Looks like they're going to take out a decent chunk of the Crown Center.
NBC article says a new headquarters for Hallmark is part of the development. Pretty nice for KC. Makes me hate our businesses even more.
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Yeah, this stadium replaces the current Hallmark headquarters. The team explained that the stadium cost $1.9 Billion and the mixed-use development of $1.1 Billion for a $3 Billion first phase. $2 Billion will be private investment. The ballpark district details will be released later, but involve Washington Square Park and renovations to Crown Center.
There's no way fountains at that level in dead center with work for batters.
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KC has a population of approx 2.2M; Question, how will the region support two entertainment centers (PL) and this? Don't see it.Chris Stritzel wrote: ↑7:09 PM - 1 day agoYeah, this stadium replaces the current Hallmark headquarters. The team explained that the stadium cost $1.9 Billion and the mixed-use development of $1.1 Billion for a $3 Billion first phase. $2 Billion will be private investment. The ballpark district details will be released later, but involve Washington Square Park and renovations to Crown Center.StlAlex wrote: ↑5:05 PM - 1 day agoNBC article says a new headquarters for Hallmark is part of the development. Pretty nice for KC. Makes me hate our businesses even more.
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This appears to be a revamp of CC. So expansion of family entertainment / retail, more housing / hotel, and new office. Not a bar party district.courtland wrote:KC has a population of approx 2.2M; Question, how will the region support two entertainment centers (PL) and this? Don't see it.Chris Stritzel wrote: ↑7:09 PM - 1 day agoYeah, this stadium replaces the current Hallmark headquarters. The team explained that the stadium cost $1.9 Billion and the mixed-use development of $1.1 Billion for a $3 Billion first phase. $2 Billion will be private investment. The ballpark district details will be released later, but involve Washington Square Park and renovations to Crown Center.StlAlex wrote: ↑5:05 PM - 1 day agoNBC article says a new headquarters for Hallmark is part of the development. Pretty nice for KC. Makes me hate our businesses even more.
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I find it a little amusing they are pissed that there’s not a 50 story grand tower included in the renderings I mean if that’s all you care about is getting 1 tall tower then your life is pathetic I think the overall plan is good & they should be more than grateful that the Royals are even moving to Downtown/Midtown & on top of that likely keeping Hallmark. If St.Louis can even get the littlest bit of commitment from one of our big companies just to have offices Downtown I think that be a home run.. Cardinals are taking their time with building out the final phase of Ballpark Village.. Good day for KC
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It's a pretty good juxtaposition of the state of business in STL vs KC.PlatinumBlues wrote:I find it a little amusing they are pissed that there’s not a 50 story grand tower included in the renderings I mean if that’s all you care about is getting 1 tall tower then your life is pathetic I think the overall plan is good & they should be more than grateful that the Royals are even moving to Downtown/Midtown & on top of that likely keeping Hallmark. If St.Louis can even get the littlest bit of commitment from one of our big companies just to have offices Downtown I think that be a home run.. Cardinals are taking their time with building out the final phase of Ballpark Village.. Good day for KC
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STL bent over backwards for the Rams, they left anyway. Cardinals took years finding an office tenant after getting burned by Centene and Stifel, ended up with a relocation across the street and their former space has still not been filled.
Kansas City outright rejected the Chiefs and Royals, the Chiefs stay in the region and the Royals choose a significant location improvement, and a company is already on board to partner with the project from the start which apparently will include a brand new corporate headquarters.
Meanwhile the 2 largest wins for downtown business in the last 15 years for STL was Stifel buying their own building and Spire filling the GenAm building. I mean we get all happy about relatively small companies like Build a Bear and Larson moving downtown. We'd piss ourselves if the Cardinals announced tomorrow that Purina is the anchor tenant for office as part of BPV3, it's just that impossible to us.
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It'll probably be how Kauffman is right now. They turn the fountains down and leave the waterfalls on during at-bats. Home runs, they let the fountains fly as well as in intermission between innings.dweebe wrote: ↑7:30 PM - 1 day agoThere's no way fountains at that level in dead center with work for batters.
