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PostMay 23, 2013#826

Although there always is the issue of how lines are drawn, it appears that downtown Houston's daytime population is significantly larger than ours:

http://downtownhouston.org/retail/demographics-reports/

(Houston has 150,000 workers downtown; our entire daytime population downtown is shy of 100,000.)

I also see from this link that there is a retail specialist on staff as part of the downtown group... do we have something similar at DP?

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PostMay 23, 2013#827

^ But do they have an Arch? Didn't think so! :/

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PostMay 23, 2013#828

chesterfieldkid03 wrote:Just an FYI... the Macy's store in downtown Houston did not close because it was under performing, it closed because they lost their lease. The owner of the building Macy's was in plans on tearing it down to build a new office tower. Macy's is actually looking at other options to locate a new store in downtown Houston.

http://blog.chron.com/primeproperty/201 ... -to-close/
I was aware of that, however, didn't Macy's know when the lease was going to end in downtown Houston - just as they did in St. Louis and other places? The notion that Macy's intends to find another location in downtown Houston is interesting. Couldn't they have built or at least planned a new store in downtown Houston PRIOR to the end of the lease if they intended to stay? They likely knew the lease was not going to be renewed a long time ago. I don't trust them. Look at how they handled St. Louis.

Plus, I know a person who works in the Macy's corporate office in St. Louis. He HATES Macy's and always complains about Macy's business practices. In his own words "Macy's is cut-throat and dysfunctional".

Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but at the end of the day, I think Macy's is going to say...."Sorry Houston, but we were unable to find a suitable location downtown."

PostMay 23, 2013#829

kbshapiro wrote:I don't know Houston very well, so hard for me to comment. I would just say its the 4th largest city in the US and 2nd most Fortune 500 companies in the US. So there's more money, growth, and demand there for large scale development. For you to say St. Louis has more residents, hotel rooms and tourism than Houston is unbelievable to me. Please provide the proof of this.

I think a Dollar store would do well downtown. Like you. I also think a CVS/ Walgreens would do good as well. For some reason, these types of retailers don't feel the same yet.
#1. The square mileage of Houston is RIDICULOUS. Harris County alone, which Houston is the county seat, is about 3.5 times the combined size of St. Louis City and County. There are MANY outlying business districts/nodes in the city.

#2. Although Houston has a lot F1000 based downtown, most of Houston's F1000 companies ARE NOT downtown. The vast majority are in outlying areas - The four energy corridors, Westchase, the Galleria/Uptown area, Greenspoint, The Woodlands and districts scattered throughout the region.

#3. Being the 4th largest city doesn't mean the downtown area is without shortcomings. Downtown Houston is building up and is farther along than St. Louis in some respects - and vice versa. St. Louis is unlikely to ever catch Houston's daytime workforce population unless there is a major shift in the corporate mindset in St. Louis. And with ongoing initiatives, Houston residential population could easily surpass St. Louis' in the future. The number of downtown hotel rooms is also nipping on St. Louis'.

Check out this video:

KTRK: Plan to increase downtown Houston's residential population underway
Wednesday, November 21, 2012

#4. Downtown Houston's residential population is in the neighborhood of 3,301.
-(Source, Houston Business Journal, November 26th, 2012)

-Downtown St. Louis has about 14,000 residents.

#5. Downtown Houston has 5,000 hotel rooms. http://downtownhouston.org/site_media/u ... Report.pdf
Downtown St. Louis 8,000 hotel rooms. (Source)

As I have stated before, everything in St. Louis isn't bad. There are a lot of things being done right in St. Louis, but that doesn't mean downtown St. Louis doesn't need some major tweaking and TLC still. It does. AND it has come a long way from where it was. The Macy's closure is just one more bump - not a sinkhole - in the road.
kbshapiro wrote:I think a Dollar store would do well downtown. Like you. I also think a CVS/ Walgreens would do good as well. For some reason, these types of retailers don't feel the same yet.
I am glad that we can agree on something again. :wink:

PostMay 23, 2013#830

So when will Mayor Francis Slay announce his Downtown St. Louis Retail task force? 11-days after Macy's closure in downtown Houston, Houston's mayor announced a new retail task force.

Updated: Jan 14, 2013, 9:36am CST
Downtown Houston task force assembles to enhance, add retail

In an effort to boost downtown retail development, Mayor Annise Parker announced on Jan. 3 the formal creation of a downtown retail task force in cooperation with the Houston Downtown Management District.

The first order of business for the task force will be to research all available options for a new downtown Macy’s, as well as additional department stores and major retailers.

