Memphis has more flavor than KC & I don’t even like Memphis I find KC to be very bland but people seem to like bland. If I didn’t have friends there I’d never visit. St.Louis is way better on a recreational & amenities stand point there’s no comparison imo. KC despises St.Louis so much even their team colors are almost a rip off of St.Louis’s. St.Louis needs to stop giving into bad press & peoples personal opinions not everyone going to like it here & that goes for the same with every other city.
Memphis has more flavor than KC & I don’t even like Memphis I find KC to be very bland but people seem to like bland. If I didn’t have friends there I’d never visit. St.Louis is way better on a recreational & amenities stand point there’s no comparison imo. KC despises St.Louis so much even their team colors are almost a rip off of St.Louis’s. St.Louis needs to stop giving into bad press & peoples personal opinions not everyone going to like it here & that goes for the same with every other city.
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Part of the problem that anyone who chooses to live in a cookie cutter nothing suburban neighborhood prefers bland, and some 2 million of St. Louis' 2.8 million have chosen that. So 2 million in STL have a fundamental hate for non-bland things and would rather us be like KC. STL has the unfortunate reality of being much more like Chicago, or Philadelphia, or even NYC than KC, so naturally the surbuban loving robots and the media that is geared at them want to make STL look bad.
It's the same reason Cleveland and Detroit and to a lesser extent Milwaukee are all demonized as bad or "sh*tty" (according to our President-elect). They're all pre-car cities that have urban cores that reflect that. None of them are bland and they all have tons of character. But suburbanites hate that.
Milwaukee wants to remove a highway that egregiously cuts straight through the middle of the downtown way worse than any of our highways, yet I give it a 5% chance of happening because the suburbanites don't want this *actual highway to nowhere* to be removed because it will impede their commute by a few minutes. The mayor supports it, the city council, Downtown neighborhood....but the suburbanites don't so very low chance it'll happen. And this is an actual policy that would actually make Milwaukee better is opposed by those who claim it's sh*tty.
KC despises STL because KC has a larger subruban population ratio than STL, the media hates STL (along with similar cities) because most of their audience are subrubanites, people from any other KC-like city hate STL for the same reason, and STL does nothing to defend itself because the vast majority of STL literally agree. Unlike Chicago, or Philadelphia or even Baltimore which all have much larger actually urban populations and their suburbs look much closer to Kirkwood than St. Peters. It's no wonder that when east coast people visit STL they're "pleasantly surprised" with how great STL is, and they're not talking about the suburbs.
Hard to take the KC hate serious when this is the case…
We look like the obvious major city on this walk score list, not KC.
Their transit and biking is improving for sure.
Our score could take a BIG jump with the downtown biking projects, Brickline Greenway, Jefferson metrolink. We need more intra neighborhood grocery stores in the city and some increased bus frequencies to really crack the top tier in the U.S.
800 Grand
This is a project I've known about for a while, but here we go. It will replace a dilapidated parking garage at the Southwest corner of 8th and Grand and will change the north facing skyline. It's the first true residential high-rise outside of the Power and Light District proposed within the Downtown Loop (the now cancelled LuxLiving Tower at 14th and Wyandotte does not count). It still has several hurdles to cross before breaking ground.
The 800 Grand project was formally announced at the State of Downtown event yesterday. According to some people I know, the room "fell silent in awe" at the project with many commenting that it was good to see such a prominent building proposed on the north side of the skyline and to see such a large building proposed outside of the Power and Light District. 25-stories, 300+ apartments, 24,000sf of retail space with a parking garage. Desire is for a Q3 2025 start. New renderings came as a result of the announcement. The neighboring Scarritt Building is likely going to be part of this overall project, meaning this block of downtown will be mostly transformed all at once (vacant buildings redeveloped + vacant garage demolished for new construction). The 800 Grand building could grow taller as the developer signaled that the height can go up to 385ft (which isn't rendered here).
Cordish won unanimous approval to establish a new PIEA District for 4 Light at today's PIEA meeting. Next stop is City Council. If the City Council approves of the project, it will start next year. The newest renderings also give a glimpse at "5 Light", which is proposed for the block where the Strata Office Tower was supposed to go a few years ago. That block is pre-engineered for a building to be built on top of it. 4 Light features 293 apartments, retail space, and parking in a 24-story building.