Some people over here, especially on the KCRag, were entirely convinced that Washington Square Park was the site and began convincing themselves yesterday, when it came out Washington Square wouldn't be the site, that the Crown Center stadium would be a terrible idea. You're seeing that same mindset today. A "doomer" outlook for a handful of users over there who I doubt watched the press conference like I did. Both John Sherman and Donald Hall explicitly said that plans are early for a mixed-use ballpark district and that the teams at the Royals and Hallmark will work together to create a master-plan for how this will go. That's just not enough for some people. The most important thing for the Royals was finally choosing a site for the stadium and ending the rumors.PlatinumBlues wrote: ↑11:07 PM - 1 day agoI find it a little amusing they are pissed that there’s not a 50 story grand tower included in the renderings I mean if that’s all you care about is getting 1 tall tower then your life is pathetic I think the overall plan is good & they should be more than grateful that the Royals are even moving to Downtown/Midtown & on top of that likely keeping Hallmark. If St.Louis can even get the littlest bit of commitment from one of our big companies just to have offices Downtown I think that be a home run.. Cardinals are taking their time with building out the final phase of Ballpark Village.. Good day for KC
One KCRag user is even hoping that Councilman Duncan and anti-new stadium folks petition this to a public vote so that it fails the team is forced to try again, which is hilarious because this is it. Why shoot down a proposal that retains the City's baseball team and a large employers while overhauling an aging complex in the middle of the City?
They want to be mad for the sake of being mad because their dreams didn't come true (even though they did, just the "Downtown Stadium" is now in Crown Center, which to most people in the KC region is Downtown).
I honestly cannot imagine being upset at what news has come out. Actually pretty crazy that anyone outside of the hard-core anti-tax subsidy people are upset.Chris Stritzel wrote:Some people over here, especially on the KCRag, were entirely convinced that Washington Square Park was the site and began convincing themselves yesterday, when it came out Washington Square wouldn't be the site, that the Crown Center stadium would be a terrible idea. You're seeing that same mindset today. A "doomer" outlook for a handful of users over there who I doubt watched the press conference like I did. Both John Sherman and Donald Hall explicitly said that plans are early for a mixed-use ballpark district and that the teams at the Royals and Hallmark will work together to create a master-plan for how this will go. That's just not enough for some people. The most important thing for the Royals was finally choosing a site for the stadium and ending the rumors.PlatinumBlues wrote: ↑11:07 PM - 1 day agoI find it a little amusing they are pissed that there’s not a 50 story grand tower included in the renderings I mean if that’s all you care about is getting 1 tall tower then your life is pathetic I think the overall plan is good & they should be more than grateful that the Royals are even moving to Downtown/Midtown & on top of that likely keeping Hallmark. If St.Louis can even get the littlest bit of commitment from one of our big companies just to have offices Downtown I think that be a home run.. Cardinals are taking their time with building out the final phase of Ballpark Village.. Good day for KC
One KCRag user is even hoping that Councilman Duncan and anti-new stadium folks petition this to a public vote so that it fails the team is forced to try again, which is hilarious because this is it. Why shoot down a proposal that retains the City's baseball team and a large employers while overhauling an aging complex in the middle of the City?
They want to be mad for the sake of being mad because their dreams didn't come true (even though they did, just the "Downtown Stadium" is now in Crown Center, which to most people in the KC region is Downtown).
