urbanSTL

Got to crawl before you walk...walk before you run. If these projects get pulled off successfully, it will solidify the mid-town/ downtown trade area in the eyes of the national retailers.

I agree with Alex, the areas west of Dowtown, for now, make more sense for these types of projects as they have better access to highways, more room to build, better parking, closer to SLU/Wash U (good for retailers), closer to hospitals (good for retailers), and in the middle of downtown and the CWE (good positioning). Probably not what some of you wanted to hear, but just my opinion.

I hear what you guys are saying, and believe it 100%. But I still think there will be a Walgreens or CVS downtown by 2020. Population growth is too steady and those two are so aggressively battling for market-share.

As an example: Cincinnati has two Walgreen's and two CVS's downtown. Two of them are directly across the street from each other. Cincy has a more dense and solid corporate presents downtown than St. Louis. But STL's downtown residential is growing much faster. I think we'll get there.

More standard consumer/shopping retail, Jos. A. Bank, Famous Footwear, etc... Certainly sounds less likely in the CBD after Shapiro's hints/comments.

shadrach wrote:DT doesn't have the density for a CityTarget.

Sure, not today. But who knows in 2015-2016. And whats the ideal density for a CityTarget? Remember, Target will tailor the store for the city. While Chicago's CityTarget is over 100k sf, a downtown St. Louis store will likely be 50-75k. If we're to add another 500-1000 residential units to the pipeline, then I believe that will be enough for Target to make a decision. A their decision doesn't solely rely on "density," but economic opportunity as well. I believe the proper term is "retail leakage".

Agree with Wabash and Alex...CVS/Walgreens and specialty retailers like a Jos A Bank should have a downtown store.

Came on here to post the thoughts I've had on this CityTarget talk, but it seems some are beginning to see the problems with it. Dare to dream though, right.

My main issue is the continued attention given to Chicago's downtown Target. The primary Loop/downtown area in which it was built has (I think) a daytime population more than double that of St. Louis as a whole. Interestingly, our full-City population shifts/increases due to commutes are similar to that of Chicago -- 142,328 (+4.9%) for them and 122,234 (+35.1%). Just goes to show how disappointingly low the live/work ratio in St. Louis is...

Basically what I'm saying is that the Downtown Chicago CityTarget was probably installed primarily for that massive daytime population. I think St. Louis' is somewhere in the low-to-mid 80s, comparatively.

If St. Louis gets a CityTarget, it won't be downtown -- I highly doubt the numbers add up for a customer base that is so commuter-centric. Instead, they'd do similar to what's at Hampton now (only, as we'd all prefer, built up to the street with buried/rear parking. You can look at the Broadway/Sunnyside CityTarget in Chicago for a good example of that (and an Aldi's!) or follow the new construction at Division/Larrabee for another -- though the latter dev, from my man on the street view, looks to be massive -- or maybe it just looks that way because it's the first project started in the cleared Cabrini Green redevelopment site.

Just my 1/50 of a dollar, from my currently-Chicago-based perspective.

Kevin B wrote:Basically what I'm saying is that the Downtown Chicago CityTarget was probably installed primarily for that massive daytime population. I think St. Louis' is somewhere in the low-to-mid 80s, comparatively.

If St. Louis gets a CityTarget, it won't be downtown -- I highly doubt the numbers add up for a customer base that is so commuter-centric.

This prediction sounds as if its based on todays downtown figures. What if Google opens an office downtown and adds 500 new employees over the next 3 yrs? What if JPMorgan relocates its back end office here from NY with 500 employees by 2017? A lot can happen in the next 3-4 yrs that can a factor in CityTarget opening in downtown St. Louis. Don't be so quick to dismiss it.

stlien wrote:

Kevin B wrote:Basically what I'm saying is that the Downtown Chicago CityTarget was probably installed primarily for that massive daytime population. I think St. Louis' is somewhere in the low-to-mid 80s, comparatively.

If St. Louis gets a CityTarget, it won't be downtown -- I highly doubt the numbers add up for a customer base that is so commuter-centric.