Why are you all still talking about this? Move on. No one cares about KC. At this point it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. Y’all are giving it more time than it’s worth.
Focus that energy on holding our local journalists accountable for their role in perception.
Why are you all still talking about this? Move on. No one cares about KC. At this point it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. Y’all are giving it more time than it’s worth.
Focus that energy on holding our local journalists accountable for their role in perception.
KC is a completely different city than STL in so many ways that it's hard to compare the two. KC is much younger than STL, so their city reminds me more of Minneapolis or Denver, albeit hillier and struggling against decades of decline and urban renewal. Of course since we share a state, STL is their "big brother rival" city but it doesn't really make sense. Kind of like how it would be difficult to compare STL with Baltimore or Philly, just too different.
It's not that hard to compare STL to PHI or BAL. Can't imagine comparing KC to Minneapolis though. That's just insulting to Minneapolis.
I'm just talking specifically how the bones of the city pre-1950 were built. Minneapolis has done MUCH MUCH more with it (hence why they are one of my favorite American cities) than KC which has seen precipitous decline, particularly in it's prewar neighborhoods on the Missouri side east of Troost.
I wouldn't hold your breath that this conversation will die... ever. Intercity competition is basically baked into human nature at this point. I absolutely root for KC to continue succeeding and growing, and I think the majority of the urban minded folk on that side of the state root for us too when it comes down to it.
Memphis has more flavor than KC & I don’t even like Memphis I find KC to be very bland but people seem to like bland. If I didn’t have friends there I’d never visit. St.Louis is way better on a recreational & amenities stand point there’s no comparison imo. KC despises St.Louis so much even their team colors are almost a rip off of St.Louis’s. St.Louis needs to stop giving into bad press & peoples personal opinions not everyone going to like it here & that goes for the same with every other city.
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Part of the problem that anyone who chooses to live in a cookie cutter nothing suburban neighborhood prefers bland, and some 2 million of St. Louis' 2.8 million have chosen that. So 2 million in STL have a fundamental hate for non-bland things and would rather us be like KC. STL has the unfortunate reality of being much more like Chicago, or Philadelphia, or even NYC than KC, so naturally the surbuban loving robots and the media that is geared at them want to make STL look bad.
It's the same reason Cleveland and Detroit and to a lesser extent Milwaukee are all demonized as bad or "sh*tty" (according to our President-elect). They're all pre-car cities that have urban cores that reflect that. None of them are bland and they all have tons of character. But suburbanites hate that.
Milwaukee wants to remove a highway that egregiously cuts straight through the middle of the downtown way worse than any of our highways, yet I give it a 5% chance of happening because the suburbanites don't want this *actual highway to nowhere* to be removed because it will impede their commute by a few minutes. The mayor supports it, the city council, Downtown neighborhood....but the suburbanites don't so very low chance it'll happen. And this is an actual policy that would actually make Milwaukee better is opposed by those who claim it's sh*tty.
KC despises STL because KC has a larger subruban population ratio than STL, the media hates STL (along with similar cities) because most of their audience are subrubanites, people from any other KC-like city hate STL for the same reason, and STL does nothing to defend itself because the vast majority of STL literally agree. Unlike Chicago, or Philadelphia or even Baltimore which all have much larger actually urban populations and their suburbs look much closer to Kirkwood than St. Peters. It's no wonder that when east coast people visit STL they're "pleasantly surprised" with how great STL is, and they're not talking about the suburbs.
Memphis has more flavor than KC & I don’t even like Memphis I find KC to be very bland but people seem to like bland. If I didn’t have friends there I’d never visit. St.Louis is way better on a recreational & amenities stand point there’s no comparison imo. KC despises St.Louis so much even their team colors are almost a rip off of St.Louis’s. St.Louis needs to stop giving into bad press & peoples personal opinions not everyone going to like it here & that goes for the same with every other city.