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They were all fussing about how long it was taking the Royals to make an announcement & now that they did they are unhappy…Why cause they wanted it to be everything that ballpark village in St.Louis isn’t? I mean just from the renderings it’s already there…. 1.9 Billion for a stadium alone is insane Busch stadium was built for like 400 or so million & I find it to still be a beautiful stadium even with Ballpark village half built. You can never please the ungrateful’s in the first place.. Morons will be morons let them FAFO…They’ll end up without a baseball team.Chris Stritzel wrote:Some people over here, especially on the KCRag, were entirely convinced that Washington Square Park was the site and began convincing themselves yesterday, when it came out Washington Square wouldn't be the site, that the Crown Center stadium would be a terrible idea. You're seeing that same mindset today. A "doomer" outlook for a handful of users over there who I doubt watched the press conference like I did. Both John Sherman and Donald Hall explicitly said that plans are early for a mixed-use ballpark district and that the teams at the Royals and Hallmark will work together to create a master-plan for how this will go. That's just not enough for some people. The most important thing for the Royals was finally choosing a site for the stadium and ending the rumors.PlatinumBlues wrote: ↑11:07 PM - 1 day agoI find it a little amusing they are pissed that there’s not a 50 story grand tower included in the renderings I mean if that’s all you care about is getting 1 tall tower then your life is pathetic I think the overall plan is good & they should be more than grateful that the Royals are even moving to Downtown/Midtown & on top of that likely keeping Hallmark. If St.Louis can even get the littlest bit of commitment from one of our big companies just to have offices Downtown I think that be a home run.. Cardinals are taking their time with building out the final phase of Ballpark Village.. Good day for KC
One KCRag user is even hoping that Councilman Duncan and anti-new stadium folks petition this to a public vote so that it fails the team is forced to try again, which is hilarious because this is it. Why shoot down a proposal that retains the City's baseball team and a large employers while overhauling an aging complex in the middle of the City?
They want to be mad for the sake of being mad because their dreams didn't come true (even though they did, just the "Downtown Stadium" is now in Crown Center, which to most people in the KC region is Downtown).
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Yea read through some of it and my conclusion is that they'd all be extremely depressed if they had an emotional attachment to STL.PlatinumBlues wrote:They were all fussing about how long it was taking the Royals to make an announcement & now that they did they are unhappy…Why cause they wanted it to be everything that ballpark village in St.Louis isn’t? I mean just from the renderings it’s already there…. 1.9 Billion for a stadium alone is insane Busch stadium was built for like 400 or so million & I find it to still be a beautiful stadium even with Ballpark village half built. You can never please the ungrateful’s in the first place.. Morons will be morons let them FAFO…They’ll end up without a baseball team.Chris Stritzel wrote:Some people over here, especially on the KCRag, were entirely convinced that Washington Square Park was the site and began convincing themselves yesterday, when it came out Washington Square wouldn't be the site, that the Crown Center stadium would be a terrible idea. You're seeing that same mindset today. A "doomer" outlook for a handful of users over there who I doubt watched the press conference like I did. Both John Sherman and Donald Hall explicitly said that plans are early for a mixed-use ballpark district and that the teams at the Royals and Hallmark will work together to create a master-plan for how this will go. That's just not enough for some people. The most important thing for the Royals was finally choosing a site for the stadium and ending the rumors.PlatinumBlues wrote: ↑11:07 PM - 1 day agoI find it a little amusing they are pissed that there’s not a 50 story grand tower included in the renderings I mean if that’s all you care about is getting 1 tall tower then your life is pathetic I think the overall plan is good & they should be more than grateful that the Royals are even moving to Downtown/Midtown & on top of that likely keeping Hallmark. If St.Louis can even get the littlest bit of commitment from one of our big companies just to have offices Downtown I think that be a home run.. Cardinals are taking their time with building out the final phase of Ballpark Village.. Good day for KC
One KCRag user is even hoping that Councilman Duncan and anti-new stadium folks petition this to a public vote so that it fails the team is forced to try again, which is hilarious because this is it. Why shoot down a proposal that retains the City's baseball team and a large employers while overhauling an aging complex in the middle of the City?
They want to be mad for the sake of being mad because their dreams didn't come true (even though they did, just the "Downtown Stadium" is now in Crown Center, which to most people in the KC region is Downtown).
