urbanSTL

Who knew that the downtown Macy's could inspire such passion in so many of us.

stlBob1 wrote:I hope this doesn't seem too trivial but I'd like to see the Christmas model train window display remain downtown StL. Somewhere downtown.

I'd hate for it to end up in someone's basement or on display in another city.

The set's scenery art wasn't too StL or even Missouri themed (except for that tiny Macy's billboard and some mid-century modern model houses). Maybe it was in ways I am missing. Does anyone know the set's history? How long has that particular display been used? etc. If it has historic significance, it needs to stay downtown. IMO

Based on a family story I kind of remember hearing as a kid, I consulted my mom on this question. Her answer is about a model train-set/tableau inside of Famous Barr, but not the one displayed in the window. Via email, from my mom:

Yep, my Grandpa Heine (Lloyd) had a train set-up that was displayed at the Downtown Famous Barr. It was displayed in the store, not the window. It was supposed to be a likeness of the town of Prairie du Rocher. A newspaper article also mentioned that my grandpa made every auto, house, tree, etc... by hand during down times while working his second job as a night watchman. I think I may have a copy of the newspaper article. I think my Uncle Bill has the original. I don’t know if it appeared in the Post Dispatch or the other STL newspaper at the time, the Globe Democrat. Why the interest???

So, I never remember seeing a train set inside the store as a kid, but others with older memories should be able to confirm this. I know that's not the train set you're talking about, but it's a nice story/companion to the window display. According to mom, she's got one of great-grandpa's hand-carved cars stored away for my brother and I.

My great-grandfather was from Prairie du Rocher (as am I) and moved back there later in life. The picture in the linked Wikipedia page is where his house was (it was sold/demolished around 1996). Don't ask me why the main picture for the Rocher Wikipedia page is a grain silo and a gas station. I'm tempted to create a log-in just to change it -- maybe to an idyllic bluffview or something.

Kevin B -- Thank you and your mom for the info.
I tried google but so many personal remembrances are on the web, it's going to be difficult to sort through them all. Even videos much better than mine are on YouTube.

Also, article today from the PD has a train photo http://bit.ly/16MAeEO

If the current display was the same set from the Famous-Barr days, that would be significant.

Somebody made this statement above...

"Spinnaker has done well so far to attract MX Movies"

FYI, the development owns the movie theatre, so they didn't "attract" anything. No different that BPV...every tenant announced so far is owned by the developer.

arch city wrote:Which businesses are you speaking of? Where are they? Also, I don't need to present evidence for having "thoughts" or hunches. And there's no doubt, nonetheless, that Macy's is (was) coveted as a downtown retail anchor by City Hall and downtown boosters at one time.

Take it easy. Of course Macy's is/was coveted. Can you imagine how moribund that part of downtown would be without it? Congratulations, you'll get that chance soon.

I like the downtowns of Cleveland and Kansas City. They don't "pop" like Philadelphia, Denver, Atlanta or The Loop in Chicago, but they are doing fine without Macy's. That was my point.

I've been to both and I've never come away with the feeling that either city was necessarily better or worse than St. Louis. YMMV.

Everybody wants incentives. This is why creative incentivizing needs to happen downtown. If a small business locates on a particular street - other than Washington Avenue - then more incentives could be offered - such as awnings, a signage package, an increased financial package etc. Maybe the city could creatively incentivize a downtown test store for a national retailer (or retailers) such as Old Navy or Express. Allow them to run a test like Lululemon did in the CWE, but with forgivable incentives and loans with sunsets. If the store works out then its a win-win for both.

Creative incentives are good. But I don't see a lot of creativity in City Hall. How many special taxing districts are there? And how high will sales taxes go before the incentives that the city currently uses start to backfire?

Macy's received tax credits to condense Macy's to three floors. Unfortunately, the city cannot always thwart these types of closings and relocations - no matter how much money is thrown at the business to stay. Sometimes the dynamics just don't work out for whatever reason. I personally don't see the city's effort to keep Macy's downtown as problematic, lackadaisical or reactive. The city tried. It didn't work.

Yes, it tried. It offered tax incentives. It offered evidence that downtown was turning around. Neither was enough, and while it may not have been problematic, lackadaisical, or reactive in your view, it wasn't exactly as proactive as it could have been. A truly proactive approach would have been to focus on the depressingly empty blocks around Macy's and to encourage retailers to locate within the city's traditional retail corridors like Olive Street and Sixth and Seventh streets. Instead, when new independent businesses opened up, they were scattered throughout downtown. And the blocks surrounding the store have looked depressing for years. It's more difficult to create a critical mass when you have to go so far to connect the dots.

Spinnaker has done well, however, they can't do it alone. There are other parts of downtown that need some love. THF Realty and other firms could be just as instrumental in a downtown retail revitalization.

True. Does THF build anything besides bland Walmart-anchored mega strip centers, though?