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Part of the problem that anyone who chooses to live in a cookie cutter nothing suburban neighborhood prefers bland, and some 2 million of St. Louis' 2.8 million have chosen that. So 2 million in STL have a fundamental hate for non-bland things and would rather us be like KC. STL has the unfortunate reality of being much more like Chicago, or Philadelphia, or even NYC than KC, so naturally the surbuban loving robots and the media that is geared at them want to make STL look bad.
It's the same reason Cleveland and Detroit and to a lesser extent Milwaukee are all demonized as bad or "sh*tty" (according to our President-elect). They're all pre-car cities that have urban cores that reflect that. None of them are bland and they all have tons of character. But suburbanites hate that.
Milwaukee wants to remove a highway that egregiously cuts straight through the middle of the downtown way worse than any of our highways, yet I give it a 5% chance of happening because the suburbanites don't want this *actual highway to nowhere* to be removed because it will impede their commute by a few minutes. The mayor supports it, the city council, Downtown neighborhood....but the suburbanites don't so very low chance it'll happen. And this is an actual policy that would actually make Milwaukee better is opposed by those who claim it's sh*tty.
KC despises STL because KC has a larger subruban population ratio than STL, the media hates STL (along with similar cities) because most of their audience are subrubanites, people from any other KC-like city hate STL for the same reason, and STL does nothing to defend itself because the vast majority of STL literally agree. Unlike Chicago, or Philadelphia or even Baltimore which all have much larger actually urban populations and their suburbs look much closer to Kirkwood than St. Peters. It's no wonder that when east coast people visit STL they're "pleasantly surprised" with how great STL is, and they're not talking about the suburbs.
Hard to take the KC hate serious when this is the case…
We look like the obvious major city on this walk score list, not KC.
Their transit and biking is improving for sure.
Our score could take a BIG jump with the downtown biking projects, Brickline Greenway, Jefferson metrolink. We need more intra neighborhood grocery stores in the city and some increased bus frequencies to really crack the top tier in the U.S.
I have a hard time understanding why Florissant is more walkable than e.g. Kirkwood or Ferguson.
^It's about a third more dense than either and considerably larger, and surprisingly close to the background density of the city itself. (Which isn't saying all that much, mind.) It doesn't have the huge swaths of low density fortified country manorishness Kirkwood has on the north and west sides. Each of them has areas that are pretty walkable. And they each have areas that really aren't, but Florissant probably just has a little less of the latter. I'm pretty happy in my city, mind, but if I were forced at bumper-bullet-point to live in a suburb Florissant might not be a horrible choice. (Though I think I'd pick U-City if it came to it. Or maybe Belleville.)
Hard to take the KC hate serious when this is the case…
We look like the obvious major city on this walk score list, not KC.
Their transit and biking is improving for sure.
Our score could take a BIG jump with the downtown biking projects, Brickline Greenway, Jefferson metrolink. We need more intra neighborhood grocery stores in the city and some increased bus frequencies to really crack the top tier in the U.S.
I have a hard time understanding why Florissant is more walkable than e.g. Kirkwood or Ferguson.
If you were wondering the highest walk scores according to the site within StL (defines by neighborhood) -
1. Benton Park
2. Downtown
3. Tower Grove East
4. Soulard
5. Gravois Park
How this turned into a STL vs KC debate, I don't know, but I'll add my comment.
I moved from STL to KC. Both can't be compared. I get real annoyed when people from either attacks the other because it's pathetic. STL is older and full of more history, interesting architecture, and neighborhoods like what you'd find up east. KC is much younger and leans into that more. Sprawl is an issue in both cities, but the urban fabric is more intact in STL than it is in KC. The STL Metro remains the larger of the two and will likely always unless something goes extremely wrong. Most of the perception problems STL has stem from the myriad of issues Downtown faces, the crime issue, and the collapse of population. But most outsiders don't realize that there are very vibrant areas of the City that are very safe. That neglect of knowledge ends up creating division.
I've seen more of the back and forth of STL vs KC on Twitter more than anywhere else and it's always about the same things. No where else is this debate hashed out more than UrbanSTL (and occasionally the KCRag). Why can't both cities and the people that live in them find a different city to pick on and b**** about? The Midwest has plenty to choose from. Is it because STL and KC share a state? Or is it because we're afraid to attack sterile smaller cities like Des Moines, Indianapolis and Omaha? I personally prefer to attack Chicago over them all because of the pretentious snobby folk who call that place home.
