I know the upcoming Kiener Plaza work technically is part of the City+Arch+River project, but I thought it would be good to have its own thread. If it is designed well I think it will be a big hit and help draw folks from the Arch to the city proper.

Here is a refresher of what's planned...





http://www.stltoday.com/entertainment/r ... 24a57.html

I am a bit concerned about the Great Lawn space being dormant on non-event days and hope they can easily bring furniture, etc. out for normal activity. My understanding is that things are awaiting Preservation Commission review before construction starts.

^ that certainly would help but I think a lot can be done with a revamp of what I think is a poorly designed plaza.

Removing Twain would be a fantastic start, but I see that isn't part of the plan. That thing is hideousness personified. Richard Serra had one idea and used it to ruin so many common spaces.

I really like the waterfall and amphitheater. No problem with changing the upper lawn, and freshening and upgrading what's already there. But dropping millions on what I think is one of the better outdoor features on the mall makes no sense to me. I think a lot of people would agree as when I am downtown Kiener plaza amphitheater is one of the most heavily used parts of the mall.

I'd MUCH rather they spend that money extending city garden west reconfiguring the dead zone that is Twain...

^ Hopefully the Gateway Mall Conservancy will reactivate once C+A+R wraps up to tackle some of the other blocks that need work. But honestly I think Kiener presently is pretty much a bust.... if done well it should see much better day in, day out use. I'd like to see it more as a compliment to Citygarden but geared a bit more to workers and adults rather than kids/families.

Last time I was there I saw roughly 30 people mostly kids playing in the fountain. A group of teens on mountain bikes, older people sitting and watching the activity. Granted it was before a Cardinals game and a weekend, but I fail to see how it is a bust.

Secondly what aspect of the new design is going to drive more activity. Basically it's a grass oval, with a log playground off to one side. The log play ground would be awesome btw on the west end of the mall where there are very few amenities or as part of an addition to city garden but hardly reason to tear the entire plaza up. The fountain room could be added to the current plaza as well, not exactly transformative. This one shows space for a planned future visitor center. There already is a building that could serve that purpose at Kiener.

Agree roofline thingy can go with no complaints from me.

^^ Gary, I agree that Gateway One plaza could use a re-working... perhaps they could do an arrangement with Downtown Now to operate it as a "private" park open to the public along the lines of the Old Post Office Plaza. (Situated between Kiener and Citygarden, I think ideally there would be a visitor's center with restrooms and dining, etc. but obviously that won't happen with the private interests.)

I'm not sure tough that they need to add an attraction or do anything to extensive to improve the space.... one thing I'd really like to see that is relatively simple is extending the "hallway" on the Market side that already exists on the Citygarden blocks and which I think may be going in on the Kiener blocks. That would go a long way to tying things together with connectivity and pleasing aesthetics and ideally would be in place from at least from 4th to Tucker if not beyond. Enhancing the restaurant/patio seating area so you could have a version of the "Sauce on the Side Effect" would be very helpful as well. Adding a cool water feature or sculpture along the lines of what u_d had in mind above could be a part of that.

^^ Peabody doesn't own the building but even if they did a multi-party agreement creating an arrangement like the private-but-open-to-the-public Old Post Office Plaza would be a possibility.

pat wrote:I don't think there should really be any green space at Kiener. Its the center of downtown. It should be treated as an urban square. Newspaper stands, street vendors, street performers. It is a perfect spot for a european style square.

I share the concern at least with a large great lawn (edited).... I think there is some room for a modest lawn but it should be flexible, with street furniture, etc. there during normal days when there are no events. An ice rink could go there during winter months as well.

STLEnginerd wrote:Last time I was there I saw roughly 30 people mostly kids playing in the fountain. A group of teens on mountain bikes, older people sitting and watching the activity. Granted it was before a Cardinals game and a weekend, but I fail to see how it is a bust.

Secondly what aspect of the new design is going to drive more activity. Basically it's a grass oval, with a log playground off to one side. The log play ground would be awesome btw on the west end of the mall where there are very few amenities or as part of an addition to city garden but hardly reason to tear the entire plaza up. The fountain room could be added to the current plaza as well, not exactly transformative. This one shows space for a planned future visitor center. There already is a building that could serve that purpose at Kiener.

From my perspective, successful design would pack this area and draw more people than even Citygarden... it offers one of the most iconic views in America yet fails to draw a significant amount of people. I agree more modest things can be done to enhance the area but I believe a fundamental problem is the sunken ampitheater.... it is too dated, too large and too underutilized.

Obviously there is no guarantee that what replaces it will maximize the potential and honestly without studying it too much and having a lack of detailed renderings, etc., I really haven't formed too strong of an opinion on the plans. I do have some concerns on lawn space and some of the comments from C+A+R about drawing children (kids are fine but I believe the main draw should be for adults) but I think there is good potential here to be a successful urban plaza.

The upper section is plenty big for any number of rally type events, though i will admit central positioning of the runner fountain probably hinders that kind of use more than it helps. I like the idea of a reconfigured fountain could also be converted to a stage for events by basically turning off the water and adding a platform though I'm not certain where exactly to locate it for best effect. The Runner statue could be moved, i am OK with that as long as it finds an appropriately prominent new home.

The amphitheater basin might work nicely as an ice rink location during winter months as well, assuming the stage in the middle of the basin was removed. Would be reminiscent of Rockefeller Center's sunken layout.


Even if the plaza was left largely unchanged but sidewalks were widened significantly, and the red frame blocking the view of the arch/courthouse was removed it would be pretty big aesthetic upgrade. Add some small outbuilding that offers creature comforts like snow cones in the summer, hot cocoa/hot cider in the winter, tourist info and tickets, newspapers and magazines and you have a pretty attractive plaza.

A big part of the plaza failure is the lack of programing, something that won't be fixed by starting over with a completely new layout. Removing a prominent and impressive water feature is not going to help either. Kids love that thing.

In regards to the garages needing some much needed work, wasn't there a rendering floating around of some aesthetic changes possibly coming soon?