urbanSTL

arch city wrote:The Macy's announcement just makes the dearth of retail downtown all the more scarce. My hope however, is that other smaller retailers would seek to fill the void now.

As a start, downtown, in my opinion, needs "off-price" and discount retailers such as Ross, TJ Maxx, Marshall's and K&G, dollar discounters such as Family Dollar, Dollar General, Dollar Tree, etc. and women's stores such as Dress Barn, Rainbow, Fashion Bug, Cititrends, Payless Shoe Source, Shoe Carnival. Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, etc. - forget about it. It is going to be a long time before downtown sees high-end retail so the best thing for it to pursue are off-price and discounters for now.

Downtown St. Louis ISN'T too good for discounters and dollar stores.

I agree completely. We used to have stores like that downtown - you can even see the old Payless logo on the window of the Quizno's on Olive.

Last, another issue for me is that I do not understand why Macy's hasn't filled up the Railway Exchange with more of its local call center and corporate employees. Why in the hell are they in Earth City anyway?

They have a warehouse out there - I don't know if that has anything to do with it.

Who came up with the name "Earth City?" What a horrible name for an awful place to work.

threeonefour wrote:

stlgasm wrote:And here's another whammy...

People's Bank and PNC Bank announced today that they are closing their downtown locations: http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 0bb20.html

It does seem like downtown is merely treading water lately. There has been a lot of residential growth, and that's wonderful, but we still almost no new infill construction (save for the empty Roberts Tower) to replace existing parking lots and garages. I went to lunch downtown today, it's depressingly quiet in much of the CBD even during a business day. We probably have one of the least congested downtowns of any major city in the country.

That said, it's still the most amazing city in the world and I love it with all my heart.

I noticed the news about the bank closings as well. And, as usual, I agree completely with your take on things.

I love it here, too, but I get the same impression about downtown lately. My long-term outlook is still optimistic, but my soul is feeling a bit crushed right now.

I disagree with the significance of the bank closings. How necessary are they in today's day and age? My bank has only two or three physical branches in the whole world and I've never used one. Times are changing...

jcity wrote:This building can now be repositioned as something cooler, and better for downtown.

Call me old-fashioned, but I cannot think of anything "cooler and better" for downtown than a traditional department store with over 100 years of history. Even the mayor said the loss wasn't "tragic". Bull$#!t. A century of retail tradition will soon be gone forever, and with it, one of downtown St. Louis' competitive advantages over most other American downtowns (at least for the reason outlined by stlgasm above, if for no other reason at all). I realize the model probably isn't sustainable outside of Herald Square in Manhattan or Union Square in San Francisco, both of which have far more activity than most downtowns, not just downtown St. Louis. But I also realize that the mindset of many hipsters and $30k millionaires is that development isn't "cooler or better" unless it meets their exacting standards. For example, I'm pretty sure there are more than a few people on this forum that wouldn't be content with CVS, Ross, or TJ Maxx, even though they're the most likely national tenants to fill a space like that. Some might even sneer at CityTarget, I don't know. Like I said, I get that Macy's couldn't go on forever with the present state of traditional department stores or downtown in general, but I don't think the city or Macy's took full advantage of the opportunities they had, either. It was a half-arsed effort by both entities in my opinion.

debaliviere wrote:Who came up with the name "Earth City?" What a horrible name for an awful place to work.

Good question. My first job when I moved to St. Louis was in Earth City. Keep in mind that this was around the time that Office Space was in theaters. I'd much rather work at Initech than anywhere in Earth City ever again. What a mind-numbing, soul-crushing place that is...it is just awful in every sense.

It's hard not to be sad about this. I think of/worry about the restaurants, the sausage guy at the corner of Olive & Broadway and the rest of the businesses that relied on Macy's lunch.

I'm mad that Macy's put zero effort into the store.

It's funny because yesterday I think I saw more Macy's bags in people's hands downtown then I recall seeing before.

I really hope something can be done to salvage the space and the Railway Exchange project. It's such an amazing building. Locust & 6th street is just going to be deader than dead now.

Ugh, holding out for good news now!

the count wrote:This is what I wrote two years ago, right after the "renovation".

the count wrote:Something's fishy. Initially they said the cost of the renovation was going to be $5-7 million. They really didn't do much renovating other than some new carpeting and paintwork. I doubt they even spent $1 million on it. The counters on the first floor still scream 70's.

