Arch_Genesis wrote:innov8ion - plush, forumla etc. all that should tell you is that you haven't solved any of your problems simply by closing Lure, but I guess its alright if they're not in your neighborhood?
Our problems are the clubs and patrons that have little respect for others and the sanctity of human life. I think people are starting to understand that this kind of nonsense doesn't belong in a civil neighborhood. As for your last comment, you never answered whether you would welcome this level of violence in yours. No, right? And to answer your question quite plainly, this behavior is unacceptable anywhere.
Your attempts and those of Lure to divide a community through unfounded accusations of racism are inapt and reflect poorly upon you. Reflect on that for a while...
Arch_Genesis wrote:innov8ion - plush, forumla etc. all that should tell you is that you haven't solved any of your problems simply by closing Lure, but I guess its alright if they're not in your neighborhood?
Yep, pretty much. What's wrong with that? Why do I have to accept a trash magnet in my neighborhood just because you are concerned that the trash won't have anywhere else to go?
Arch_Genesis wrote:Moorlander - I read a press release from Lure detailing the measurements they were taking in July to curb violence. I guess they didn't take them? Maybe I'm misinformed here but I thought there weren't any incidents after the shooting at cops.
This has been going on for longer than 3 months. Why wasn't Lure "taking measures" two years ago?
Arch_Genesis wrote:Moorlander - I read a press release from Lure detailing the measurements they were taking in July to curb violence. I guess they didn't take them? Maybe I'm misinformed here but I thought there weren't any incidents after the shooting at cops.
This has been going on for longer than 3 months. Why wasn't Lure "taking measures" two years ago?
This has been my point since this all started. The owners of Lure opperated with no concern for neighboring businesses and residences for far too long. At the last moment when they are truly in trouble, they finally change their tune.
Everyone is so fixated on race as the motivating factor, and I could see where one would find that to be the reason Lure closed, on the surface. However, I think the dichotomy exists more in affluence or wealth. Club Lure and the events surrounding it could drive away many upper echelon tax payers. It just so happens that more often than not the higher tiered tax payers aren't tolerant of Club Lure's problems. Again, the power of gentrification at work.
I would bolster this hypothesis by saying that in no other period of time has downtown had more a)residents b) amenities that would attract more residents c)opportunity to attract more residents. We as a city have to maintain our upward trajectory.
NIMBY mentality on the part of Wash Ave residents? Yes. Unquestionably.
Wrong? From the perspective of the greater good for downtown, not at all.
ttricamo wrote:Everyone is so fixated on race as the motivating factor...
That's a bit of an overstatement. More like Club Lure and its few supporters. This soon to be former club has chosen to deflect responsibility every step along the way. You reap what you sow, I guess.
^Yeah, if you're concerned with race and gentrification in St. Louis then you must be a supporter of Club Lure.
Again, this thread began with images of beaters on 22's, people complaining about the dress of patrons, and Hip Hop nights. So the issue might have been about disruptive behavior, yet we should question some correlating lawlessness with certain stereotypical images of black men. This criminal activity isn't an issue in areas which aren't specifically targeted by the City as worth saving. They do not receive media attention. I wonder if proponents of closing Lure will push City Hall to address these problems Citywide, or post videos to YouTube of drunken white suburbanites disrupting their pristine street? But it's hard to narrow down which establishment those drunken suburbanites came from, though we all know those blacks came from Lure.
The fact remains that Washington Avenue primarily caters to white people. African Americans should be extra careful ensuring they are law abiding and as white as possible in their behavior as to not offend the loft dwellers -- who have taken up ownership of this area. Business owners should be put on notice as any criminal activity within the downtown area will automatically be tied to the demographic mix of patrons. Hence we will see these Hip Hop nights disappear, the number of African Americans decreasing to a less threatening number, and the problem goes somewhere else. Therefore loft dwellers, as most St. Louisans operate, don't see any immediate concern as the problem isn't within their neighborhood boundaries. Thus it will stay off the agenda until this happens again in some protected, important neighborhood.