Sorry, but in my opinion, there are only two stages needed here. Shock/Denial and Acceptance. The rest is bullsh*t.

Lighten up, Francis. I was being a bit facetious then, just as I was about THF.

Regarding MX Movies, I believe Spinnaker attracted a partner, St. Louis Cinemas.

I live 6 blocks from Macy's and HATED going there. So dark and gloomy. Changing rooms in the men section was dangerous with all the needles on the ground. Just because there was history in that location, I forced myself to go there once a year.

I'm glad it closed as others have said...it was quite embarrassing.

City Target would be awesome. I would visit there 52x more than I did Macy's.

Also if a future retailer is now scared because a Macy's shut its doors down, that business it probably going to fail as well if it thinks they want to attract that same 1970s shopper.

kbshapiro wrote:My opinion as a retail real estate broker...

The loss of Macy's is really bad...they are the only national retailer downtown and they are closing due to poor traffic and sales. This will make it very hard to attract other national retail to the downtown CBD (hell, it was hard already).

For those of you spinning this as a global department store business issue, and not a result of poor microeconomic issues related to downtown St. Louis, you need to take the blinders off. It's this simple, if the store was making money, it wouldn't be closing. Look a Macy's financials and stock, they're doing just fine globally as a department store.

The best way to attract more national retail like Men's Warehouse, Jos A Bank, Ross Dress For Less, TJ Maxx, etc on everybody's wish list, you need to have a successful Macy's, not a Macy's that's closing in August (right before the holiday season - which really shows you this store is a dud). Retail is a herd mentality. One retailer does well, the rest will follow.

The most positive thing I can say about this is maybe some retailers will want to take on the sales that are lost by the Macy's closing and open some stores in downtown . And hopefully it's some of L3 Corporation's clients. We will see.

Have you been to the downtown store? Maybe if they sunk a little capital, was better managed, effectively marketed, and put a little more effort into the place it would have done a little better. There are sales to be made out there now that Macy's is leaving.

The real question is, will the announcement of saving Cupples 7 overshadow the losses of Macys and the bank branches? Or would a demo further depress downtown

I think we can all agree that (1) this wasn't the best Macy's by a long shot in appearance or merchandise and (2) Macy's could have done so much more to improve the store. But I don't think it was quite as bad as some here suggested. The dressing rooms, while they were clearly dated, were no better or worse than the ones I used at Macy's or Dillard's in most suburban locations. And I was never embarrassed by the store. I'm more embarrassed by the numerous yet half-empty parking garages and surface lots, the depressed and elevated sections of I-70 that our dimwit leaders refuse to eliminate, the construction of Asphalt Village, and the poor condition of the blocks surrounding Macy's. Oh, and that big, empty department store in the middle of that huge dead zone is going to be a bit embarrassing as well.

Also, I love how people sing the praises of Target as they sneer at Walmart. I can't get too worked up one way or another about either of them- they're just discount stores. Target might have slicker marketing and fewer repulsive customers, but some of their business practices aren't all that better than Walmart's in my opinion. CityTarget is a far better alternative to the main and/or second floors of the Railway Exchange being empty. But can it attract customers when Macy's obviously couldn't attract enough? And what makes anyone think the city can woo CityTarget- with or without incentives- when it couldn't get any retail tenants near Famous-Barr/Macy's for nearly a decade after St. Louis Centre failed and took Walgreens with it? I didn't count Culinaria because it was part of the effort to revive Old Post Office Square, and for some reason, the powers-that-be didn't seem too concerned about connecting the dots down to Macy's and up toward the Laurel, which was the traditional retail core before St. Louis Centre was built.

arch city wrote:Macy's Jamestown is no better than the downtown store.

No better? Haha. It's FAR worse. It's attached to a dead mall. And it is in one of the most depressing suburban areas I've ever seen outside of Metro Detroit. Alton Square is no better. I understand closing the downtown store is a business decision. What I don't understand is how keeping Jamestown (and even Alton Square, which is no better or busier) Macy's locations open instead of downtown is somehow a smart business decision.

And by the way, I'm not saying all these should be at BPV, but I could see a few of them at BPV.

Here's what I see at BPV in the near future:

- A cowboy-themed restaurant. Yee-hah!

- A Budweiser-themed restaurant.

- A Cardinals themed restaurant and HOF museum

- A HUGE parking lot.

- Yep, that's it.

Bottom line, to me it's still one step forward, two steps back for downtown retail without Macy's. I'm glad others are more sanguine, and I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see a flood of retailers on their way when they've held out for so long already despite billions of dollars of investment, thousands of new residents, and a relatively stable workforce (well, with the exception of departed May Company/Macy's jobs). It's going to take MUCH more than what's been done already to attract these retailers downtown. Are our city's leaders up for the challenge?

stlien wrote:The real question is, will the announcement of saving Cupples 7 overshadow the losses of Macys and the bank branches? Or would a demo further depress downtown

Is Cupples 7 going to be saved? I'm not really in the loop, but this would be the first I've heard of it.