They renewed their lease for just 5 years. They must've had yet another change of heart. I am skeptical this renovation is going to turn the store around.

If Macy's had been serious about the downtown store, they would have brought it up to par with the other stores in the region. I believe they would have had a fighting chance to make it a success.

They didn't.

The store was downsized but not renovated. In fact, the store became much less attractive without the restaurants and the loss of the 4th floor connecting skybridge to the parking garage.

Whenever you saw visitors walk around you could see the astonished look on their faces taking in the sad state of affairs in the store. It made me feel embarrassed for my city.

Macy's decided from the takeover of the May co. that they wouldn't keep the store open. They squeezed out all the money they could get from the city in order to delay the inevitable without losing a ton of money.

After Federated's takeover of the May company the fate of the downtown store was sealed.

This is the hard truth. And you were spot-on about the so-called "renovation".

Five to seven million dollars? Ha! I can't believe someone even floated that figure around when it was painfully evident that Macy's didn't even spend the $1 million they managed to coax out of the city through incentives, that I wound up paying for with a higher sales tax on everything I bought there.

It pains me to say this, but Federated/Macy's Inc. played the city and its citizens just like the Cardinals played them with Ballpark Village. Bill DeWallet III promised us blocks of high-density development and gave us a cowboy bar, a couple of Applebee's doppelgangers with Cardinals and Budweiser themes, and a big asphalt lot. Macy's promised St. Louis a regional headquarters and a renovated store, only to strip away nearly 2,000 corporate jobs, close the restaurants, cut the retail space by more than half, and cut off the skybridge to "save" the store. And then they broke their last promise yesterday when they announced they'd leave less than halfway through their current lease.

Pardon me if my memory is a bit fuzzy since I was in grade school at the time. But if I recall correctly, when Dillard's bought Stix, Baer & Fuller, SB&F was struggling. (Long story short, SB&F bit off more than it could chew when it expanded outside the St. Louis area by building a store on Ward Parkway in Kansas City and acquiring Bressmer's of Springfield, Illinois. And Famous-Barr was in much better shape from the beginning.) They had originally planned to build a new store on the south side of Washington Avenue as part of St. Louis Centre as recently as the late 1970s. But when those plans fell through for whatever reason, SB&F moved its executive offices to the top level of the former Crestwood Plaza store by 1980. The downtown store remained, but it closed in 1983 after Dillard's acquired SB&F, it reopened a few months later under the Dillard's nameplate, and it shrunk from seven or eight floors to three, just like Macy's did with Famous-Barr. The difference is, Dillard's stayed for well over a decade (1984-2001), and I don't believe they used tax incentives to renovate the store. Granted, their renovation was even worse, as they stripped the character out of the place and turned SB&F's main level (which was even lighter and airier than Famous-Barr's) into a depressing dungeon. But hey, it was the 1980s, I'm sure they thought it was cool just like Simon and Associates thought St. Louis Centre's white and green stripey facade was cool. And we wonder why there will soon be no traditional retail left in downtown. I guess we should be glad we had a store as long as we did, even though I'm still p!$$ed at Macy's for putting forth such a pathetic attempt.

arch city wrote:#1. I don't think anyone is underestimating the impact of Macy's closing. I think we are simply saying that it isn't the end of downtown. I could be wrong, but personally I have always thought other retailers were afraid to locate downtown because of Macy's. And because Macy's was coveted a serious pursuit of other retailers was flat-lined.

Do you have evidence of this? If anything, I think there are several businesses that could have benefited from co-tenancy.

#2. Many cities across this country do not have a single department store downtown, yet they have thriving or fairly healthy downtowns - Houston, Cleveland and to some extent Kansas City come to mind. Downtown St. Louis will be fine.

I didn't get that impression from KC or Cleveland, but I agree that there are other downtowns that serve as examples, like Denver for one.

#3. Macy's closing now presents a real opportunity for other national stores, entrepreneurs and mom-and-pop stores to open locations downtown.

True. The mom-and-pops may give it a try, but they're not going to be attracted to that immediate area (with the exception of the MX Building) with a monolithic dead zone between Sixth, Seventh, Olive, and Locust streets, at least not in the short-term. And the national retailers are going to want incentives.