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Just a few observations
1. Big win for the KC core - it has tons of momentum and this builds on it. They are entering a heyday of development in their core right now, it’s truly something to envy
2. While definitely in the core, the “heart of downtown” seems like a stretch. Wouldn’t this be like a new stadium going in SLUs campus in StL? Sure, kind of downtown but not really. If this is considered the heart of downtown KC, we need to expand our official downtown borders in StL to pump up our demos and economic numbers
3. Looks like it will be a modernized Kauffman 2.0 in its design. I wonder what the naming rights will be
4. Does this put some pressure/arms race to get BPV built out and expanding on the east side of the state before this gets completed? If KC and the Royals get this whole district built out in 2031, that would be a little disappointing for the timing on our side. Also a little disappointing to see a card company Hallmark all in on this development and we couldn’t get a baseball company Rawlings to put their HQ next to Busch
5. I’ll be curious how Royals attendance goes after the first few years in the new park. There’s no denying that the Royals are a perennial bottom third attendance team, and I don’t know if this new stadium will improve it honestly
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1. Big win for the KC core - it has tons of momentum and this builds on it. They are entering a heyday of development in their core right now, it’s truly something to envy
2. While definitely in the core, the “heart of downtown” seems like a stretch. Wouldn’t this be like a new stadium going in SLUs campus in StL? Sure, kind of downtown but not really. If this is considered the heart of downtown KC, we need to expand our official downtown borders in StL to pump up our demos and economic numbers
3. Looks like it will be a modernized Kauffman 2.0 in its design. I wonder what the naming rights will be
4. Does this put some pressure/arms race to get BPV built out and expanding on the east side of the state before this gets completed? If KC and the Royals get this whole district built out in 2031, that would be a little disappointing for the timing on our side. Also a little disappointing to see a card company Hallmark all in on this development and we couldn’t get a baseball company Rawlings to put their HQ next to Busch
5. I’ll be curious how Royals attendance goes after the first few years in the new park. There’s no denying that the Royals are a perennial bottom third attendance team, and I don’t know if this new stadium will improve it honestly
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My take on the KC stadium is that it's beyond excessively socialized. I fully endorse downtown baseball stadiums, but $70M/year in public debt service??? That's remarkably high socialized costs that will rely on *new* revenue from two biz anchors (Royals & Hallmark) that are already in KC so have been paying taxes. Where's the *new* $ coming from? It's not, so - under the current deal - KC + Mo will be paying from the general fund.
Building from that point, I don't think a region the size of KC can support entertainment districts at Power & Light AND now this. KC already subsidizes P&L to the tune of something like $15M a year.
Building from that point, I don't think a region the size of KC can support entertainment districts at Power & Light AND now this. KC already subsidizes P&L to the tune of something like $15M a year.
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All I have to say is, if us eastern MO. folks are going to subsidize this thing in ANY way, we better get our fair share from the State when we need funding to push big projects over the finish line. I recall massive pushback from KC politicians when Busch III, the new Rams North Riverfront stadium & Blues arena renovations were being pushed in Jeff City.
How does the bill aimed at keeping sports teams in MO. work? Is it enough incentive to bring pro franchises to MO? I guess I need to read up on it.
How does the bill aimed at keeping sports teams in MO. work? Is it enough incentive to bring pro franchises to MO? I guess I need to read up on it.
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STL politicians pushed back on the Arrowhead / Royals stadium renovation subsidies in the early 2000s is how KC pols view this + some attempts to stop the current.DogtownBnR wrote:All I have to say is, if us eastern MO. folks are going to subsidize this thing in ANY way, we better get our fair share from the State when we need funding to push big projects over the finish line. I recall massive pushback from KC politicians when Busch III, the new Rams North Riverfront stadium & Blues arena renovations were being pushed in Jeff City.
How does the bill aimed at keeping sports teams in MO. work? Is it enough incentive to bring pro franchises to MO? I guess I need to read up on it.
The new State law allows any team of a certain size (think it’s like 20 or 30k seats) to capture the incentives for a renovation or new stadium.
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I think the environment was different 20-25 years ago. Stadium renovations & builds are so much more expensive in a post-covid world where materials & labor are outrageously expensive.
That being said, I can go along with State incentives as long as STL is getting our fair share. And yes, STL provides a significant portion of the States revenue, much more than KC since KC gets a lot from the KS side. I just hope the politicians on the KC have a good memory when the STL teams come knocking for incentives. It is just a matter of time.
That being said, I can go along with State incentives as long as STL is getting our fair share. And yes, STL provides a significant portion of the States revenue, much more than KC since KC gets a lot from the KS side. I just hope the politicians on the KC have a good memory when the STL teams come knocking for incentives. It is just a matter of time.
The STL team incentives were already approved at the State level. They just have to apply to EDC now same as any KC team. Think anything beyond what KC got will result in pushback.DogtownBnR wrote:I think the environment was different 20-25 years ago. Stadium renovations & builds are so much more expensive in a post-covid world where everything is outrageously expensive.