Doug wrote:Again, this thread began with images of beaters on 22's, people complaining about the dress of patrons, and Hip Hop nights. So the issue might have been about disruptive behavior, yet we should question some correlating lawlessness with certain stereotypical images of black men.
The childish images you reference should not be condoned. The fact that some people are idiots doesn't invalidate the issues the judge considered and ruled upon.
Doug wrote:The fact remains that Washington Avenue primarily caters to white people.
Baiting. Washington Avenue is multicultural and caters to various demographics.
Doug wrote:African Americans should be extra careful ensuring they are law abiding and as white as possible as to not offend the loft dwellers -- who have taken up ownership of this area.
Baiting and purely offensive
Doug wrote:This criminal activity isn't an issue in areas which aren't specifically targeted by the City as worth saving. They do not receive media attention. I wonder if proponents of closing Lure will push City Hall to address these problems Citywide, or post videos to YouTube of drunken white suburbanites disrupting their pristine street? But it's hard to narrow down which establishment those drunken suburbanites came from, though we all know those blacks came from Lure.
More baiting. You should be ashamed of yourself, Doug...
I am not "baiting" anything. You simply believe we live in a post-racial City where that's not worthy of consideration. It's a fact on the record that City officials and proponents of closing Lure used African American music preference, clothing, and vehicles as evidence the wrong element was in the neighborhood. This arrival was blamed upon on a few clubs again due to hip hop night. So the solution, to remove this bad element and obvious crime that follows it, must be to close the businesses that bring the "trash" into the neighborhood. I don't think there's ever been a study tying hip hop music to violent behavior?
Why were other clubs not closed when they had as many or more citations? Why are you not forming a truth commission to videotape drunken issues at Lucas Park Grille?
Doug wrote:I am not "baiting" anything. You simply believe we live in a post-racial City where that's not worthy of consideration. It's a fact on the record that City officials and proponents of closing Lure used African American music preference, clothing, and vehicles as evidence the wrong element was in the neighborhood. This arrival was blamed upon on a few clubs again due to hip hop night. So the solution, to remove this bad element and obvious crime that follows it, must be to close the businesses that bring the "trash" into the neighborhood. I don't think there's ever been a study tying hip hop music to violent behavior?
It's baiting. What you say has no basis in truth. You have a chip on your shoulder and make ridiculous, offensive claims without providing any evidence.
^No, I have the ability to read the comments on this forum, the media coverage of this event, comments from City Hall, and responses posted on various other websites.
If this was only about law and order then there would be a general crackdown on Washington Avenue and many other business owners would be on notice and closed. This only went as far as it did because of the perception that African American youth are a threat and we can't have them undermining our all important Washington Avenue, which we hold up tirelessly as being the key example of St. Louis' revitalization. If a bunch of hoodlums, especially black, ruin its image then how can we get suburbanites to relocate?
Doug wrote:^No, I have the ability to read the comments on this forum, the media coverage of this event, comments from City Hall, and responses posted on various other websites.
Nice trick but the judge's ruling wasn't based upon any of this tangential information. It was based upon actual evidence. And what comments from City Hall are you speaking of?
Doug wrote:If this was only about law and order then there would be a general crackdown on Washington Avenue and many other business owners would be on notice and closed. This only went as far as it did because of the perception that African American youth are a threat and we can't have them undermining our all important Washington Avenue, which we hold up tirelessly as being the key example of St. Louis' revitalization. If a bunch of hoodlums, especially black, ruin its image then how can we get suburbanites to relocate
I agree with you fully (but only if I were to ignore all evidence.) Evidence is an inconvenient truth for you, Doug, isn't it? In an earlier post in this thread, he stated (before he removed it) that he practices the politics of distraction to help further his goals. Distraction aka misdirection or sly manipulation. This is why you're little more than a forum troll, Doug.