800 Grand
This is a project I've known about for a while, but here we go. It will replace a dilapidated parking garage at the Southwest corner of 8th and Grand and will change the north facing skyline. It's the first true residential high-rise outside of the Power and Light District proposed within the Downtown Loop (the now cancelled LuxLiving Tower at 14th and Wyandotte does not count). It still has several hurdles to cross before breaking ground.
The 800 Grand project was formally announced at the State of Downtown event yesterday. According to some people I know, the room "fell silent in awe" at the project with many commenting that it was good to see such a prominent building proposed on the north side of the skyline and to see such a large building proposed outside of the Power and Light District. 25-stories, 300+ apartments, 24,000sf of retail space with a parking garage. Desire is for a Q3 2025 start. New renderings came as a result of the announcement. The neighboring Scarritt Building is likely going to be part of this overall project, meaning this block of downtown will be mostly transformed all at once (vacant buildings redeveloped + vacant garage demolished for new construction). The 800 Grand building could grow taller as the developer signaled that the height can go up to 385ft (which isn't rendered here).
Cordish won unanimous approval to establish a new PIEA District for 4 Light at today's PIEA meeting. Next stop is City Council. If the City Council approves of the project, it will start next year. The newest renderings also give a glimpse at "5 Light", which is proposed for the block where the Strata Office Tower was supposed to go a few years ago. That block is pre-engineered for a building to be built on top of it. 4 Light features 293 apartments, retail space, and parking in a 24-story building.
What are the odds 800 Grand project actually happens?
Just curious what KC has done and continues to do to make their Downtown boom. There was a time when downtown KC was as dead as STL's. Why are the "leaders" in
St. Louis not looking to replicate these steps?
Despite being completely surrounded by interstate, DTKC is much less of an island than DTSTL. Easy walking proximity to the Crossroads and River Market District is key here. Them not having a downtown stadium probably helps them here because there isn't such a demand for surface parking. The streetcar also helps vitality, and will help even more once the extension opens.
Downtown STL is very disconnected from the north, south, and east. Only recently the island started to connect better to the west, but still a long way to go densifying the central corridor. If only we didn't tear down the Mill Creek area or the very dense corridor between MLK and Cass...
That's why building these connections is so important. We need good infill north of Wash Ave, the Broadway/4th corridor, and the area between the Purina and Ameren campuses. What is in downtown matters, but what surrounds it is just as important.
800 Grand
This is a project I've known about for a while, but here we go. It will replace a dilapidated parking garage at the Southwest corner of 8th and Grand and will change the north facing skyline. It's the first true residential high-rise outside of the Power and Light District proposed within the Downtown Loop (the now cancelled LuxLiving Tower at 14th and Wyandotte does not count). It still has several hurdles to cross before breaking ground.
The 800 Grand project was formally announced at the State of Downtown event yesterday. According to some people I know, the room "fell silent in awe" at the project with many commenting that it was good to see such a prominent building proposed on the north side of the skyline and to see such a large building proposed outside of the Power and Light District. 25-stories, 300+ apartments, 24,000sf of retail space with a parking garage. Desire is for a Q3 2025 start. New renderings came as a result of the announcement. The neighboring Scarritt Building is likely going to be part of this overall project, meaning this block of downtown will be mostly transformed all at once (vacant buildings redeveloped + vacant garage demolished for new construction). The 800 Grand building could grow taller as the developer signaled that the height can go up to 385ft (which isn't rendered here).
What are the odds 800 Grand project actually happens?
Just curious what KC has done and continues to do to make their Downtown boom. There was a time when downtown KC was as dead as STL's. Why are the "leaders" in
St. Louis not looking to replicate these steps?
800 Grand has a higher likelihood of happening than most think. Reason being: few remaining vacant buildings in Downtown KC without redevelopment plans (that we know of). The remaining buildings are (ones with no known redevelopment plans bolded).
- Scarritt Building (connected to the 800 Grand project and will be redeveloped). - 901 Grand (all but 1 floor are vacant, and the floor that is occupied is occupied by the owner. The owner will not sell).