That being said, I can go along with State incentives as long as STL is getting our fair share. And yes, STL provides a significant portion of the States revenue, much more than KC since KC gets a lot from the KS side. I just hope the politicians on the KC have a good memory when the STL teams come knocking for incentives. It is just a matter of time.
I don't see how Dewitt isn't given the moon when he asks for a (largely) publicly-funded update to Busch 3. Socialism $$ from city, region, state, etc. Downtown STL absent the Cardinals 81 dates a year would all but be the formal "lights out" on DT STL. Sorry, but it's true. I get that the BPV investment makes it harder to threaten to bolt for the suburbs but, unlike the early 2000s when the state/city had more leverage, I think the tables have turned. DeWitt holds the cards now.
Cardinals ownership is not interested in moving the team anywhere. Any move would happen after the sale of the team. The DeWitts are more old-school, partially why they went with the downtown stadium district back in the 2000s.soulardx wrote:I don't see how Dewitt isn't given the moon when he asks for a (largely) publicly-funded update to Busch 3. Socialism $$ from city, region, state, etc. Downtown STL absent the Cardinals 81 dates a year would all but be the formal "lights out" on DT STL. Sorry, but it's true. I get that the BPV investment makes it harder to threaten to bolt for the suburbs but, unlike the early 2000s when the state/city had more leverage, I think the tables have turned. DeWitt holds the cards now.
They have a large # of employees who live in Illinois, players generally prefer the city, and I know some execs live in Lafayette Square and Soulard. Cardinals also said they wanted to invest in the Millennium redevelopment. They have a vested interest in where they are, they are actually a generally good business.
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I can't say I terribly disagree with much of that (other than Rawlilngs....) but it doesn't mean DeWitt won't ask (and receive) gobs of socialism for the B3 updates.StlAlex wrote: ↑7:40 PM - 1 day agoCardinals ownership is not interested in moving the team anywhere. Any move would happen after the sale of the team. The DeWitts are more old-school, partially why they went with the downtown stadium district back in the 2000s.soulardx wrote:I don't see how Dewitt isn't given the moon when he asks for a (largely) publicly-funded update to Busch 3. Socialism $$ from city, region, state, etc. Downtown STL absent the Cardinals 81 dates a year would all but be the formal "lights out" on DT STL. Sorry, but it's true. I get that the BPV investment makes it harder to threaten to bolt for the suburbs but, unlike the early 2000s when the state/city had more leverage, I think the tables have turned. DeWitt holds the cards now.
They have a large # of employees who live in Illinois, players generally prefer the city, and I know some execs live in Lafayette Square and Soulard. Cardinals also said they wanted to invest in the Millennium redevelopment. They have a vested interest in where they are, they are actually a generally good business.
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Meh - our disagreement is minor enough to move on. LOL
They will ask, but I think the bulk will end up coming from the state's stadium funding bill. I mainly just don't want people afraid of the Cardinals leaving and using this to do that.soulardx wrote:I can't say I terribly disagree with much of that (other than Rawlilngs....) but it doesn't mean DeWitt won't ask (and receive) gobs of socialism for the B3 updates.StlAlex wrote: ↑7:40 PM - 1 day agoCardinals ownership is not interested in moving the team anywhere. Any move would happen after the sale of the team. The DeWitts are more old-school, partially why they went with the downtown stadium district back in the 2000s.soulardx wrote:I don't see how Dewitt isn't given the moon when he asks for a (largely) publicly-funded update to Busch 3. Socialism $$ from city, region, state, etc. Downtown STL absent the Cardinals 81 dates a year would all but be the formal "lights out" on DT STL. Sorry, but it's true. I get that the BPV investment makes it harder to threaten to bolt for the suburbs but, unlike the early 2000s when the state/city had more leverage, I think the tables have turned. DeWitt holds the cards now.
They have a large # of employees who live in Illinois, players generally prefer the city, and I know some execs live in Lafayette Square and Soulard. Cardinals also said they wanted to invest in the Millennium redevelopment. They have a vested interest in where they are, they are actually a generally good business.
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Meh - our disagreement is minor enough to move on. LOL
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