On Thursday, Macy’s Inc. (NYSE: M) announced it would close its downtown Houston location this spring.

Since early this year, the Downtown District has been working closely with Macy’s, the property owner 1110 Main Partners LP and the Mayor’s Office to identify potential sites downtown for redevelopment or new construction, the Mayor’s office said in a statement.

The task force will report to Andrew Icken, chief development officer for the mayor, and will be chaired by Fred Griffin of Griffin Partners.

PostMay 23, 2013#831

Great optimistic editorial from St. Paul about its downtown Macy's closure. Familiar themes with a totally different outlook than some in St. Louis. But YOU are not alone St. Louis. In fact, you might be a bit better off than others.

Editorial: St. Paul can handle its Macy's challenge
Store closing is part of a trend in midsized American cities.
Updated: January 4, 2013 - 7:08 PM



Soon St. Paul will join the long list of midsized American cities without a major downtown department store. Macy's announcement this week that its St. Paul store will close in March marks the end of an era -- and the continued evolution of a new type of American downtown.

St. Paul wasn't alone this week. On Thursday, Cincinnati-based Macy's said it would also close stores in Pasadena, Calif.; Belmont, Mass.; Honolulu, and Houston, as well as a Bloomingdale's in Las Vegas. Those closings are part of a 30-year trend, with scores of large department stores shutting down as American habits have shifted to more discount, specialty and Internet shopping.

Macy's management chose to shutter the St. Paul store just days after a 10-year agreement with the city expired. In 2001, the city gave then-owner Target a $6.3 million forgivable loan to keep the store open until the end of 2012. That arrangement expired Jan. 1, so Macy's can now close the store without paying back those funds.

Though St. Paul Mayor Chris Coleman says he can't point to a dollar-for-dollar return on the investment, he said the decision turned out to be a good "bridge'' to help the city make other improvements. The pact kept the financially struggling store open with at least some activity in the center of downtown while the heart of the city became a more attractive place to live and be entertained.

According to state figures, about 72,500 worked in downtown St. Paul in 2012 (down slightly from the average of 75,100 over the last decade), but city officials say that more than 8,500 people now live downtown -- a 28 percent increase in 10 years.

As Coleman says, St. Paul is in a much stronger position to absorb the loss of Macy's today than it was a decade ago. The city's downtown has several positive factors working for it, including the continuing growth of downtown residential, improved transportation, more specialty stores and better entertainment options.

The mayor says that, together, those advances "weave the fabric'' for a more attractive, dynamic downtown environment.

Still, city leaders face the challenge not only of filling the Macy's spot, but also of developing several key riverside locations.

The city's massive downtown post office and mail distribution center is closing. The former West Publishing site, which had been used by Ramsey County, sits on a Mississippi River bluff waiting for a new use. Also downtown, recently renovated Union Depot is prepared for future traffic from trains and light-rail but has lots of empty space yet to fill.

Coleman calls those situations "opportunities.'' Yet some retail and real-estate experts say that with St. Paul's still-modest numbers of residents and business growth, those spots will be tough to fill.

It's unclear how the Macy's store and block will be used in the future. Possibilities include another retailer -- perhaps a Herberger's, Kohl's or Target -- or the site could be divided for some combination of smaller shops or street-level retail and office towers.

Meanwhile, downtown will be bolstered by the Central Corridor light-rail line and the new Saints ballpark in Lowertown -- key developments that will help St. Paul weather the loss of Macy's.

Read More

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PostMay 23, 2013#832

arch city wrote:
kbshapiro wrote:I don't know Houston very well, so hard for me to comment. I would just say its the 4th largest city in the US and 2nd most Fortune 500 companies in the US. So there's more money, growth, and demand there for large scale development. For you to say St. Louis has more residents, hotel rooms and tourism than Houston is unbelievable to me. Please provide the proof of this.

I think a Dollar store would do well downtown. Like you. I also think a CVS/ Walgreens would do good as well. For some reason, these types of retailers don't feel the same yet.
#1. The square mileage of Houston is RIDICULOUS. Harris County alone, which Houston is the county seat, is about 3.5 times the combined size of St. Louis City and County. There are MANY outlying business districts/nodes in the city.

#2. Although Houston has a lot F1000 based downtown, most of Houston's F1000 companies ARE NOT downtown. The vast majority are in outlying areas - The four energy corridors, Westchase, the Galleria/Uptown area, Greenspoint, The Woodlands and districts scattered throughout the region.