#4. City Hall must become REcommitted to pursuing retail downtown by offering different types of creative incentives.

Agreed. I will grant you that even the effort to keep Macy's was part of the problem. There's still a reactive rather than proactive mindset in place at City Hall.

#5. At one time, the MX District was going to partner with General Growth Properties to help land retail in the district - then the recession hit. What are the current plans? What about pursuing THF Realty or some other firm to

Spinnaker has done well so far to attract MX Movies and the restaurants on the south side of Washington Avenue as well as what they've done with the former Stix, Baer & Fuller. If anything, The Laurel's rebirth in that building provides a blueprint or at least some hope for the Railway Exchange, even if the latter building is much larger.

#6. Because the outcome of the closure WILL NOT change, instead of staying stuck in the mindset of "woe" or "past history" .......try to transition to the mindset of "what's next?" What can be done to reshape downtown St. Louis without Macy's? Life changes. Downtown changes.

Careful, man. Some of us are still moving through the seven stages of grief. But we're as interested in "what's next" as everyone else.

Short-term, I worry that downtown is treading water as stlgasm said. Long-term, I am confident it will be fine.

#7. PNC Bank has been closing branches all across the country in recent months. In Pittsburgh, where the bank is headquartered, PNC announced the closure of 10 branches there last week.

As I said before, the loss of a small bank branch is less significant than yet another vacancy in a downtown with no dearth of vacancies.

But quite honestly, I don't care what PNC does because my distrust and distaste for major banks runs far deeper than any anger that I have toward Macy's now.

And finally, Alex...

Alex Ihnen wrote:Is there something the city should have done/should be doing to make downtown more conducive to retail? Streetscape improvement? Lighting? Security? Two-way streets? Dynamic parking meters? And is downtown retail important to the city? Our city resources are quite focused on a $500M Arch grounds revamp - will that effort attract retail? What is the city's plan for downtown?

I agree with everything you said above. And you were spot-on in your earlier post as well. The city (from City Hall to various organizations) seems so fixated on "fixing" the Gateway Arch grounds, as well as sports, casinos, parades, and events, that it can't ever be bothered to make retail a priority. That's why I think the city's effort to save Macy's was as half-arsed as Macy's promise to improve the store and keep it open.

The major loss here is, as others have said, convenient access to everyday personal goods and clothing -- for both downtown employees and visitors to the City. Socks, dresses, button-down shirts and ties. Umbrellas. Cologne. Last-minute gifts (or gift cards) for a co-worker's birthday or going-away party. Et cetera.

That's not a working model for a major retailer now-a-days. It can't (and arguably, shouldn't) sustain on those kinds of one-off "need" purchases. Rather, it requires a "want" customer base.

The problem is that Macy's had to be that "need"-style store downtown. The residential base isn't strong enough yet, the business class is content to drive to a mall after work for their "want" shopping, and there's NO other viable downtown "need" option to allow Macy's to be something else.

[One anecdote: I was staying at the Ballpark Hilton as part of a wedding party and realized I had no black socks. In torrential rain, I set out at a dead sprint across Kiener Plaza, down 6th street and into Macy's. Got some socks, bought an umbrella, picked up a head scarf for my date and was able to get back to the hotel...all in about 15-20 minutes. I don't know what my options would be now. Hope that one of the random beauty/tobacco shops are open and have a supply, I guess?]

I'd like to see a CVS installed in the base of the Locust/6th parking garage to begin catering to some of those basic daily non-apparel "need" purchases. Since CVS's model doesn't really include clothing (but maybe it should!), we'd need one or two more shops offering fashionable, reasonably-priced clothing to fully cover what we've lost with the downtown Macy's.

Again this is part of the decline of department store retail. There are plenty of other downtowns that are dealing with this loss. Then again, I don't see this as a huge loss. Sure in the short-term it seems that way, but if you look at the shopping habits of today's 18-30 year olds, they aren't exactly screaming to go shopping at Macy's and other big department stores. They love stores like Urban Outfitters, Gap, H&M, American Apparel, etc. Department stores are not the future, and they haven't been for a long time. They are outdated for the market dynamics today and must significantly change if they want to compete.