- Federal Reserve at 10th and Grand (from plan to become a hotel is dead. Currently being explored for redevelopment into apartments).
- Borel Building on Grand (planned to become the Kindler Hotel).
- Palace Clothing Company Building at 12th and Grand (plan stalled for redevelopment into a Canopy by Hilton Hotel). - Muehlebach Hotel on Baltimore (because it's subdivided as a "condo", redevelopment options are tough as you don't get control of the lobby or lower few floors).
- Aladdin Hotel on Wyandotte (redevelopment into around 120 apartments approved). - Centennial Building at 10th and Central (vacant - previously listed for sale). - Poindexter Building on Broadway (vacant - previously listed for sale). - Fashionbilt Building at 8th and Washington (vacant - for sale. Previously had a redevelopment plan for housing).
When you consider these things, developers are going to need to start looking at new construction. Add in the continued success Cordish has had with the Light Towers and Midland Lofts, and it might send the right message to developers to try for themselves. Granted, I don't think 800 Grand's rents will be as high as the Power and Light District's (location is everything), but it's success could very well kick off similarly sized projects around it.
As for what KC has done to make their downtown boom, it's not clear in my view. It might be more of a private sector thing than a city side.
GoHarvOrGoHome wrote:Despite being completely surrounded by interstate, DTKC is much less of an island than DTSTL. Easy walking proximity to the Crossroads and River Market District is key here. Them not having a downtown stadium probably helps them here because there isn't such a demand for surface parking. The streetcar also helps vitality, and will help even more once the extension opens.
Downtown STL is very disconnected from the north, south, and east. Only recently the island started to connect better to the west, but still a long way to go densifying the central corridor. If only we didn't tear down the Mill Creek area or the very dense corridor between MLK and Cass...
That's why building these connections is so important. We need good infill north of Wash Ave, the Broadway/4th corridor, and the area between the Purina and Ameren campuses. What is in downtown matters, but what surrounds it is just as important.
From the Missouri River to Liberty Memorial, it’s pretty much continuous activity aside from the North Loop. KC benefitted tremendously from the 7+ block P&L development and bulldozing a few key non-historic dilapidated mega garages. More recently, streetcar will extend that contiguous activity to UMKC
The FAA has approved the 500ft height request by EPC for a two-tower project at 1650 Broadway. Formal plans have yet to be submitted, but we have the conceptual rendering from April 2023 showing the project (rendered is a 400ft tall version). The site sits adjacent to the Kauffman Center and is on one of the highest elevation points in Downtown KC (meaning it'll appear to be the tallest building in the City from many angles).
I expect a formal announcement with the full scope, good renderings, and other details soon. I also expect the design to have been tweaked since early last year.
The FAA has approved the 500ft height request by EPC for a two-tower project at 1650 Broadway. Formal plans have yet to be submitted, but we have the conceptual rendering from April 2023 showing the project (rendered is a 400ft tall version). The site sits adjacent to the Kauffman Center and is on one of the highest elevation points in Downtown KC (meaning it'll appear to be the tallest building in the City from many angles).
I expect a formal announcement with the full scope, good renderings, and other details soon. I also expect the design to have been tweaked since early last year.
1650 Broadway.JPG
No new news has been released on this project and no permits or formal plans have been filed. After contacting the EPC Real Estate Group, right now the market will determine "the course or viability of the project. EPC is focused on several projects in development or under construction in Wichita at this time." They are also focusing on the Port KC development.
The amount of TOD they are producing with a transit system that doesn’t hold a candle to ours just really makes me sad. So many metrolink stations have easily developable lots for multi family.
Filling in their abandoned downtown and bottoms buildings, and ours continue to sit.
Man I was so optimistic about a year and a half ago…whew it’s been slow around here. I need some of this KC investment coming down the Missouri River soon for some 2025 optimism.
The amount of TOD they are producing with a transit system that doesn’t hold a candle to ours just really makes me sad. So many metrolink stations have easily developable lots for multi family.
Filling in their abandoned downtown and bottoms buildings, and ours continue to sit.
Man I was so optimistic about a year and a half ago…whew it’s been slow around here. I need some of this KC investment coming down the Missouri River soon for some 2025 optimism.