#3. Being the 4th largest city doesn't mean the downtown area is without shortcomings. Downtown Houston is building up and is farther along than St. Louis in some respects - and vice versa. St. Louis is unlikely to ever catch Houston's daytime workforce population unless there is a major shift in the corporate mindset in St. Louis. And with ongoing initiatives, Houston residential population could easily surpass St. Louis' in the future. The number of downtown hotel rooms is also nipping on St. Louis'.

Check out this video:

KTRK: Plan to increase downtown Houston's residential population underway
Wednesday, November 21, 2012

#4. Downtown Houston's residential population is in the neighborhood of 3,301.
-(Source, Houston Business Journal, November 26th, 2012)

-Downtown St. Louis has about 14,000 residents.

#5. Downtown Houston has 5,000 hotel rooms. http://downtownhouston.org/site_media/u ... Report.pdf
Downtown St. Louis 8,000 hotel rooms. (Source)

As I have stated before, everything in St. Louis isn't bad. There are a lot of things being done right in St. Louis, but that doesn't mean downtown St. Louis doesn't need some major tweaking and TLC still. It does. AND it has come a long way from where it was. The Macy's closure is just one more bump - not a sinkhole - in the road.
kbshapiro wrote:I think a Dollar store would do well downtown. Like you. I also think a CVS/ Walgreens would do good as well. For some reason, these types of retailers don't feel the same yet.
I am glad that we can agree on something again. :wink:
Good info. I'm shocked the 4th largest city in the US has only 3,301 people that lives in their downtown. That's insane. Plus, to have less hotels than St Louis is shocking as well. Interesting.

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PostMay 23, 2013#833

^ St Louis isn't as bad as you thought, huh?

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PostMay 23, 2013#834

kbshapiro wrote:Good info. I'm shocked the 4th largest city in the US has only 3,301 people that lives in their downtown. That's insane. Plus, to have less hotels than St Louis is shocking as well. Interesting.
Yeah. Of course if Houston expanded its "downtown" boundaries, which are already larger than downtown St. Louis', it would net more residents downtown.

Also, why is it shocking that downtown St. Louis has more hotel rooms than Houston? St. Louis is more of a tourist and convention destination. St. Louis' convention center also ranks ahead of Houston's. St. Louis also has just as many theater seats and ranking venues as Houston. And St. Louis has more light-rail miles.

In regards to the hotel number, Downtown St. Louis has more touristy sights near downtown than Houston. AB, Grants Farm, Cahokia Mounds, The Gateway Arch, Six Flags, Busch Stadium, Forest Park, Basilica St. Louis, Missouri Botanical Garden, Route 66, The Confluence, gambling, St. Louis/Missouri wine country, St. Louis Zoo etc. While going to these places may have become boring to some locals, many of these sites are nationally and internationally recognized and draw visitors from around the world.

As much as I love Houston because it is a great city, it has nothing for visitors except great entertainment districts, excellent shopping districts and great art museums for the most part. Houston no longer has an amusement park. Galveston Beach is 50 miles from downtown. Kemah Boardwalk and Galveston Bay are 35-40 miles from downtown.

Again, while St. Louis has its issues and needs more TLC and regional cooperation, it does have a lot of assets to be proud of.

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PostMay 23, 2013#835

^ Interesting about those numbers, but the source I listed to above, the downtown houston org, sez they have 19,000 residents downtown and 55,000 in a two-mile radius. Having worked in downtown Houston in the mid-90's, I remember it as being pretty bustling in the day and a ghost town at night. Really no places to live in downtown proper. It was also the first place I felt I had to get a car. With light rail there now, I suppose that has changed.

Anyway, back to retail, it seems like they have an active plan and with a larger daytime population, more potential at the moment.

PostMay 23, 2013#836

Oh my..... Houston downtown brochure also boasts of 100,000 parking spaces. Can we beat that? We cannot lose the parking war!

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PostMay 23, 2013#837

"Why is it shocking that downtown St. Louis has more hotel rooms than Houston?"

Not sure why I have to explain this but Houston is the 4th largest metro in the US. We are the 18th-19th. And we have more hotels. It's just surprising.

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PostMay 23, 2013#838

Deleted comment. This conversation is oddly personal. Maybe we keep it on-topic?

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PostMay 23, 2013#839

roger wyoming II wrote:^ Interesting about those numbers, but the source I listed to above, the downtown houston org, sez they have 19,000 residents downtown and 55,000 in a two-mile radius. Having worked in downtown Houston in the mid-90's, I remember it as being pretty bustling in the day and a ghost town at night. Really no places to live in downtown proper. It was also the first place I felt I had to get a car. With light rail there now, I suppose that has changed.
That 19,000 includes all of Midtown, 4th Ward, part of 1st and 2nd Wards.