This prediction sounds as if its based on todays downtown figures. What if Google opens an office downtown and adds 500 new employees over the next 3 yrs? What if JPMorgan relocates its back end office here from NY with 500 employees by 2017? A lot can happen in the next 3-4 yrs that can a factor in CityTarget opening in downtown St. Louis. Don't be so quick to dismiss it.

Oh I agree.

stlien wrote:

Kevin B wrote:Basically what I'm saying is that the Downtown Chicago CityTarget was probably installed primarily for that massive daytime population. I think St. Louis' is somewhere in the low-to-mid 80s, comparatively.

If St. Louis gets a CityTarget, it won't be downtown -- I highly doubt the numbers add up for a customer base that is so commuter-centric.

This prediction sounds as if its based on todays downtown figures. What if Google opens an office downtown and adds 500 new employees over the next 3 yrs? What if JPMorgan relocates its back end office here from NY with 500 employees by 2017? A lot can happen in the next 3-4 yrs that can a factor in CityTarget opening in downtown St. Louis. Don't be so quick to dismiss it.

How many employees are in downtown Chicago? Thousands upon thousands more than St. Louis. Google's mythical 500 employees won't put a dent in that. There would have to be a structural shift. Build a couple Sears towers here, fill them up, and that might make a dent. For reals...

stlien wrote:

Kevin B wrote:Basically what I'm saying is that the Downtown Chicago CityTarget was probably installed primarily for that massive daytime population. I think St. Louis' is somewhere in the low-to-mid 80s, comparatively.

If St. Louis gets a CityTarget, it won't be downtown -- I highly doubt the numbers add up for a customer base that is so commuter-centric.

This prediction sounds as if its based on todays downtown figures. What if Google opens an office downtown and adds 500 new employees over the next 3 yrs? What if JPMorgan relocates its back end office here from NY with 500 employees by 2017? A lot can happen in the next 3-4 yrs that can a factor in CityTarget opening in downtown St. Louis. Don't be so quick to dismiss it.

Exactly. Density is crucial, yes, but so is economic opportunity. St. Louis may not have the density of Chicago, or even Portland or Seattle, where other CityTarget locations can be found. And I think everyone has covered downtown's limitations completely in the last few posts. But there is most certainly economic opportunity downtown. And what about retail leakage? As downtown's population continues to grow, the retail dollars will continue to flow out of it, especially toward Richmond Heights and Brentwood, due to the dearth of retail in downtown. But even if other nearby locations might be more ideal for Target or other national retailers, I'm not ready to give up on the idea of national retailers moving into downtown.

roger wyoming II wrote:hey, at least Cicis Pizza is looking at downtown!
http://www.stltoday.com/business/column ... e65c1.html

There's much better pizza downtown, but something is better than nothing right? I just like the quote "We ... believe the specific territories we’ve identified for development are ripe for sustained success.” I hope other businesses are thinking about downtown the same way.

ealfotd wrote:

roger wyoming II wrote:hey, at least Cicis Pizza is looking at downtown!
http://www.stltoday.com/business/column ... e65c1.html

There's much better pizza downtown, but something is better than nothing right?

There's better pizza from Totino's and Lunchables. But I agree, something is better than nothing, and it's nice to see a chain (that does have its fans, even if I'm not one of them) taking a closer look at downtown.

Call me crazy, but I actually like Cici's. I went there all the time in undergrad. It was great (for what it is).

roger wyoming II wrote:^ I think everyone has said its good they are looking here and would be welcome.

Definitely. I'd be happy to see them, they'd be most welcome, and my kids would probably drag me there sooner or later.

I don't care for Cici's, but I'm glad they're looking at downtown locations. An inexpensive pizza option would be great.

Shadrach - If you're referring to my comment, all I said is there's better pizza downtown and that some development was better than nothing. I was actually, specifically referring to Maurizio's, which is my go to downtown pizza place. Joanie's also delivers downtown as well, and I personally will continue to frequent these establishments even after Cici's is open. (Not that I don't like Pi, it's just a little fancier than I generally go for when I'm in a pizza mood.) If my comment was interpreted as implying that I don't think Cici's should open in downtown, I apologize, because that was definitely not the intent.

I think Cici's would do well downtown. It's appealing to a variety of different demographic groups.

(And for what it is, I don't think their pizza is all that bad.)