urbanSTL

I don't think the sunken ampitheater is a wise use of space.

WHY???? I hear that alot. What is so unwise about it? I Just don't get it.

Guarantee if you remove it people will start talking about how downtown needs an amphitheater because there is nowhere to have events like that. (I believe there were proposals for diferent amphitheaters in Arch ground proposals, and riverfront proposal) I think it would be a great draw if they actually DID STUFF with it.

For Instance...
It already draws alot of kids who love playing in the fountain on a hot day.
Why not the ice skating rink. If you filled the basin it would be as big as Rockefeller Centers rink.
Its an amphitheater when is the last time someone scheduled a concert there.
...Or a play
...Or a political rally
How about put up a big screen and do movie nights.
Food truck Fridays
etc, etc, etc

Compare the versatility of use to say a big grassy oval... The new plan (If it happens) is going to be a deadzone. WHAT IS SO WISE ABOUT IT??????

We'll have to see how the re-do turns out,

That means we'll be stuck with whatever they decide. That always works out well.

Use the money to add an outdoor stereo system, remove the red skeleton, upgrade the upper lawn, freshen the plaza overall and MOST IMPORTANTLY get some actual programming in there.

^ In my opinion it is largely dead space that attracts relatively few people and impedes circulation. Simply put, compared to Citygarden, I don't think it attracts people to come on downtown and enjoy a couple hours of fun.

I agree that public involvement, as with the whole C+A+R project, has been annoying as heck. I also agree that we should come to a decision on where regular concerts, etc. should go. Personally, I don't think the spot should be at Kiener and would be better suited more around City Hall/Soldier's Memorial area. I am not prepared to say that what we'll end up with at Kiener will be worth it at this point.

I too would like to see the current waterfall/fountain stay.

Clean it up and work the new designs around it.

^ Dangit you guys.... you're making me get down there and reevaluate!

I guess the way I'd put it is my preference is not to have it there and I certainly wouldn't put it there if we were creating the space for the first time. But it is there and I also understand that my super awesome alternative likely isn't what will replace it. So without really understanding the actual proposal too well I can't say whether it is a good idea to remove it.

So I went down there today late this afternoon/early evening and it just reinforced my impression that the ampitheater just doesn't work very well. Beautiful day and Cards night but there just weren't many people there while Citygarden was much more active. We could spend several million to freshen it up but at the end of the day I just think it is a space-waster as pat says here:

pat wrote:I think my problem with it is that its a sunken amphitheater. When its not being used as an amphitheater, its a hole in the ground with a fountain. Not much active use when there isn't a band playing. If it was brought to grade, people would pass through rather than walk around it. Right now when its not being used as an amphitheater, people go around it and by default avoid going through Keiner plaza.

Look at City Garden and how its different. You can pass through City Garden in just about any direction possible and it encourages you to do so. I don't think the amphitheater at Kiener has that same magnetism.

Exactly... it impedes circulation thus creating a dead zone. I think a few things could be done around the edges to help a bit but there isn't a whole lot of room and millions would be needed to bring it up to speed regardless. Having an at grade, flexible space would be preferable, imo. Anyway, I think it is a shame C+A+R hasn't been more transparent with this but hopefully we wind up with a winner like Citygarden.

^ I'm not sure about feasibility of keeping the waterfall, but they are planning to have a new, interactive water fountain but I'm not sure on details.... it would be kind of neat to somehow have an interactive nod to our history of water navigation, not just Chouteau and Laclede, Lewis and Clark, the steamboat era and modern barges and, of course, Cahokia civilization.

I don't see that in the plan. Do you have any reference for that?

Also even it it was its not as impressive a backdrop as the view from Kiener... If that matters to anyone. It also doesn't change the stance that.demolition is not an acceptable option unless it is clear that whatever is taking its place is significantly better that what is being removed. The proposed plan just doesn't do it.

southcitygent wrote:There will be a large natural amphitheater on the renovated Arch grounds where the garage used to be. This has the potential to be a greatly improved space over Kiener Plaza. Sitting on a cool grassy lawn as apposed to a hot concrete bowl would be much more enjoyable. It will also drive more people into the Landing.

Here is a rendering of it:



I look forward to seeing how circulation works when all is said in done... I definitely think a greater percentage of visitors will be parking in the CBD with the new entrance (and especially if there is no replacement garage built in the Landing) but I can see more lingering in the park and people drawn to the Landing. I do think we'll see a bump in visitation and longer stays, which is great because that means more $$ for downtown biz.

^well to each their own. Nothing cool about this on a hot summer day though. I guess that's just the nature of amphitheaters, to have no shade. So is the general sentiment that THIS is a worthy replacement for Kiener? We won't need a more permanent amphitheater downtown?

Btw everyone says Keiner concrete is uncomfortable but it would be easy to rent cushions for people to sit on if they actually had events there. That's what they do at the bullfights in Madrid.

The thing that sucks about Kiener is the pit interrupts circulation, but it's also why it's cool, because walking by you can see everything going on down there and if it's something interesting, watch for a while. I'm serious put an ice rink in the pit this winter and we'll all be thinking why aren't we as a region using Kiener more.

^ I don't think we need an amphitheater downtown, and I don't think I want one in the CBD. I think I would designate Kaufman and Poelker parks along Tucker as the primary area for concerts and larger events downtown and take a look at what enhancements could be made to maximize that use while keeping it clean, nicely landscaped and attractive on a day-to-day basis.

For Kiener Plaza I'd like to see flexible, dynamic space that draws folks in. Beach space in summer replaced with ice skating in winter; area for chess play, etc., lots of outdoor furniture for eating and relaxing that can be removed for special events. Visitor's Center, bike rentals, restrooms, wireless. food trucks, retail trucks. Superior landscaping, water features, etc. And extend that "hallway"
along Market in Citygarden on down to Broadway.

^Basically you want Klyde Warren Park in Dallas transplanted to downtown St. Louis.

http://www.klydewarrenpark.org/

Just saying...

Looks like they revised it a bit and are keeping the fountain and statue in place:





http://www.cityarchriver.org/2015/08/20 ... gn-update/

Not in awe but we'll see.

The one negative for me are the trees blocking out the view of the courthouse steps. I thought that was a nice vista to draw your eye in the original plan.

framer wrote:Looks good to me.

What's a "Bicycle Grove"?

A place for cyclists to clandestinely get their thing on.