If you look at this link (Page 28), and look specifically at the "downtown" heading numbers, the numbers basically match up with the Houston Downtown Management District/Houston Business Journal's November 2012 numbers.

Houston's traditional downtown boundaries are mostly encircled by the highways. Midtown, 4th Ward, part of 1st and 2nd Wards - these areas have not been traditionally characterized as downtown and the HBJ's numbers validates it.

Midtown and parts of bordering wards next to downtown have had explosive residential growth so it is quite natural that booster groups would want to include these areas in Houston's "downtown" numbers. St. Louis is no different, but St. Louis would still have more traditional boundary residents.

PostMay 23, 2013#840

kbshapiro wrote:Not sure why I have to explain this but Houston is the 4th largest metro in the US. We are the 18th-19th. And we have more hotels. It's just surprising.
No problem. Yeah, St. Louis has more hotels and hotel rooms downtown. Houston metro has double the number of hotel rooms. Only 7% of their hotel rooms are downtown. In St. Louis, downtown has about 25% of the region's hotel rooms.

By the way, when Houston adds that 1,000 room addition to its convention center hotel, they will be getting closer to St. Louis in downtown hotel room count.

Anyway......St. Louis needs more downtown residents, retail and workers and it's good to illustrate that St. Louis shares some of the same issues with other cities.

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PostMay 23, 2013#841

arch city wrote:
kbshapiro wrote:Not sure why I have to explain this but Houston is the 4th largest metro in the US. We are the 18th-19th. And we have more hotels. It's just surprising.
No problem. Yeah, St. Louis has more hotels and hotel rooms downtown. Houston metro has double the number of hotel rooms. Only 7% of their hotel rooms are downtown. In St. Louis, downtown has about 25% of the region's hotel rooms.

By the way, when Houston adds that 1,000 room addition to its convention center hotel, they will be getting closer to St. Louis in downtown hotel room count.

Anyway......St. Louis needs more downtown residents, retail and workers and it's good to illustrate that St. Louis shares some of the same issues with other cities.

This. Dead on.

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PostMay 24, 2013#842

Anyway......St. Louis needs more downtown residents, retail and workers...
I can think of a great building that can accommodate all of the above. :wink:


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PostMay 24, 2013#843


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PostMay 24, 2013#844

^ what point are you trying to make here?

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PostMay 24, 2013#845

I got a bit exhausted reading the last few pages or so but I just wanted to state that kbshapiro is on point. One can only listen to the blaming of Macy's for so long when it's the dilapidated market that's the problem. Why would Macy's invest large amounts of cash when forseeable demand didn't indicate it? Odds are the city subsidy just kept them in business a while longer.

Like kbshapiro said, the real problem is that we need more jobs and residents in the core to sustain larger retail like Macy's.

And what's up with the tangential comments on racism in this thread? Love you all, but sometimes the discussion can lose focus in surprising ways...
downtown2007 wrote:Here you go kbshapiro....

http://www.stltoday.com/business/column ... d8d6d.html
I don't quite buy what this analyst is selling. Although his point on signaling sounds about right, we've already got a pharmacy and grocery in Culinaria. There doesn't seem to be enough demand or need to duplicate (although Trader Joe's hits a slightly different niche, who cares?).

So we lost a solid department store in Macy's. This is the obvious gap we should consider filling in the intermediate term, therefore our seedling (signaling) stores must be largely correlated. Target is a lower tier yet respected department store brand. I can see a smaller footprint (City Target) working and it just makes sense if the numbers work out.

Get something like a Jos A Bank (JAB) in here stat as dress clothing is a gap in the CBD / Convention area and is likely correlated enough with dept stores for signaling purposes. Problem with JAB is it's men's only. I'd prefer a similar concept or concepts filling the needs for both men and women. Given that, what are the female versions of JAB? I can imagine they would work well side by side...

In any case, smaller success(es) that fill needed gaps would serve as a signal for City Target and serve downtown well.

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PostMay 25, 2013#846

I blame Macy's. They didn't give a damn.