We have multiple big developments in holding patterns. New construction in Albion West End, BPV3 are both nearly guaranteed to happen but it's just a matter of when. AT&T, Mellinium, RWX are all not flashy but massive developments to fill. Recently there was a new construction on Spruce Street, Butler Brother's redevelopment, Foundry 2, and AC Hotels downtown and in Clayton. Jefferson Arms under construction right now.
None of this is super flashy but it's still real developments that have happened, are happening, will happen, or are working towards happening.
The amount of TOD they are producing with a transit system that doesn’t hold a candle to ours just really makes me sad. So many metrolink stations have easily developable lots for multi family.
Filling in their abandoned downtown and bottoms buildings, and ours continue to sit.
Man I was so optimistic about a year and a half ago…whew it’s been slow around here. I need some of this KC investment coming down the Missouri River soon for some 2025 optimism.
We have multiple big developments in holding patterns. New construction in Albion West End, BPV3 are both nearly guaranteed to happen but it's just a matter of when. AT&T, Mellinium, RWX are all not flashy but massive developments to fill. Recently there was a new construction on Spruce Street, Butler Brother's redevelopment, Foundry 2, and AC Hotels downtown and in Clayton. Jefferson Arms under construction right now.
None of this is super flashy but it's still real developments that have happened, are happening, will happen, or are working towards happening.
I agree with your overall sentiment that we’ve had a record of development to be proud of recently, but where are you hearing that some of our projects in a holding pattern currently are “nearly guaranteed to happen”? Particularly something like the Albion project.
The amount of TOD they are producing with a transit system that doesn’t hold a candle to ours just really makes me sad. So many metrolink stations have easily developable lots for multi family.
Filling in their abandoned downtown and bottoms buildings, and ours continue to sit.
Man I was so optimistic about a year and a half ago…whew it’s been slow around here. I need some of this KC investment coming down the Missouri River soon for some 2025 optimism.
We have multiple big developments in holding patterns. New construction in Albion West End, BPV3 are both nearly guaranteed to happen but it's just a matter of when. AT&T, Mellinium, RWX are all not flashy but massive developments to fill. Recently there was a new construction on Spruce Street, Butler Brother's redevelopment, Foundry 2, and AC Hotels downtown and in Clayton. Jefferson Arms under construction right now.
None of this is super flashy but it's still real developments that have happened, are happening, will happen, or are working towards happening.
I agree with your overall sentiment that we’ve had a record of development to be proud of recently, but where are you hearing that some of our projects in a holding pattern currently are “nearly guaranteed to happen”? Particularly something like the Albion project.
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Pretty sure Albion has an approved incentive package and was trying to get going before the interest rates shot up but was stalled by their Alderperson. Hard pressed to drop a plan for luxary apartments in the CWE after you've gotten the city to give you incentives. So yea I still think there's a pretty good shot it happens, just a matter of time. Maybe "nearly guaranteed" is too much though. BPV3 though is nearly guaranteed IMO.
The Planning Commission unanimously approved of the Streetcar Lofts proposal. The project will replace 2 parking lots and 2 grassy lots on 31st Street with 240 apartments and 235 parking spaces. There are 5 buildings in this project and each has a slightly different design. It’s one of the better proposals to be brought forward recently. Rosemann and Associates is the architect. Sunflower Development is the developer.
Streetcar Lofts joins ArriveKC (373 units) as being an immediate neighbor to the Union Hill Streetcar stop and joins the Levy at Martini Corner (158 units) as a new addition to Union Hill and Martini Corner.
The Planning Commission unanimously approved of the Streetcar Lofts proposal. The project will replace 2 parking lots and 2 grassy lots on 31st Street with 240 apartments and 235 parking spaces. There are 5 buildings in this project and each has a slightly different design. It’s one of the better proposals to be brought forward recently. Rosemann and Associates is the architect. Sunflower Development is the developer.
Streetcar Lofts joins ArriveKC (373 units) as being an immediate neighbor to the Union Hill Streetcar stop and joins the Levy at Martini Corner (158 units) as a new addition to Union Hill and Martini Corner.
Jealous of this infill. Would take this in a heartbeat down Debaliviere, down several stretches of Delmar, and several other locations.
