fabric and grid than large-site pod redevelopment.



But even from the perspective of travel benefits, I think the new Jefferson/55 alternative announced by CMT would be a good compromise. The segment south of Dutchtown is still exclusive-running along I-55 right-of-way enabling faster speeds for long-distance commuters, likely having stations only every mile. However, the segment north of Dutchtown into Downtown would have moderate speeds (reserved median, signal priority, reduced crossings) and more neighborhood-oriented stations every half-mile or less serving the Dutchtown, Cherokee, Benton Park, Fox Park, McKinley Heights and Lafayette Square areas.

matguy70 wrote:Rode the system when I got beck to the city yesterday. WOW... I was at awe. The new subways are beautiful and the stations are so impressive! I felt like I was in the DC Metro or something. Very nice and crowded to boot! The most impressive thing is HOW FAST it is (another reason elevated and subways are beautiful)... I was able to get from Forest Park to Shrewsbury/I-44 in no time. Considering that route is so unbelievably exhausting to navigate with a car and traffic is miserable. I like the new Forest Park station too.

I would like to see Metro incorporate the LED Digi signs and automated station announcements throughout the original Lambert to 5th and Missouri Line - the St. Clair Line already has these too. At least get these automated LED boards and announcements on the "Park to Park" transfer stations where riders must watch for the correct trains / line transfers.

I would also like to see Metro incorporate the lighting art throughout the downtown subway stations too. It would be an easy install to do and a great enhancement there.

Does anyone know if this is in the works?

I don't know about the LED signs (and they would be nice).



But I did overhear two Metro employees talking about some of the signage being on backorder. For example there is nothing in the Skinker station that says what stop you're at. Or at the CWE bus transfer station there are pieces of paper over the old signs since the bus routes have changed. Or some at Union Station the directional signs still say "Lambert Field >>>" and "<<< Shiloh/Scott".



Hopefully they'll also get off their asses and change the signs at "Civic Center" station since they still say "Kiel Center".