What I thought was weird is the downtown stl partnership's twitter account stated that this was a national trend and not a local issue. But in the biz journal, Kevin Farrell stated - “Even after they downsized, it’s still a 180,000-square-foot department store; that’s a huge retail operation,” Farrell said. “Its difficult for small to mid-sized downtowns to generate the kind of retail sales at that level.” Clearly stating that this is a local issue and not only a national trend.

Honestly, while both factors are reasons for the closure, I think the partnerships twitter shouldn't act as if it's not a local issue.

Full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/blog ... l?page=all

A CVS or Walgreens, Foot Locker or Payless, Ross or Gap, and a Men's Wearhouse, Jos. A. Bank or Brooks Brothers would fulfill about 95% of the void left by Macy's. Four stores.

It could be surprising how much people prefer shopping in a new light-filled atmosphere (ie Culinaria) and therefore visit it and spend more than the dingy old catacombs of Macy's.

I think the key to downtown's retail future is its population growth. As long as that trend continues, which I think it will, the retail will follow.

Also, not to go all laissez faire economics, but I'd rather see city hall focus on infrastructure (specifically the DT streetcar, N-S Metrolink, and DT streetscape projects) and big picture ideas than going after individual retailers. It seems to me that the retailers themselves are usually best at knowing where they will succeed and that developers like Amos Harris have more expertise in bringing them in.

stlien wrote:What I thought was weird is the downtown stl partnership's twitter account stated that this was a national trend and not a local issue. But in the biz journal, Kevin Farrell stated - “Even after they downsized, it’s still a 180,000-square-foot department store; that’s a huge retail operation,” Farrell said. “Its difficult for small to mid-sized downtowns to generate the kind of retail sales at that level.” Clearly stating that this is a local issue and not only a national trend.

Honestly, while both factors are reasons for the closure, I think the partnerships twitter shouldn't act as if it's not a local issue.

Full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/blog ... l?page=all

It's a national trend and since it's occurring here, I suppose it's also a local issue. I don't understand the concern with semantics though. Was the Macy's profitable? Although it's disappointing they're leaving, I'm not sure there was a market here.

Anyway, I find the suggestion that downtown is "treading water" to be a bit silly. The market is just reflecting reality after external incentives dried up. If we wish to see more retail, we've got to create a more robust demographic market.

I hope this doesn't seem too trivial but I'd like to see the Christmas model train window display remain downtown StL. Somewhere downtown.

I'd hate for it to end up in someone's basement or on display in another city.

The set's scenery art wasn't too StL or even Missouri themed (except for that tiny Macy's billboard and some mid-century modern model houses). Maybe it was in ways I am missing. Does anyone know the set's history? How long has that particular display been used? etc. If it has historic significance, it needs to stay downtown. IMO

I'll write a "Dear Sir or Madam" letter to Macy's regarding its disposition but if someone had a contact that would help.

Here is a phone video I made a few years back. http://vimeo.com/66646272

I live in Soulard and shopped at the downtown Macy's several times a year. I thought their selection was improving, but still lacking.

I would find myself there usually on a Saturday morning/afternoon and I wanted to pick up some new duds but didn't have the desire to drive to Brentwood or South County.

It seemed like business at those times was picking up, but maybe just a smattering of conventioneers and those going to a Blues/Cards game with time to kill before or after the game.

And while we all bemoan the lack of a central place to grab socks, greeting cards, dress shirt, cologne, etc. downtown I can see where Macy's cannot make a go of it on that kind of random business.

At the same time had Macy's expanded their selection and tried a little harder downtown maybe just enough downtown residents and workers would have utilized that location for their main self and gift shopping to keep the store going a bit longer. But with the coinciding closings of other major downtown department stores across the country it seems likely an increased effort by Macy's would have only delayed the inevitable.

I'll miss the old store, but now is the time to focus on what can go in there and succeed in the 21st century. I was in San Francisco last fall at the time the City Target was opening there to much fanfare. I'd certainly like to see that or some of the other retail options posters have mentioned wind up in the Railway Exchange.

The suggestion of men's warehouse, foot locker etc is great imo. I work in creve coeur so idk the situation downtown but I usually shop for work clothes after work and having a men's warehouse or jos a. Banks down there would be great