The Count wrote:Doug is obviously a smart guy. However, he's so intent on promoting his crusade against racial disparity (in itself a noble cause) that he's distorting any non-racial issue that involves African-Americans to further his agenda. This will ultimately hurt not only his own cause, it will also hamper progress towards a solution.
Doug wrote:Again, this thread began with images of beaters on 22's, people complaining about the dress of patrons, and Hip Hop nights. So the issue might have been about disruptive behavior, yet we should question some correlating lawlessness with certain stereotypical images of black men.
The childish images you reference should not be condoned. The fact that some people are idiots doesn't invalidate the issues the judge considered and ruled upon.
Excuse me. I posted those pictures of the cars on 22's and they were in no way racist or childish.
Has anyone looked at the percentage of reported violent crime on these "hip-hop" nights to the percentage of reported violent crime on "non hip-hop" nights? I know that there are most likely much more nights there are "non hip-hop," but I wonder what the results would be if you took a random sample of equal data points. If the proportion is larger on either side, this would indicate a fairly direct statistical correlation, and would pretty much end this "racist or non-racist" argument.
^ Sorry, but the above methodology doesn't appear to prove your thesis. Negative conduct occurs not just on Thursdays, but each of the other days they are open. Below is a taste of the hospitality that Club Lure shares with us.
The conduct of the operators of Lure, and its patrons (for which Lure is responsible), has been abysmal and is deteriorating. In our opinion, the operators of Lure have never embraced the concept that they are part of a community, and that they need to adjust their behaviors in order to mitigate any negative impacts of their operation on their neighbors. Examples of the detrimental impacts of Lure on our neighborhood include, but are not limited, to the following:
- On June 11, 2010, at around 2 AM, police that were responding to a fight immediately after an event at Lure were fired on by individuals wielding assault rifles
- On January 1, 2009, a bar fight involving patrons of Lure spilled out into the residential lobby of the Jack Thompson Square condominiums, resulting in blood spraying the floor, walls, and furniture of the lobby
- Fights and shouting matches, particularly in early hours of the morning after Lure’s patrons are ejected from the club, are a regular occurrence
- In their own lobby, which serves as the emergency exit for Lure, the residents of the Jack Thompson Square condos have been threatened and intimidated by drunken patrons of Lure, who casually use that lobby for reasons other than emergency exit
- The St. Louis Metropolitan Police have responded to calls for service associated with Lure at least 50 times, diverting our police from other tasks essential to keeping our neighborhood safe
- On numerous occasions, trash and broken glass associated with Lure have littered the front entry to the Jack Thompson Square condominiums (which is also the emergency exit for Lure); trash and leaflets advertising events at Lure are continually found in the parking lot of the Jack Thompson Square condos
- Cigarette smoke from Lure continually escapes Lure into the lobby of the Jack Thompson Square condos, through the elevator shaft and into the upper floor residential lobbies and condominiums, subjecting the building residents to the health hazard and disgusting odor of intense second hand smoke; Lure has consistently failed to correct this problem despite many requests
- Lure has regularly coned off up to 15 parking spaces for their valet service, without having a permit to do so, occupying parking spaces that are essential to other neighborhood retailers
- The fire alarm for the Jack Thompson Square building has been pulled by Lure patrons or otherwise set off so often that the residents of the building have stopped responding to the alarm, placing the residents at elevated risk in the event of a real fire
- Minors sneak into Lure through the rear entrance of the club by breaking into the residential lobby of the Jack Thompson Square condos
- The music played at Lure is so loud that residents on the upper floors of the building feel their walls and furniture vibrate throughout of the night
- Vomit is regularly found in the lobby of the Jack Thompson Square condos, and drunken patrons of Lure are regularly found passed out in the lobby or on the building stairs adjacent to the lobby
- Furniture and floor tiles have been broken in the lobby of the Jack Thompson Square condos by Lure patrons
This list of behavioral problems is by no means all inclusive. And, many of these problems have been regularly brought to the attention to the operators of Lure, with effectively no response.