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PostMay 25, 2013#847

innov8ion wrote:I got a bit exhausted reading the last few pages or so but I just wanted to state that kbshapiro is on point. One can only listen to the blaming of Macy's for so long when it's the dilapidated market that's the problem. Why would Macy's invest large amounts of cash when forseeable demand didn't indicate it? Odds are the city subsidy just kept them in business a while longer.
I got a bit exhausted after all that I wrote earlier in this thread, so I completely get it. :wink:

I'll agree to disagree with you on Macy's just a bit, even though I get your larger point about the market in general. I still think they are due at least some of the blame. Simply put, I don't believe they dealt with the property owner or the city in good faith, as they asked for and received public subsidies for downsizing and renovation. They clearly delivered on the former, but barely delivered on the latter. I'm reminded of the Cardinals owners, who promised us a village, gave us a parking lot, and received millions of tax dollars in the process. (At least they deliver on their promises across the street most of the time!) :wink:
I don't quite buy what this analyst is selling. Although his point on signaling sounds about right, we've already got a pharmacy and grocery in Culinaria. There doesn't seem to be enough demand or need to duplicate (although Trader Joe's hits a slightly different niche, who cares?).

So we lost a solid department store in Macy's. This is the obvious gap we should consider filling in the intermediate term, therefore our seedling (signaling) stores must be largely correlated. Target is a lower tier yet respected department store brand. I can see a smaller footprint (City Target) working and it just makes sense if the numbers work out.

Get something like a Jos A Bank (JAB) in here stat as dress clothing is a gap in the CBD / Convention area and is likely correlated enough with dept stores for signaling purposes. Problem with JAB is it's men's only. I'd prefer a similar concept or concepts filling the needs for both men and women. Given that, what are the female versions of JAB? I can imagine they would work well side by side...

In any case, smaller success(es) that fill needed gaps would serve as a signal for City Target and serve downtown well.
Agreed. I don't get the point of that P-D article either. I certainly wouldn't mind seeing CVS or Walgreens downtown, but Culinaria has a pharmacy and stocks many convenience items. I suppose CVS or Walgreens might offer a wider array of some convenience or health/beauty items, but with Culinaria apparently doing well, this doesn't strike me as the most urgent retail need after Macy's Downtown closes.

The primary focus should be obvious- to attract clothing retailers. I think CityTarget would be an outstanding fit for the first two levels of the Railway Exchange, just as it is for the first two floors of the former Carson's flagship on State Street in Chicago. (Yes, I realize that even State Street is in much better shape than our downtown, even though Michigan Avenue has been the primary retail destination in Chicago for many years. I just think the template, and the higher sales per square foot, just might work within the Railway Exchange...someday...and the sooner, the better.)

But that's a big step, and one that a retailer like Target may not be ready to take just yet, if ever. So a focus on smaller stores, like Jos. A. Bank, Ann Taylor, etc. may be a great start. I'm sure a lot of women would also be happy to see something along the lines of Ross, TJ Maxx, or Marshalls in the Railway Exchange even if the appeal and audience wouldn't be as broad as they would with CityTarget. In downtown Indianapolis, TJ Maxx has operated in the former Block's flagship for well over a decade. And, BTW, downtown Indy lost its Nordstrom not that long ago. I'm not sure how Carson's does in the old LS Ayres/Parisian space, but even Circle Centre has seen better days.

Bottom line: The loss of Macy's is a huge blow to downtown, but by no means is it insurmountable.

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PostMay 26, 2013#848

Here you go Downtown2007...

http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 6011a.html

Yes, Macy's is still partially to blame for having a store that they had zero intention of keeping open. The bottom line is we need to see more permanent and office population downtown before we can realistically talk about adding the sexy national retailers we all want to see downtown.

PostMay 26, 2013#849

Another thing that I haven't seen addressed is that the CORTEX TIF district could land some of the retailers that a lot of people would like to see downtown. TIFs are very instrumental when making deals with large national retailers because their deals are usually very hard to make financially without subsidy. Also, CORTEX is closer to the CWE/ BJC/ SLU, etc that some retailers may desire.

In order to compete with CORTEX or other public subsidized developments, developers looking to land some of these tenants downtown will need to get financial incentives and subsidy just to compete. Then, these downtown developers will have to compete with the other developments on site merit.

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PostMay 26, 2013#850

kbshapiro wrote:Here you go Downtown2007...

http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 6011a.html

Yes, Macy's is still partially to blame for having a store that they had zero intention of keeping open. The bottom line is we need to see more permanent and office population downtown before we can realistically talk about adding the sexy national retailers we all want to see downtown.
Yes of course DT needs more jobs but what area doesn't. The problem isn't the number of jobs, but the job density. WF and Nestlé, as the article mentions, are located on the perimeter. A higher concentration near Met Sq would have a huge impact.

However, even with the current 88k jobs and 14k residents, DT STL currently can support Walgreens and smaller retailers. And I even think its may have the capability to support a City Target currently. There is more demand than the metrics, stats, and real estate community thinks.

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