And I'd be happy if that announcement overshadowed the news of Macy's closing.

^ No word yet other than a "mystery developer" is in talks with the city. See the ballpark lofts thread.

Arch - I was just saying that you need an anchor (whether its Macy's or somebody else) to do well before other retailers will follow. For example, yes, there could be a Men's Warehouses no where near a Macy's but I guaranty there's other successful anchor type national retailers nearby like Lindbergh/ New Halls Ferry that you mentioned previously.

kbshapiro wrote:Arch - I was just saying that you need an anchor (whether its Macy's or somebody else) to do well before other retailers will follow. For example, yes, there could be a Men's Warehouses no where near a Macy's but I guaranty there's other successful anchor type national retailers nearby like Lindbergh/ New Halls Ferry that you mentioned previously.

Then explain why some other downtowns have a mix of boutique and smaller national retailers but no anchor really exists. Denver has no large dept store, but does have retail such as Loft, Fashion Bug, etc. Same in other cities like Memphis, NO, Nashville, etc.

Like most other cases I think retail is a different animal in an urban core than in the suburban areas. Densities and the built form are totally different. Evaluating and comparing the 2 can sometimes be unfair.

downtown2007 wrote:Then explain why some other downtowns have a mix of boutique and smaller national retailers but no anchor really exists. Denver has no large dept store, but does have retail such as Loft, Fashion Bug, etc. Same in other cities like Memphis, NO, Nashville, etc.

Downtown Denver had Nike Town as an anchor (30k sf). Nike recently closed, but was soon replaced by a 20k sf H&M.

New Orleans has a Saks downtown. Same with Cincy. Also, NO, Memphis, or Nashville are much smaller cities. The fact that St. Louis is on an equal footing with cities half its size isn't really a good thing.

I think Shapiro has a good point. It helps encourage stores who are scouting locations and brokers marketing locations to have a big national retailer nearby who is going to draw in shoppers of a similar ilk.

When DESCO develops a Schnucks they don't just build the Schnucks but also 6-12 storefronts around it. It seems that this mini-mall approach is naturally occurring around Culinaria. Fifth-Third, Clarkson Eyecare, and Gumbo Shop have opened on the same block within the last year or two. With work started on the Roberts, and hopefully at least one of Arcade or Chemical soon, I could see retail gravitating around Culinaria. Along with being near Culinaria, being on and around Post Office Plaza probably offers more foot traffic and a higher profile than two blocks east around REB and the back (empty) side of MX.

As always, I wish Cordish had a vision that was greater than a contrived Beale Street chain bar Mecca in a sea of parking. Busch could be another good example of an "anchor tenant"providing neighbors with a high profile and lots of foot traffic. Too bad.

Downtown2007 - I really don't want to get into a message board argument with you. For some reason, you're always combative and argumentative, so I'm going to take the high road and just state the facts and my professional opinion. I do this for a living. Nothing else. Retail real estate brokerage.

Fashion Bug went bankrupt and is gone.

Denver is simply bigger, better, nicer, and has more visitors/tourists then St. Louis. You can't compare the two downtown CBDs. Almost twice the City population and its growing annually at a pretty good percentage. St. Louis is losing people.

Nashville - has ONE national retailer that I can think of (Urban Outfitters) which is probably there to serve Vanderbilt students.

Memphis - does have that Peabody Place mall with some a couple national retailers. Not sure if any are still there though. I've heard that the mall is a failure and most tenants are gone.

KC - has just Jos A Bank. They want to be in downtown St. Louis but just haven't found the right space.

Indy has the interior mall that is also a problem property.


At some point, you guys (like myself) that want downtown St. Louis to be a successful retail trade area need to stop blaming retailers, brokers, that Macy's closed because of Macy's global issues or whatever crap excuse and look at that facts that there's simply not just enough permanent population, daytime population that sticks around after 5pm, and more visitors/ tourists to support national retail in downtown St. Louis is the absolute and only real reason that these retailers aren't opening stores downtown. The focus needs to be on fixing this. More residents. More workforce. More visitors. Then retailers will come. Until this happens, just expect more bars, restaurants, and service retail.

I've said this 10 times...if these retailers feel they'll make money in Downtown St. Louis, then they'd open a store. They'd find the space or have a developer build them one like everywhere else in the US.

One last thing, yes I agree with everyone that the Macy's was horrible downtown and it was obvious they weren't committed for the long haul. All I was saying is that it won't help in attracting other national retail

So downtown's retail woes are caused by a racist redlining conspiracy by real estate brokers? They're keeping national chains from opening up downtown so that black people don't shop there? Seriously? What decade is this?

I thought this was nextSTL and not the stltoday.com comments section? This just got way out of hand. arch city, it looks like you're an administrator. Can you please remove your own post for an overabundance of incendiary BS?