In fact, the only real response the operators of Lure have offered are public accusations that the entire neighborhood is racist and only responding to the presence of black patrons at Lure on its weekly hip-hop nights. This a classic response of a club operator who is unwilling to take responsibility for its behaviors and is trying to use groundless accusations to shift blame away from itself. The problematic behaviors of the patrons and owners of Lure happen on all the nights the club is open, not just the nights featuring hip-hop music, and stretch far into the past. Moreover, Downtown’s residents have chosen to move Downtown precisely because of their embrace of diversity of all kinds and their appreciation for living in close proximity to other humans, whatever their race, class, or beliefs. The calculated leveling of accusations of racism on a blanket basis are just another example of the lack of respect the owners of Lure have for our community and the shameless manipulations they will engage in to protect their selfish interests. From the perspective of this group of neighbors, the problem here is bad behavior, and the failure of Lure’s owner to control that bad behavior, not race.
Moorlander wrote:
innov8ion wrote:
Doug wrote:Again, this thread began with images of beaters on 22's, people complaining about the dress of patrons, and Hip Hop nights. So the issue might have been about disruptive behavior, yet we should question some correlating lawlessness with certain stereotypical images of black men.
The childish images you reference should not be condoned. The fact that some people are idiots doesn't invalidate the issues the judge considered and ruled upon.
Excuse me. I posted those pictures of the cars on 22's and they were in no way racist or childish.
At all. End of story.
No offense, but isn't this an example of frat-boy humor? How is it relevant?
Not sure how that could be considered 'frat humor.' I guess once you become a super mod you get even more condescending. Proceed with the club talk gentlemen.
Doug wrote:It's a fact on the record that City officials and proponents of closing Lure used African American music preference, clothing, and vehicles as evidence the wrong element was in the neighborhood.
No, they used gunfire as their evidence. Apparently you haven't read the ruling.
Doug wrote:If this was only about law and order then there would be a general crackdown on Washington Avenue and many other business owners would be on notice and closed.
Moorlander wrote:Not sure how that could be considered 'frat humor.' I guess once you become a super mod you get even more condescending. Proceed with the club talk gentlemen.
No hard feelings but this is the picture you posted, right? How is it relevant to the discussion? I realize you were trying to be funny, but in the process you've offended many people. While you have the right to do so, others have the right to call this out as sophomoric or frat-boy humor. If speaking out against this is condescending, so be it.
So posting a picture of the type of car that drives down Wash Ave with their speakers blasting is sophomoric and frat-boy humor? Downtown2007's post is the one calling out G-rides and such... Calm down INNO, that picture is funny. Anyone who paints there car in a McDonald's theme deserves to be laughed at. White or Black.
Sometimes this forum is too damn politcally correct.
Moorlander wrote:So posting a picture of the type of car that drives down Wash Ave with their speakers blasting is sophomoric and frat-boy humor? Downtown2007's post is the one calling out G-rides and such... Calm down INNO, that picture is funny. Anyone who paints there car in a McDonald's them deserves to be laughed at. White or Black.
Sometimes this forum is too damn politcally correct for it's good.
Yes.
If you're going to paint your car in a clown theme, don't be offended when people laugh.
Moorlander wrote:So posting a picture of the type of car that drives down Wash Ave with their speakers blasting is sophomoric and frat-boy humor? Downtown2007's post is the one calling out G-rides and such... Calm down INNO, that picture is funny. Anyone who paints there car in a McDonald's them deserves to be laughed at. White or Black.
Sometimes this forum is too damn politcally correct for it's good.
Yes.
If you're going to paint your car in a clown theme, don't be offended when people laugh.
Moorlander wrote:So posting a picture of the type of car that drives down Wash Ave with their speakers blasting is sophomoric and frat-boy humor? Downtown2007's post is the one calling out G-rides and such... Calm down INNO, that picture is funny. Anyone who paints there car in a McDonald's theme deserves to be laughed at. White or Black.
Sometimes this forum is too damn politcally correct.
Yeah G-rides. I was calling it how I saw it. God forbid someone actually tell the truth.
