urbanSTL

Personally, I like the amphitheater -- it's biggest issue is a lack of programming. Regularly scheduled concert events, activities and food-focused events would do wonders to consistently activate the space. I was of the impression that was one of the purposes of the Gateway Mall Conservancy, but I guess not.

The complaint I also hear is that the amphitheater is too isolated -- people walking or driving past can't see into it so they tend to avoid it. This could be resolved by simply widening out the bowl. Grade the steps all the way out to the sidewalk at all three edges and it would become more inviting. From there, just install some visual pieces to further draw people in.

I don't like the new design, if only because it creates yet another flat, surface-level plaza/pavilion, which downtown already has in spades. If it does nothing else, at least the amphitheater creates some depth and vertical variance.

[Sidenote: I think the mass of the gateway mall has done as much to kill street activity as the too-wide Market Street and the monolithic garages and uninviting government buildings. If the E-W streetcar became a thing, I'd like to see one of the western blocks -- maybe the one across from the Library -- become a trolley stop. I can envision a streetcar pulling off the street and into the square for drop-offs/pick-ups. Picnicers can jump off and set up shop, maybe install a bandstand with regularly-programmed musical performances, etc.]

As long as it has fountains and water features and playgrounds for kids, it will be a success in the summer. Everywhere there are free fountains in the city in the summer, there are kids having a blast playing in them and making the space look like the architect drawings, except for the guy holding 40 balloons. I hope they make the fountain around the runner statue kid friendly, like this one in Portland. This is the Salmon Street Springs Fountain on the riverfront in downtown Portland Oregon. There is no pool or outer rim to step over, and the fountain is programmed to cycle through a number of spray patterns continuously.

roger wyoming II wrote:^ I'm not positive, but I believe kids will be able to enjoy water features in the "fountain garden" on the western end. The area I'm most concerned about is the expansive courthouse lawn area.... could be a dead zone most days.

So I think it would help if they made that fountain kid-friendly as well as the Western edge fountains to keep the lawn from becoming a dead zone.

Surroundings need to be changed more than anything.

Kiener Plaza construction cam was added today. Looking forward to watching this develop.

Yes the garages look hideous.

stlwahoo wrote:Kiener Plaza construction cam was added today. Looking forward to watching this develop.

Yes the garages look hideous.

The best thing that could happen downtown would be demo and redevelopment of Kiener east and west and Busch east and west garages - They take up 8 blocks - they are beyond hideous Busch garages a street killers with no storefronts.

Honestly redeveloping those properties would do more for Kiener plaza and the ballpark then anything else

^I think the most recent TOD plan for downtown shows renderings of the Busch garages with street level retail. But of course you know how much that actually means.

Those medians were pretty but they messed up parades. Better to give the street a diet.

There will be a parking protected bike lane on chestnut long the plaza and also back in parking along the plaza on Market.

I miss the amphitheater. What was the basis for removing it again?

Just kinda looks like city garden 2.0..

bwcrow1s wrote: ↑

May 18, 2017

Just kinda looks like city garden 2.0..

That's high praise!

bwcrow1s wrote: ↑

May 18, 2017

I miss the amphitheater. What was the basis for removing it again?

Just kinda looks like city garden 2.0..

St. Louis' Citygarden, South Grand win national landscape design awards

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 0f31a.html

bwcrow1s wrote: ↑

May 18, 2017

I miss the amphitheater. What was the basis for removing it again?

Well, no one really used it, for one thing.

Several years ago, Kiener was named to a listing of the nation's worst public spaces. The ampitheater was a tired concept whose best days were behind it.

Remembering The Old Kiener Plaza
http://www.urbanreviewstl.com/2017/05/r ... ner-plaza/

hebeters2 wrote:Remembering The Old Kiener Plaza

I remember as this. Nelly 2012

STLEnginerd wrote: ↑

May 19, 2017

debaliviere wrote: ↑

May 18, 2017

bwcrow1s wrote: ↑

May 18, 2017

I miss the amphitheater. What was the basis for removing it again?

Well, no one really used it, for one thing.

Several years ago, Kiener was named to a listing of the nation's worst public spaces. The ampitheater was a tired concept whose best days were behind it.

Well not really true exactly. I would say there was little to no programming for it. I suspect this site will suffer for the same reason.

I have often see casual use of the amphitheater and certainly the falls were popular for kids in the summer. Of course was also popular for homeless to bathe in which between that and the increasing maintainance for the pumps and pipes are the primary reasons I suspect it "had to go". One common reason was also that it's sunken nature made it hard to police.

My beef is its replacement was never compelling enough to justify the expense. For instance if it had been proposed as an under ground garage facility with a park on top, while simultaneously paired with a significant development to replace one of the kiener garages, I would have been all for it. As it is... meh.

I would say that the new design has programming "built in" via play ground, movable seating and spray ground - people avoided the old one with intent - blazing hot in the summer - the landscaping looked like haphazard - the hole was a catch basin for blowing trash - the arcade was barrier that did not feel comfortable or even scaled correctly